New tuition fees for university

I read recently heard that it cost c. 40.000$ a year to send a kid to good college in the States. I hope my kids decide to study here! I think I can mange €500 or more a semester.
World Socialist Web Site: Germany: New university tuition fees threaten students with poverty

I think compared to what students in the States pay, €500 is nothing (though $40,000 is a lot, most schools cost a lot less - I think only private universities charge that much), though I can see how students are not too thrilled about this. Some already work a lot to get by, and now they have another €1000 to come up with every year. And the thing is, if you want to receive BAFöG you can only make a certain amount of money every month.
A friend of mine would be eligible for BAFöG but decided not to get it, because by working she has more money available to her every month.

In my and my brother's case, our parents pay for our tuition, so we are lucky.

The thing that pisses me off most about the tuition they are introducing is that most likely I will not even see any of that money put into the departments I study at. All they want to fund is the sciences, law school, med school, etc. because that is what will give Heidelberg a chance to become an "elite" university. The humanities are constantly getting less money, and I don't see that changing. I wish they would just give half of my €500 to the English department, and the other half to the Spanish department. Conditions were poor at these departments when I started uni in 2002, and they are constantly getting worse. (Now they do a lottery at the Spanish Dept. for who gets to take the Spanish language courses, which are mandatory! They only offer two courses for each language level, intermediate and advanced. The beginner's classes were canceled a semester after I started studying Spanish in 2003, because they couldn't afford them.)

I'm of two minds on the issue. I like the idea of free education, and once you start charging fees, it's easy to keep raising them from manageable levels to high and expensive levels. But 500 Euros (that's the highest amount according to your quotes) isn't unreasonable I think. Better to charge a bit and be able to keep decent classes and services going.

As Showem says, the problem is that once you remove the principle of free education, then it's very easy to increase the fees. €500 a semester might not be that much compared to the USA, but it is still €4,500 over the course of an average degree course in Germany and can be raised at any time. When tuition fees were introduced in the UK the amount was set at £1,000 per year, but was tripled to £3,000 within a few years. In the UK, however, the fee is means-tested, so that parents who can't afford to pay it don't. So only about a third of students actually pay the full amount. I'm surprised that Germany has chosen to impose this charge across the board rather than follow Britain's example. University entry should be determined by academic competence, not ability to pay the fees.

The other rather disingenious thing that Germany is doing that was not the case in Britain is that they are also charging existing students - in other words, people who started their degree course as long ago as 2002, long before talk of student fees started. They should be levying the fee only on new students. Clever candidates may now be put off applying for university not because they can't afford the €500 per semester, but because they fear that this amount could be raised between now and their graduation in five years' time.

ITH:

Does anyone know if the same fee applies to international students (non-German citizens), or do international students have to pay more?

Oh, yeah if you add room & board then it is that much, yes. But merely tuition & fees isn't. A couple of friends of mine go to Boston College which is a private university and they actually pay $40,000 in tuition & fees per year.
If I had had to pay tuition & fees in the year that I went to Univ. of Oklahoma, it would have been a little over $10,000 but that's because I would have been an int'l student. In-state tuition is a lot less.

If you added my rent & financial support from my parents here in Germany, what my parents pay for me every year is almost €10,000.
In Oklahoma it was about the same amount.

By the way, as far as I know, foreign students don't have to pay the €500 if they started their degree before a certain year, at least in this state. I read that in our univ. newspaper but I don't have the issue anymore, so I cannot look up what exactly it said.

I think that depends on the state you are in. Here (Baden-Württemberg) it is the same, though foreign students can be exempt from paying in certain cases.
Not all states in Germany will be charging tuition either. Which state (Bundesland) are you asking about?

I made a little chart for all states. Information was taken from Wikipedia.

