The morality of child benefit money

Topic split: General information about Elterngeld and Kindergeld

Kindergeld is the worse thing that has EVER BEEN INVENTED...Just because you have children does not mean that all Taxpayers should pay for your KIDS. My upbringing was not paid for by the government. Whenever I see a child on the street in Germany I am thinking how the entire populace is being taxed to death because of these children. ...
AND staying out of work because you have had a child . PLEASE
I am getting sicker by the second here . No one MADE you have that child .
If you can not afford to have children THEN DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN.

Londine, Who the hell do u think is going to pay your pension for you, look after u when you are old and grey and probably peeing in your pants yourself, pompous prat!

And so u should be taxed to the max and by the way I have four children and am a stay at home mom.
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your huge contribution to the Tax office Just think of it your hard earned cash fitting snugly in to my pocket every month.

Miss Prim

Prim
. AS I SAID before , IF you cant afford to have children DO NOT have them. I wouldn't dream of asking someone else to support my children, I am not that selfish or that low class I have enough money to see me to the grave and I certainly do no tntend to donate one Yen, Euro, Pound or Dollar to fund your family . If you are expecting the rest of us to do so then all you are is a leech, sucking the system for all its worth. .
I am fed up with people having children and those people expecting the rest of us to pay for their children. Good God, the idea is disgusting

Get a life Londine! sad sorry soul. By the way I work from home and legally too, don't have enough money to see me to the grave.
Since u have u must be paying a tidy sum to the tax office every year, good for u. If u live and work here u do realise must pay tax.
If not then... naughty, naughty! Now thats a leech if ever and it's illegal !

Miss Prim
I really do think that you are the most arrogant person on earth to think that THE WORLD should raise your children. You chose to have them and you should FINANCE that choice and not even think that anyone else should help you.
No I am not a sad soul, in fact a great deal of people have indicated over the years that they would love to be JUST LIKE ME.
I too am very successful in my chosen career . I feel that taxes should go to help those who are have found themselves suddenly unemployed but through no fault of their own and to help the disabled. I do not think taxes should be used by those who insist that staying at home and dipping from the public funds is far more lucrative than a job and certainly no tax money should be used to fund KINDERGELD. Millions of people all over the world raise children with no help from anyone so this is not an impossible task.
If you didnt have all those children you would HAVE ENOUGH money to see you through
Sorry Prim but great multitudes here in Germany are fed up with supporting other peoples children and there is certainly a major groundswell of thought that this insanity has to stop.

Oh Londine! It's you again, I've missed u. You sound anoyed. Don't be, life is too short and I guess u have lived many years already and hopefully many to come. U don't sound as if you have children yourself that is why I am sure that u have absolutely no Idea what it takes nowadays to raise our children to the best of our abilities. I can not complain about being bored or having a large void in my life.
Running a household on your own and working part time is a full time job and u can be happy that u are in good health at your age.
By the way my daughter 11 is playing the Piano tonight at her school concert for an audience of roughly 150 people. I love her as I do all my children and am proud to be their mother. I consider this as being a great achievment for her age. U will probably never experience what I am going to feel tonight when I hear her play.
Forgive me, but you do sound like an extreme shallow person with no substance what so ever.That makes me feel genuinely very, very sorry for you.
If u have time, Listen to the lyrics of this song "The Rose" sang by Bette midler.
Got to go now.

Miss Prim

Now I am developing a mental picture of you as you are developing a mental picture of me .
Actually , except for your expectations that others should subsidize your having children I really do not think that we are very different.
I . AND MY FAMILY, have certainly done our share of volunteer work, committee work . fundraising , etc to support the fine arts , both Visual and Performing , which we strongly feel can enhance the lives of everyone. We are very proud of a recently completed fine arts centre to which we contibuted many hours of volunteer work to make a reality.
My congratulations to your daughter on her concert debut tonight . I have been on both of those seats, as the student performer and the proud observer in the audience.
YOU don't think I know how difficult it is to raise a child today. HA HA HA
Of course it is but again I would never dream of expecting the government to contribute other peoples money to me for my children. I simply was not raised to expect handouts. I was raised to the understanding that I generate my own Financial security ...never once expecting anyone else , including my parents , to contribute. Society becomes very dangerous when people expect handouts. I suppose they use the phrase, " its owed ot me " or " Its my right to have.."

