New tuition fees for university

I agree. I worked my way through college. But I heard it is not allowed to work if you are getting and state support?

Yeah, you can work, but only make up to a certain amount of money. A friend of mine chooses working more over getting state support (BaFÖG).
Not everyone qualifies for state support (it goes by your parents' income).

I agree with Kay here.

My university was 45k a year. Even after my 50% scholarship, doing a work exchange for room and board, using my Gi Bill from the Army, and having both a grant and a student loan I still ended up having to come up with a little over $10k per year out of pocket.

$10,000 per year as a student! And that is just what I had to earn to give them. I still had to live as well. And of course there was all the other that went onto student loans that need to be paid back.

On the trade-off, I did go to an amazing university that was far superior to cheaper schools. I meet other people in my field who have degrees from less expensive schools and their level of knowledge and understanding of basic concepts is less than what we learned in our first few semesters.

So academically it was definitely worth the sacrifice, but as for debt...it's kind of rough.

Yeah, totally... like I will be going to university for shits and giggles. But of course, you can afford to do that in Germany because uni is practically free.

So, if everyone can get into a uni of their choice here, where is the competitive element? The lack of competition is probably one contribution to the job situation here.


Did you even read what I said before you responded to it? "My point was, if a kid struggles with, let's say, basic education, then it's likely that they will struggle with higher education. Of course, that's not the case for all kids (kids who are intelligent just need to get their act together), but I think for the vast majority, it is." That's pretty self-explanatory, don't ya think?


That statement is seriously flawed. Not only do you avoid defining intelligence, you basically imply that going to university just requires "knowing things", in response to my saying: "Anyway, intelligence is one word I associate with attending uni."

Is that confusing enough for you?

Well done, mere. You deserve an award.

And how do you define intelligence?
In my experience of varsity, there is no link between smartypantsesness and attendance of a varsity.

Those who attend the top universities in the world are definitely intelligent. There is no doubt about that. (Unless they got in through the back door.)

As for defining intelligence, why do you care about some 17-year-old's opinion?

Bollocks. A top school shows you have money, not intelligence. Just look at Bush as a prime example.

You made comment on it, so I was wondering what you defined intelligence as.

Exactly. Bush is intelligent. (Except I think he got into his schools through the back door entry.)

I assume you are being sarcastic. What school you went to is NOT an indicator of intelligence, at all, at any level.
Intelligence is far too hard to measure, what even constitutes intelligence?

Dead right. Apart from a small state handout, I worked the night shift in bakeries and pubs at weekends to pay for university. To my mind, that was all part of the experience. It was certainly more "real world" than uni and holds as many memories as the college part of my 3 years spent there. FFS, kids want it handed to them on a plate. Get off yer frickin' arses and stop moaning. (Wow, how old do I sound!)

1. Top schools have to maintain their reputation, meaning they only accept the cream of the crop.
2. FYI, Bush got in through association, not money.
3. If what school you went to is not an indicator of intelligence, then why won't an employer employ someone from some run-of-the-mill school as opposed to a prestigious one?
4. How come the majority of people with average intelligence can't get into a prestigious school?
5. Better schools employ better teachers.
6. I know a few people who go to well-known schools. They're fucking intelligent.
7. People who go to prestigious schools are definitely not stupid.
8. The list goes on and on...

So with that kinda logic, I am more intelligent than you because, even though we studied the same material, my school cost 5000 more per year and is seen as prestigous?

How do you know this? How are tou gauging intelligence?

Generalisation but yes, but this also has no bearing in the intelligence of the students that attend.

I know some people who never bothered with varsity and they're fucking intelligent too.

I'm sure even prestigous schools have their quota of stupid folk, but claiming that only intelligensia only frequent these schools is bollocks.

Intelligence is just far too hard to qualify, yes some of the people at these prestigous schools are fucking clued up in their engineering, maths, chemistry...whatever. Take them away from their speciality and they can be complete retards. Just like, say, a mechanic...a godamned genius under the hood...put him into a chemistry lab and he's a good as tits on a bull. Who's more intelligent

I went to East Tennessee Diesel Engine & Bible College and if anybody thinks I'm not as smart as some Harvard graduate they can go fuck themselves.