BaWü: €500 starting in SS07
Bayern: €300-500 starting in SS07
Berlin: NO TUITION
Brandenburg: NO TUITION
Bremen: €500 if Erstwohnsitz is outside Bremen
Hamburg: €500 starting in SS07
Hessen: €500 starting in WS07/08
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern: NO TUITION
Niedersachsen: €500 starting in SS07
NRW: up to €500 starting in SS07 (starting in WS06/07 for freshmen)
Saarland: €500 starting in WS07/08
Sachsen: NO TUITION
Schleswig-Holstein: NO TUITION
Thüringen: NO TUITION

There are exceptions in some states, for students with siblings who also pay tuition (here exceptions are if you have two or more siblings who are paying/paid tuition, students with children, and some others).

Essentially, all CDU/CSU goverened states are introducing tuition.

As far as I know, there is no difference between German and foreign applicants as far as tuition fees are concerned.

That's correct - there is no difference in fees between foreign and local students. There are some international degree programs at a few German universities that charge "high" fees (around €5000), but German students wanting to take those courses then also pay the same amount, so no difference there either.

The €500 or so a student has to pay in fees is completely overshadowed by living expenses, which easily come to more than that in a single month. So the introduction of fees at their current levels, which was accompanied by improvements in the Bafög system, isn't much of an issue for students.

Thanks, guys! You made my week. It looks like I will be saving A LOT of money!

Oh yeah, the University of Heidelberg offers a 1-year Master's Degree in American Studies... €5,000. I'd be really interested in that but the tuition is putting me off a little.

well sending your children to UK university is not cheap! Tuition fees were 1600 GBP a year and accommodation about 3000 GBP. As non-residents our children are NOT entitled to a student loan, so guess what, the bank of mum and dad pay! That's just fees, there are all sorts of added expenses, books, supplies etc etc. Fees increased recently to 3000 GBP per year. So for child one, at least 15000 GBP and a hell of a lot more for the next two! Tried to send them to Scotland where fees are minimal for EU students (not English) but they have chosen English universities...pah

I mixed about if tuition should be applied to higher education. You want it to be accessable to all, but at the sametime extra money can help provide a better service.

As for tuition in the US, it varies. In my state if you go to an in-state school (so you're a resident) then it's about $3,315/semester for full time undergrad. If you're out of state it's aroudn $8,116. If you're a Minnesota resident it'd be $4,183. I do not think that's a lot. It's tuition and fees so includes random stuff in it.
For where I went to school the tuition is currently (it went up a but in the 2 years since I graduated) is aroudn $26,200 for tuition and another $408 for fees (if you're in some certain courses then sometimes you'll get extra fees for some of the Engineering labs and things). The website suggests you budget for around $8,880 for room and board (I'm guessing that's assuming staying on campus and things), $900 for books, $1,350 for personal expenses, and $200-3,000 for travel expensese (since our students represent all 50 states and over 80 countries).

Overall US tuition varies in state in Wisconsin it's around $6,600 a year. At Marquette (a private school) it's about $27,000 a year for tuition.

Education, especially higher education, must be accessible based on caste membership only. The system only needs a certain amount of highly educated people, and those should come from a background that guarantees content with the system. Those that see the less pleasant side of things are better left as stupid as powerless.
We can't allow the poor to be clever enough to realise just why they are poor.

Does that sound too strong? Well, look to the US, or wait ten years and see it happen here.

The concept is very old. The best defense against mutiny on the navy sailing ships was the simple fact that there was only a few officers that were trained in the art of navigation.

FYI anyone can get an education. Doesn't matter what your socio-economic situation is (and umm.. Cast system? i think that's a bit strong of a phrase to use). If you want it there's a way and means to get it. You can get scholarships, loans, grants or just work your buttoff. I got scholarships to pay for probably about half of my undergrad and depending on what I decide to do in a few months i'll get grants/scholarships to pay for my fullmasters, if I choose that road. If I don't my employer also will pay 100% of tuition if I get an A in a class, 75% for a B etc.

If people want higher education they can get it. At least in the US since we don't have school deciding if we are capable or not at the wee age of 10 (or whatever it is).