No no NOTHING is owed to you or to me or to " them ". If we don't do things for ourselves we cannot and should not rely on others. That is just downright " tacky ".
By the way, I sent myself to college using money I had earned as a teenager. My parents never wrote one check for my education all the way through my graduate school. As you can tell I did not go University here in Germany ,I received my education in the US so none of this German cheap university costs. I paid many many many many thousands, all of which I generated myself. I do not expect others to pay for me and never have. And you may ask why did I do that. Yes I could have gone along a far less expensive course of study but there were certain Professors who had a background of study that I knew would be very meaningful to my intended professional goals and so I went for it ... and I have never regretted my decision.

By the way , We never know do we, but I assume that I have quite a few years ahead of me . I am approaching middle age.

No, I really dont have a shallow life . nor do I think that you do. You should be proud of your children because your Pride will enhance their self esteem and hopefully help to make them independent enough that they will not grow up expecting handouts from others. Make them independent , not dependent . You can do it .

Londine

OH Prim
I just realized that you are in Bonn
My cousin lived there for many years.
See , we have a connection...
Londine

Although I don't approve of high tax, controlling governments I am completely in favour of helping families out, even with more money than they currently get.

Londine's view is very naive. The next generation is an incredibly important part of the future of our society, and goes far beyond having people to pay your pension. Just one example would be that if parents have enough money so that they don't have to spend their time working two jobs to make ends meet, then the kids won't be running around on the street causing trouble and eventually getting thrown in jail, all at tax payers expense. All this impacts a society, and I think people should start to realise that when people are bringing up kids they are really doing a lot of work for the greater good. I think they should continue to get money from everyone to keep up this work.

I say get rid of all the other crap that we pay taxes for here and double the kindergeld allowance. And I say this as a single guy losing almost 50% of his wage each month to such things. I really think other societies like the UK and the US are falling apart because of the lack of support given to families, and because of this everyone suffers with increased crime and supplementary costs, like a reduced capable work force, higher jail costs, higher crime etc..

Kindergeld is a good investment in the future.

Londine, Everything we do is subsidised. Your health insurance is subsidised, your public transport, your roads, your rubbish being picked up, the policing of the streets, the putting out of fires, your basic schooling, the care for those who are elderly. Its called a society. Its not about being independant. Its being interdependant.

Gideon
I don't mind subsidies and taxes going to roads , public transport, etc . I do mind me paying for someone elses little screaming no neck monsters ( to quote and old friend who had the odd first name of Tennessee ) If you have children , Fine . You pay for the children. Do not be so arrogant because you have had children as to expect anyone else to pay for them. Handouts handouts handouts . a welfare society which is no society at all.

So you've covered yourself for the costs of being looked after in your old age? Every Penny? Even if you become a 100% pflegerfall? (Sorry been here way to long to know the english word of by heart!)

If society was so built as your independant mind would like it, then each person would decide upon what exactly their tax money is spent; the carless would of course neglect the road bit, the hippies the defence bit, the childless anything to do with the children bit, those aged 70 anything to do with the future bit, and of course the anarchists would say fuck you all.

We live here in a society which has deceided that children are important, just as important as roads and stuff. Brutaly put in a non-fluffy way, children are a country's natural resource. Without which a society inbalances, and its status quo can no longer be kept. Part of this resource policy is a minimal state investment in child care. It isnt a subsidy, it's an investment. If you work it out it's offsetting 30K euros against future lifetime tax earnings per child.

On a side note, there are also those who believe that those who are childless should not recieve any state help in their old age as they have not contributed to the resources needed, ie future workers and tax payers, in order to sustain that.

For arguments sake, I would quite willingly accept the loss of the 250 Euros a month (which goes pretty much straight into kindergarten fees anyway, bugger) if I know that those who are childless have no access to any state help whatso ever, when their health fails and times turn bad for them in old age. I dont mind paying for roads, but single 70 year olds in hospitals...