Where the Good Lord drives a John Deere and chews Skoal. Amen brother.

Ok,

So I spent a semester at Harvard -- undeniably the best school in the world. It's also among the most expensive.

They did have amazing resources, amazing instructors, and an amazing atmosphere for learning.

That said, they had their fair share of dumbasses. You learned very quickly to peg the two main types of students:

1. Legacies -- I go to Harvard because my g-g-g-g-great grandfather went to Harvard. You could spot them by their $200 haircuts and squash outfits.

2. Everybody else -- mostly very intelligient, hardworking people from all around the world with a strong propensity to learn and a ridiculous drive and dedication to accomplishing their goals. And most, on substantial scholarships.

I was definitely impressed with the average intelligience level among the students. But, I would never have wanted to spend more than a couple of terms there. They never had fun. Life was books, travel, books, exams.

I used to work in a large international firm that only hired "billable staff" from the top 10% of the top 5 universities in the world. I was in HR and my office was next to the copy room. Why did I spend a lot of my time showing these people how to put paper in the copier, how to fill out a half-page tax form (W4s - which include directions in the top half), and how to select a health care plan if they were so fucking intelligent? I also had to show them how to fill out an evaluation form (also with insturctions in two places) and other HR paperwork. Year after year after year.

My point is: these people were supposed to be the smartest and they failed at many things that required only common sense.

When I was at university (mid 90s) the average life-style of a student was much lower compared to today, and fewer of us worked regulary, most survived with what they got from the parents/Bafög.
when I see "todays students" (and I know quite many of them as I used to work at university until 2 yrs ago)- lots of them have their own car, expensive cell-phone bills, 1-room appartments, expensive night outs, expensive vacation, laptops, ipods, whatever, and of course they have to work a lot to get all this financed cause the parents money is not enough. so they should stop complaining, pay the fee, and either work more or get their lifestyle slighltly lowered! Or get a loan.

Dear me. I love this whole "just get off your ass and work" theme we have going on here. Misses the point a bit. 1000 Euros per year is a 1000 Euros per year. Not every family can just accept this sort of hit easily. Many students must work already to pay for the every day costs of living - rent, food, utilities, school supplies, etc.

Sure, the universities here don't cost as much as in the US, the UK, etc., which is rather besides the point because we are not talking about the students in these countries, we are talking about the students in Germany. Instead of moaning about having to pay $45,000 a year in tuition in the US and your intelligence or the intelligence of your fellow students at your prestigious US university, how about looking at why/how the proposed fees in GERMANY affect the GERMAN students and their families. Or we could just continue on with the idea that we have going in this thread that the US/UK experience is universal.

The US has a financial aid system that is hardly comparable to what Germany has. People seem to be under the impression that the aid (and the rules and regulations related to the aid) that you receive in Germany is the same as in the US. It is not.

My first impression of German students and the student lifestyle - my student housing roommate in Heidelberg, 1989, was complaining that her loans were just enough to live off of, so I (innocent American exchange student) asked her why she didn't just go out and get a job? The distainful answer was "I am a student, I'm not working!" So I suggested she either consider selling her car or the tv she had brought with her, or quit going shopping and out for coffee and cake. Our paths soon separated. I would have loved to have been able to work that year.

Course, by the end of the year I was starting to enjoy the not working, complaining of poverty and getting one "schein" a semester lifestyle

Bleedin' wingin' students. Aw, gonna have to actually pay some money for your tuittion? Jesus, what a gip! It's a fucking outrage! Pay for education! Never!!

C'mon, surely we'd all be really really happy for the german government to financially rape us even further, raise taxes to an ever higher level, and pay for the youth of our society to go out on the piss at Barschwein. Wouldn't we?
Me, no I would not.