Everyone should be allowed what they want (Education-wise) and it'd be in the best interest for everyone to get as much as they can and not keep it elitist.

I don't see an issue with starting to charge a tuition fee here, there are alot of students that just study and study and never seem to get a degree. This will make the student more responsible in their choice of study and make them more responisble as students. The small fee of 500 per semester is affordable by most, if they cannot afford it then they can get loans, like most students in NA.
I don't think this will limit anybodies ability to study. Heck, some students make actually have to get parttime jobs and stop hanging out at the P1.

Damn,

I need to do my grad degrees at a German university!

My undergrad tuition was $45K a year. Grad school is about the same but with less financial aid. I'm already going to be paying for my first degree till I retire, I might as well save a few bucks and study here.

Sorry, but i think you're being a little naive. Of course you can make it from the ghetto to the upper class, but how often does that really happen? I know that the US has traditionally been better at that then Germany, but in both countries the chances are rapidly declining, proportionally to the rapid accumulation of wealth in the hands of a selected few, one might add.
Anyway, in both countries the overwhelming majority never get out of the socio-economic class they were born in, that is a scientific fact and it warrants the assessment as a caste system.

Just how is the US better than Germany in this point? Here tuition fees are low - in the US they're astronomical.

Anyway, I would agree that those willing to study in Germany do have a good chance regardless of how wealthy their parent are.

Actually many states already introduced long-term tuition years ago. Here if you take the Regelstudienzeit + 4 semesters or longer, you had to pay €500 a semester and I think it was similar in Bavaria.

I do agree though, that if someone really wants to go to university, they will still be able to. I just hope that the money the university makes will be distributed equally between the departments, that is, in relation to actual student numbers.

People going from poverty to university may not happen heaps, but it's possible. I know many, including part of my own family, that did it. I've worked with programs that help kids do it. It's sad that many governements are cutting funding for programs that help, but they still exist. I know many private schools have programs to help kids throughout high school that normally wouldn't be able to attend university (due to finanical difficulty and a non-stellar education) or if they did manage to get in would fail out straight away. It may not happen heaps, but it's possible. Just because not every single kid in that situation is going on to higher education doesn't mean they cannot, some simply don't want to. If I've seen kids who are in gangs and convicted of armed robbery and attempted murder straighten up and go on I'm pretty sure a middle of the road person if they so desired and had the determination to could also make it further in their education.

Its even worse when you compare the lower education. Yet tradionally the figures (of caste transitions) have been better in the US, dont ask me why. Probably easier to get into the middle class from the lower class.

The first part is pretty much what i said. Its possible, but the figures show that its not happening very often.

The second ... well i think you are overestimating free will and/or underestimating psychological factors and the effects your social environment has on your self-assessment.

No I am not. Basically we probably have a similar understanding I guess I'm just naive hopeful about the outcome.

I know the effects of pyschological factors or the environment, that's why it takes certain programs and teachers and groups to work with the students. And no child leftbehind is a bunch of bunk and that funding and support needs to be redirected elsewhere.

Why would kids who struggle through high school go to uni in the first place? They're not university-material.

Perhaps sometimes there are other issues involved as to why they struggle through high school? Also (to a degree) you get to focus on the things that you enjoy and not shit like maffs and stuff, which makes one hell of a difference.

What pisses me off is the number of people that go to university and just don’t even try. I think ‘good on ya’ if you are thick, try and fail but when you see some of the knob jockeys and the amount of effort they put in its unbelievable.

As for costs at university (UK) for me its around £1500 a year in fees but I believe this has now gone up to £3000. Full student loan per year is around £4500 so that’s £7500 (if you start now) and you have no other support.

Fuckin tax dodgers, get a hair cut !

I seriously doubt I could get it shorter than it is now lol

agree with TBFB and there being a differnece between high school and university.

Oomcha's comment was a bit harsh. My brother blew off most of high school being the star basketball player and party kid. Took him awhile to grow up, but he finished college and is glad he did and looks back at it and realizes he was a fuckup for awhile.