I seriously doubt any of our own private insurances realisticly covers the cost we will impose on the state in our old age.

I'm all for high taxes to cover all kinds of stuff including kindergeld. As others have mentioned - its what makes a society


mind you, I always think these sorts of statements are a bit strange - do people really expect their kids to look after them 24/7 when they are old - thats quite selfish I think

No but at least we've provided the tax payers to cover the costs we cause!

I can't believe anyone has kids as some kind of altruistic contribution to the development of a country or to act as a tax payer either though - its all about personal pleasure (which there is nothing wrong with, but why not just admit it)

My Ma looked after us when we were helpless and peeing our pants, I think she can expect the same from us. Not 24/7 though, divide that by five (that she brought up mainly as a single parent).

yeah it would be nice if kids helped you when you got older but would/should one really demand it? A parent has a duty to take care of children it has produced but I don't see why there should be any duty in the opposite direction. Of course most kids will do it but it should in no way be a must. Probably way off topic

But the thing in question here is whether the state should in anyway invest in children, my or your personal feelings have go nothing to do with it. The state has deceided it must support children to keep the human resources available for the future of the country. That is the state's descision is it not?

oh I agree totally with you about support from the state, I'd happily raise child support more - I was focusing very much on that 1 quote from primrose

I'm a big fan of taxes

BR have you seen the divorce rates? Care isn't just financial, being a parent isn't just about putting bread on the table. There are alot of single parents out there wishing the "other parent" would hold up their part of the duty bargin.


If you're a good and selfless parent you wont need to ask, they'll do it because you gave them everything, and continued to help them not only in childhood, but through all their lifes as much as you could. (And hell it's a free baby sitter!)

Of all the taxes I pay, the ones that go into helping and looking after our society are the best. I just have a problem knowing which ones they are. I'd hate europe to end up like the states.

Here's another vote for eliminating state funded pension. We should all be funding our own retirement and there's no reason for us to be living as pflegefälle. Who wants to keep living when you can no longer take care of yourself? There's absolutely no reason that we all have to live to 90 years old. That's a lot more selfish than expecting others to pay for your children.

If I get sick past a certain age I just want to be left alone to die.

The reason and reasoning behind kindergeld, subsidized daycare etc is very simple. Germany is not producing enough children to keep the economy afloat long term and there fore subsidies are required to encourage more children. The more money you give parents to have kids the more kids you have. Has worked wonders in France, the birth rate and numbers of kids has shot up. If anything the money given is too low, they should follow the example of other countries and give large bounes (say 5.000 euros) to anyone having a 3rd or 4th child that is on top of kindergeld. The other big thing that the German government needs to work on is encouraging working Moms, that's a large part of the reason why couples are for going childless, Women are given a choice, Motherhood or Carrier and we all know what Germans think of working Moms.

Childless and happy for it.

Either way we have massive world overpopulation, so it's just WRONG.

I don't think that Europe is contributing all that much to world over population. Most people these days don't have more than 2 kids, and in the overall picture this drops the population over time because of all the people who have one kid, or don't have any. Economically, many bad things would happen if the next generation was only half the size of the current one.

If someone wants to give me money (i.e. Kindergeld) for the children I planned to have anyway, I'm not going to say no.

Focusing only on Europe is very short-sighted and it bothers me greatly that many people including our government can't see beyond our own boarders for the greater good. The world has a huge problem with overpopulation and this is going to effect us in Europe soon enough.

Not if we put up some more fences

Joking aside, you're right.. it is a big problem on the world scale..