The general movement across the educated world in the last few decades has been to try and open up higher education to let "anyone" in regardless of financial background - what's actually happened is that now, "anyone" is let in regardless of anything. Not clever enough for a university degree? Lets invent some bullshit course called, er, I dunno, how about "Stuff Studies"? There. Happy? We'll make it no exams, and coursework only, to give you some extra help. We'll announce the coursework at least 2 semestres in advance, although we know full well that you won't start until the day before its due in, so we'll make it so fucking stupidly easy, that you could submit some bullshit with glued on pasta shapes and glitter, and still fucking pass. You know what? We'll grade it all "comparitively", so the top 5% of the class get an A, the next 20% a B etc. OK, you'd have all really got big red Fs all over your macaroni & glitter spattered gibberish, but hey, now everybody has a degree and we are all equal. yay! Awareness. Issue. yay!

Arse, arse, arse.

Get a loan, get a job, its not that hard in the vast majority of cases. Yes, some people actually spend all their college lives actually studying, but thats a very small number. Anyway, if it's hard for you to work and study at the same time, then hello, welcome to life. The barrier to entry to university should not be financial - but if the barrier to entry is being prepared for having to study all day, then go and work washing up greasy dishes in a chinese restaurant all night to pay for that studying, then its probably better training for the shite that life throws at you than any of the words yabbering out of the saliva crusted lips of some cranky old lecturer.

Alot of people in North American cannot get student aid due to parents incomes, so they have go to banks, yes, every day normal banks for loans. Maybe the Spoilt German Uni kids should think of that.
I have no sympathy for them. Gee, just look at any of the clothing shops, cafes, bars and restaurants by the Uni, they are full of students spending money all the time. Kind of hard to be sypathethic to a small fee of 500 per semester. Maybe they will have to pick a field and stick with it, maybe they will actually have to get a degree, and oh, my god, dare I say, maybe not everyone will be able to go thru and get their PhD.

Right, what if I am working fulltime, and I decide I fancy doing a little bit of study. 500 a semester? Bargain. You could pay more than that for a bloody evening course. I fancy learning how to do shooting animals and stuff, but it costs alot of cash, takes alot of time, and it would be tough working all day to pay for it, and studying x hours per week to pass the exam.

Anyway, I'd probably do it at a decent school, and that would cost more money, because you pay for what you get in the world. Oh no! What have I said. No. Sorry. All universities should be equal and money should never come into it.

What percentage of German students have families to support? I would suggest it would be a very low percentage. And if they had a family to support, these people would be eligible for a number of hand outs from the German government.

Stop whinging, harden up and stop expecting tax payers to cover your ass.

Hutcho-

Families = Mom + Dad + Student (or similar variation). I'm not talking about students with spouses/children of their own. That's a related, but different topic. Mom and Dad are the ones that are paying for these students in many cases. This affects them as a family.

so are families in the US, UK, Aus or Can any different? They also have to save for their kids unis/colleges. What most of us are saying is that 500 per semester is not alot, it its tough on the student then get a job. Most of us pay taxes here, and cannot vote, so we have a right to vent our opinions about this matter.

In this case, I don't know what you're problem is. The kid can go out and get a part time job to pay for his/her tuition. If the "kid" is going to university its time to start taking some responsibility and stop sucking off their parents anyway. This simply has nothing to do with the parents at all. If a part time job doesn't cover it the kid can get a student loan and sort it out after they get a job.

I'd rather have it paid by taxation than see the loan scheme being used. That's a fucking disastor. An educated population is to everyone's benefit

Until very recently, there has been no such thing as a student loan on offer from banks in Germany.

Why is it a disaster? You get a loan, and pay it back after you have finished your degree. I'm not sure if this system exists in Germany, but it exists in Australia and works fine. In any case, you don't need a loan for 1000€ a year. I'd be up for them charging 5000-10000€ a year and giving people these loans rather than taking it away from the tax payers.

I agree that an educated population is to everyone benefit, but that stops at high school. If you want higher education, pay for it yourself. With the loan situation, there is no deterrent to going to university nor is there anything stopping people from low income/disadvantaged backgrounds from entering, so people who want to go can still go. If they adopted the Australian system you wouldn't even have to pay it back until you earn over a certain amount so there is a relatively low risk involved.

So that's what they are calling University of Tennessee these days?

NZ also has the same loan scheme, student debt is now the country's biggest debt and there is an entire generation swamped in debt. Yes, that is thuper.