People grow up and change. Just because you aren't a serious academic when you're younger doesn't mean you won't care about education later or that you shouldn't have the opportunity. The bachelor degree is fastly becoming the old high school diploma. It's needed more and more (and subsequently is less valuable) for different fields.

What does "university material" mean? If someone has the interest or desire to learn more on a specific subject what else do they need? Some of my friends enlisted after high school, some didn't do anything, others are college dropouts while others succeeded just fine and a few are continuing on with Master or PhD programs. I wouldn't say my friends that never tried to get a higher education aren't good enough or fit enough to do it-- they just have different education values or lifegoals. Nobody is too high or low brow to go to school.

My comment is just my opinion. Don't take things personally.

Anyway, I'm tired, so I'm going to sum up everything I was going to type into two sentences:

High school is like a foundation. If you build a shit one, you start all over again.

In Canada we also don't have the lets force kids at 9 or 10 to decide where they are going in life, alot of the students I graduated high school with struggled in some areas, but when they got to Uni they excelled in their vocation. Think my shock when talking to them a few years ago at the Reunion what they had become, a lawyer, special ed. teacher, a few accountants. But they had the opportunity to study- something every child should have. Some take longer to come out of their shells and discover what they really want.

My point was, if a kid struggles with, let's say, basic education, then it's likely that they will struggle with higher education. Of course, that's not the case for all kids (kids who are intelligent just need to get their act together), but I think for the vast majority, it is. If that is the case, then the kid would probably be better off going an alternative route, like pursuing a trade, etc.

And yes, I agree that everyone should have the opportunity to go to uni and further their studies. But then you have the shit unis versus the awesome ones... which then brings in the kid's employability, etc.

I wouldn't associate intelligence with attending University.

LOL. What I wrote wasn't intended to be taken word for word. It is just the general principle that I'm trying to get across.

Anyway, intelligence is one word I associate with attending uni. Why do you think there are all these different systems to allocate kids university places/courses? Stupid kids get left out, or get into courses no one else wants to do.

My biggest problem with the "free" education in Germany is that too many students start and don't finish. OK, let me qualify that. I know 3 different people who started out with one major then switched to something else and then switched again. End result, none of them have degrees in anything and therefore are limited in their choice of jobs.

Always finish what you've started is something I was told and told again. I would never have dreamed of quitting college even though I was several thousand dollars in debt by the time I got out. But, as I was sitting there "learning", I was thinking about how I planned to get back every dollar that I spent just to sit there. Too many students take it for granted and don't get a thing out of it.
Imposing a 500€ fee per semester - it's nothing. Suck it up. Nothing in life is free.

@oomcha
typical arrogant german answer. Reminds me of a girl I saw at the local gymnasium as I toured it with my son on open house day. We passed a couple of 17 ish kids, girl and guy obviously in "love". The teacher showing us the school asked where they were supposed to be and she said - yeah, I don't go to the gymnasium, I guess you can tell by looking at me that I'm stupid? How horrible!

I doubt most of the people I knew at the uni in heidleberg would be able to pass a handwerker test at the ihk even if they prepared for it. There are different ways of thinking and looking at the world and this arrogant class mentality that they start inflicting on the kids at this young age really bugs me.

A good case can be made for charging students for their university education. If you look at the top universities in the world you'll find most of them cost money to attend.

Tuition = endowment = hiring top professors = being a better university.

For the non-Americans: tuition to a top US private university is $XX,XXX on paper but usually much, much less in practice. If you can't afford it the university and the government pick up the tab with grants and loans.

I think this is why:


From a young age German kids seem to be set with the fate that the state bestows on them.

That rhymed. I like it.

A bit too unrealistic, I'm afraid. There are only so many grants and scholarships available for an ever-increasing number of students trying to go to the US (especially for post-graduate studies), and getting a loan hardly means that someone else is picking up the tab since you have to pay it all back.