Kindergeld is definitely not an investment . An Investment brings in financial rewards that are bankable . Kindergeld is simply pouring money into a bottomless ( and THANKLESS ) pit. I say thankless because of these people who think ITS OWED to them. That's thankless
Germany would be fine financially if they got rid of a lot of mess the government has decided that it should provided for all these types who do not have the courage or talents or wits to provide for themselves and their families.
Yes , I do have enough to live on quite nicely simply because I havent wasted my resources on other peoples children.
Im still worrying about Mr Single paying fifty percent in taxes. That well known tropical resort mentioned frequently in the Bible would freeze solid before I would ever pay fifty percent in taxes.
Not only is kindergeld rather disgusting but also these German students whining about the cost of going to a university.
( and again expecting tax payers to fund them until age thirty )
I cant decide why so many people are worried about their "old age" Maybe you are worrying because you havent provided for yourselves and are desperately seeking funds from elsewhere

If your a libertarian than you need to live in somewhere other than western Europe (edit Canada the States, Australia New Zealand etc). Kindergeld (or what ever the term is in the country you live in) is an investment in the future, it's a well known fact that Europe's population is declining and it will cause long term problems for the economy. France has managed to reverse the trend by giving mothers alot of financial support. As populations grow richer they naturally tend to have fewer children. Even immigrants that come from areas with large populations (say middle east Gaza where they have 6-7 kids) quickly go native and have only a child or two.

I'd hate europe to end up like the states.

and look what the states are spending their tax payers money on... and the lives of their young being sqandered on USA's pure greed! not to mention their Ozone friendlness.

Prim

Oh Primmy
You have just sunk to a new low. Don't tell me that you are also naive enough to be worried about this global warming trend. ? Years ago ,before cars, factory pollution, people etc. the north pole was covered with vegetation. There is a warming trend but it is a natural cycle.
I suspect that you and others like you have been sadly influenced by some unfortunate little bespectacled socialist or even communist professor. I can just imagine ... Wrinkled corduroy trousers and sandals, bad hair , and worse haircuts. ( if any ) munching away on granola because " whatever is good for a cow must be good for me too". ( well maybe it is if you want a shape like a refridgerator and drooping breasts ) and the sad thing is you took all of what this pitiful almost subhuman apparition said to heart.
Good Lord. If I didn't like a professor I made an appointment with with him and either seduced him or had him fired. I certainly did not take what he said to heart if he was wrong or was trying to pull me down to his own sad little social level . I assume that you may be of European origins and well Europeans just take like too seriously, loosen up and have fun, you only live once. I mean as I travel and do business here I have NEVER seen such carrying on over subjects such as politics, environment , government . ...ad nauseum. Im thinking " didnt any of their mothers teach them ANYTHING about proper conversations in social settings." I guess not .
Well I am off for the weekend . I have to go to a very nice annual Ball.
Catch you next week.
Londine

Londine, your bum looks too big in those views.

I think we might have found BadBob's perfect partner here..


I don't like to class all American's like this, cause there are certainly a lot who think the opposite to you. But in the scheme of things, I often see things this way. America, and a lot of American's, are like the typical teenager. They think they know everything, not really willing to take advice off anyone, act irresponsibly a lot and disregard important dangers with the "it'll be alright, stop worrying, just chill out" kind of attitude. As long as everything is going ok in their immediate surroundings, they don't really give too much of a shit about anything else.

Europe is like the grown up, who has experience under his belt, learnt from his mistakes and thinks how to preempt possible mistakes in the future while make considered choices on issues that affect him and the world around him.

You should think about this analogy and then decide where you want to sit. I, for one, cannot stand teenagers.

yet still wants to encourage its people to procreate by doling out familiengeld thus contributing to global overpopulation which could easily be remedied by relaxing immigration laws.

Sometimes mum and dad aren't all together that wise either.

My point is that I think the European point of view is, for the most part, more considered when it comes to the problems and potential problems of the world.

Bottomless? Au contraire, child benefit helps look after a lot of baby bottoms.

If your parents thought like that you'd not be here, saving us nonsense.

Please...without children there is no nation! Without that you can forget about everything. Stop being selfish!
The governments has *some* responsibility to urge pople to have kids.

So you don't want to pay for other people's children but you want other people to pay so you can drive?


Your knowledge of Geography and Botany is shocking.

I agree with kindergeld to help raise a child, but I dont think that their should be a cash bonus for your 3rd or 4th child as was suggested above.