Why should the free education suddenly stop at some arbitrary line? It should be either free or not, and I go for the free option.

In my opinion, its better to have the debt that the students have to one day pay back, than not having the debt because all the tax payers have forked out for it.

Cause there is a line that gets reached when you should get off your ass and start earning some money and paying some taxes instead of being a leech on the system.

Different strokes for different folks. I'd rather have a debt free, educated population with slightly higher taxes than a not-so-educated and debt ridden population with slightly lower taxes

I don't think the cheap loan/pay it back when you earn good money situation deters anyone from university, so I don't think the argument of educated population really holds. As for the debt, I don't really care. The money has to be paid by someone, I would rather it be paid by the students who are getting the education than by tax payers who have no choice in the matter. Its not like this debt is holding people back and making them bankrupt like taking out stupid investment loans would. You pay it back when you are earning decent enough money. Tax payers might have to bear the brunt of some of the interest on the loan, but thats better than taking the burden of the full loan.

After the University of Tennessee Learning Annex lost accreditation we got absorbed by a truck driving school and Oral Robert's University.

I do think it deters, a number of my friends didn't go to uni for this very reason. The "pay it back when you earn good money" is a bit bollocks, as the "good money" in NZ is deemed to be NZ$15000/annum or €7,500/annum and then money is automatically deducted from your income, yep that certainly is good money.

I'm the other way, there are plenty of other things that we pay taxes for and you don't get into a stink about that. Education is so important I think it should be covered by the general populace, I prefer that to an in debt nation

Well, it is holding a lot of people back, and many people choose to declare bankruptcy as that is easier to deal with than a lifetime of debt (in NZ most students will hold their student loan debt for most of their working life)

The student debt is massive, and you are pushing shit up hill with chopsticks if you think that much of it will be repaid...then guess what, it's on us as taxpayers to deal with it. Yep, good bit of financial planning went into those loan schemes!

@ Timmeh

I was at Uni for 5 years in New Zealand. The student loan scheme is not perfect, no. But I don'T know when you last strolled around a campus at home, because if you did you would see huge abuses of the scheme. A lot of the young people wear expensive labelled clothes, socialise in restaurants a lot, and drink pretty good alcohol (gone are the days of boxed wine and double brown beer) and generally have a very nice time. A lot I know have more expensive social lives than their parents struggling to support them. Sure some live modestly, but they now are the minority.

I don'T know of anyone that has declared bankruptsy, that screws you up financially more than the debt ever would, and is just stupid. I do know, however a lot of people that owe $40.000, to $50,000 debt, and only fully realised after graduating the consequences of their Uni lifestyle. A lot of these kids got help from there parents at home, and then still max out debts so that they have more money to spend. thinking that when they graduated they would earn a lot of money so it didn'T matter, then realising the real world isn't like that.

Another big difference at home is that anyone can go to University in NZ, three passes C's out of five subjects to get in is a joke, and once you turn 20 anyone can go, regardless of past academic performance in high school. Half of the people from my school that I went to Uni with failed out - mostly from laziness - most of them were quite clever, why should they be paid for? They smoked too much weed, partied to much and didn't do any work. I worked at for Student Services while I was going through Uni, and there is a lot of people that just didn'T pass anything, or only a couple of paper a year.

You can't make University available for everyone the way it is at home, and have it paid for. Part of the debt problem at home, is that anyone can get it, for whatever course.

Another big problem in NZ is the number of bollox courses that people can get loans for, and that lack of education about the debt. Where else could an 18 year old with only bare passes or for some Polytech courses, hardly any School C subjects passed (when you are about 16) borrow $10,000 unsecured.

You are right though, our generation of New Zealanders is going to be badly effected for a long time. But for a lot it didn'T need to be that way. I worked my ass off every holiday, and worked through Uni, and still kept an A average, and came out Ok.

The people studying at University are adults, and in the real adult world there is opportunity cost, and consequences for decisions.

Five Hundred Euros per semester is NOTHING. I paid six times that thirty years ago and considered my tuition to be a real bargain. I a person wants a university degree he will find a way to pay for it . If he is not clever enough to raise the money, then he really does not have the mental capacity to be awarded a degree,