With loans, sure, but it typically works out to a fraction of the salary that you should be getting having attended Awesome U (and it's deferred for further education). Also, the top private universities in the US tend to hand out grants like candy; your acceptance to the university essentially makes you worthy of the grant (once you show need which is a piece of piss).

Hmmm, let's see. A good friend of mine who is just 2 years younger than me and male, went to grad school at Kellogg - one of the top MBA schools in the States (if not the top at the time). He went off to S.F. with high hopes and ended up unemployed for 2 years. Now he works for Accenture. His mangers/supervisors are much younger than him and making much more. So, tell me, how did he get ahead by going to a fantastic university? He's not stupid or lazy or anything. He's had a lot of bad luck, but, most importantly, the name of his university didn't exactly open a lot of doors for him.

But a lot can depend on when you graduate...I graduated the year the tech bubble burst so whereas my classmates from th previous year who graduated with Bachelous were approached by tonnes of companies, I got a Masters, graduated a year later and there was next to nothing as they had all went belly-up. It worked out for me OK but tehre were others who were not so lucky. In such a market, even the bigger name players have to really prove themselves every step of the way...

Let's take a look at the key Kellogg stats (this is from the Businessweek B-School ranking which you need a login to view):

Students with a job offer by graduation: 95.9%
Median starting salary without options or bonuses: ~$100,000


I think you hit the nail on the head with the 1st part of your sentence and are dead wrong about the 2nd; he's part of a mere 4.1% of graduates who didn't have an offer at graduation. Either he wasn't looking, he had bad luck for one reason or another, or he's not very good.

95.9% of graduates going to this particular top university's MBA program got hooked up because of it. You really can't ask for better odds than that!

Looking back on my last post it's amazing that I got a job at all!

NYT: In Tuition Game, Popularity Rises With Price


Go figure!

I do think that after 4th grade is a bit early to decide. But you know, if you really want to move up, you still can. It is a lot of hard work, but people have done it. A friend of mine as well as my mom (who was not allowed to go to Gymnasium by her dad even though she would have been good enough) got their Abitur and went /go to university.

I personally do not go to university just to get a degree, because the one I am getting will not necessarily be helpful at all, looking at the job situation in Germany.

Oomcha, you would be surprised how many kids struggle through school even though they are very smart and absolutely "university material". Many kids who are gifted are bored in school, and then start acting up. They may even have bad grades.

And knowing things does not equal intelligence either.

Not necessarily. You were speaking of non-Americans, remember? Well, in Switzerland at least in the past several years an MBA or LL.M degree has become a near-requirement for many jobs, including academic posts that don't pay very well ("slight" understatement there). So, not only are those degrees not as special and "Awesome" as they once were (although tuition fees are), but they don't always lead to top-paying jobs, either, which makes paying off the loan that much more difficult.


This is a bit of a generalisation, I'm afraid. I know several people whose requests were turned down and who had to pay / are paying their US tuition fees themselves. One of them is at Columbia but then she's Swiss so they must have figured there were people in greater need, fair enough. Another one is at KSU: she happens to be from Eastern Europe, from a very modest family, but she didn't get a cent, either. So if those grants are handed out "like candy", as you say, where do they all go?

well said Mariposa

500€ a semester? How about these students, that are about to be thrown into poverty, get their asses out of the pub and get a fecking part time job?

I have no idea why people have a problem with this. I'm up for free education, but it should stop at a point. If you want higher education pay for it yourself. The only part where tax payers should get involved here is to give out nice cheap loans to people who want to go, ensuring that anyone regardless of background can get in.

In Australia, university costs around 3000-4000€ a year, and there's no problem. People get a low interest loan from the government and pay it back when they get a job after they leave university. If you don't get a good paying job over a certain amount, you don't have to pay it back until you do. For the extra's that this doesn't cover, people get a part time job. I worked 20 hours per week through university, I don't know why people expect the state to pick up their tab here.