I dont think that ones ability to raise a child should be decided based on income. We have a society in which more and more people are choosing not to have children, and I have no problem with that, if you don't want a kid dont have one; however, if someone wants and will love a child then something as petty as money should have nothing to do with it. But without government subsidies thats what happens

Let me guess: You are a Republican and have only been here a short time, right? Do Americans a favor, get educated before you spout shit!

I am not Republican, or American, and I also don't favour my tax euros being spent to support someone elses kids! I have no issues with subsidies to schools and education- we all benefit, but why should I have to pay to put supper on someone elses table? If they cannot afford to feed their family they should have thought about that before they had a family.

So, where do you want your tax money to go? I am sure there is someone somewhere that will complain about that too. Get a clue, the future of this world is with our children. It is easy to say relax the immigration laws and that will solve the problem, but then only those that reproduce like rabbits will take over the world. I don't know about you, but I don't want the damn Catholics getting ahold of the world again. The over and under populated countries need to do something. To let all those poor immigrants into Germany or any other western country will burden the tax system to take care of whole families and not just the kids born to the natives. Economy 101. You cannot look only at the small picture. The big picture is where it is at and it is soo much bigger than you think. Its a difficult issue, but not to be solved by bitching about small percentages of tax dollars going to promote an increase of birth rates at home. In your elder flower years, you will want those tax paying citizens and to bitch about them now is to only look at a very minimalistic aspect of the much larger picture.

It's definitely catching on.

hope you feel better letting all that out! now take a deep breath, because you are so arrogant. I live in this country, I pay taxes, I cannot vote here, but screw you for not liking MY OPINION! I thought this was an open board, different opinions are welcome, oh, maybe only if they fit the 'eurovol' way of thinking.
Thanks for being concerned about me in my 'elderflower' years, but I have been saving in my private pension since I was in Uni, maybe other people that had done that too, wouldn't be saying we need the kids to pay our way later.
There is always two sides of the coin!

Hmmm, interesting that this investment in the future doesn't extend to educating these kids as per the uni thread the other day.

Touchy aren't we (unlike what you just did, I won't get into personal things, but I see a whole can of worms there that I could easily open up). So, what do you want done with the tax money? It is a simple question. Attack me all you want, but I now make you Queen of the world, now solve its problems oh wise one. We are waiting. Tell us what you want? And be sure to include the part where everyone does the right thing because your wisdom is soo overpowering that naturally they will fall in line without a fight.

What should our tax dollars go to in YOUR OPINION?

I think most of them should just stay where they came from.

Well said Gideon. My sentiments exactly.

Well, that is a thought, but have you thought about pay as you go schemes then? I mean, somebody has got to be paid for the things you take for granted.
Think about a government that is not funded. What could they do with no money and how could they do it? What would the user cost be?
For example, the roads are cleared of snow and I drive to work. Who pays for my street to be cleared, how do we share the costs of the main arteries and what about the fact that I travel some roads shared by hundreds and some shared by thousands? How is this all gonna work? Oh, and I can't run my business without my employees who travel various roads too. What if they aren't willing to pay, do the roads go without because some refuse to pay because they say they will stay home when it snows. What about when I am sick, do I have to get a note from the doctor to say that I didn't use the roads on that day.
Fuck it, I will just pay taxes and put my two cents into electing people who will do the right thing. That to me seems so much easier, but then again I am logical and I know that others are not. You get what you pay for is not only a maxim of business, but of life and taxes. Don't like the way those taxes are being used, then do something where it counts. You do not have to be a voting citizen to send a letter to Ude or Stoiber or Merkel. Oh yeah and guess what? You can even write them in English believe it or not. These people know that there is a huge expat community in Germany and they know that it is growing. They also know that you have an influence on those that can vote. You have a voice, I suggest you use it if something bothers you soo much. Bitching might be fun, but it doesn't change a thing unless you put it to paper and send it to someone who is part of the system. I suggest sending Dr Rainer Stinner a letter because he seems to like to hear from the expats. He seems to care.

@Marie and Gideo: I would have to disagree entirely
I don't want to go into this in detail, but I don't really think that is true, just as an observation.

It's exactly the other way round. Single people are subsidising health care for your children, and heavily so.