Salary expectations for computer engineers

Hi all, just found your forum and I like what I have read. I've had trouble wading through a lot of the threads, so perhaps some of you can address this offer or point me to a thread where it has already been discussed. I have seen one addressing a 80k Euro salary in Munich but I am not in this kind of ball-park.

I am one year out of school with a Computer Engineering degree. I am single and without dependents. I have been working for a small company, started up as a sales office of a larger German company. The company is 5 people here in the US (I am the second engineer) and about 60 people in Germany, in Baden-Wuerttemberg, near the Bodensee (2 hours south of Stuttgart, near Wangen). I have been to the German headquarters (Officially a different company...GmbH instead of , Inc.) for approximately three of the months I have been here. I am conversent in German, but not fluent, but will be soon if I go there.

News reached here that Germany is struggling to hire engineers, so I offered, with my bosses consent to apply for the move. First what I am currently receiving here:

- $55k + ~$5k bonus (not received yet, still the first year)
- Full health-care, dental, disability, small life-insurance.

What I have been offered there.

- 40k Euro
- Trip over
- Trip home for a wedding
- Shipping a small amount of stuff

I will have now one year of experience within the company, coupled with a year and a half of co-op experience with another Comp. Engineering firm and two years of experience in Space Weather research. I have, however, a boss who is persistently trying to lower expectations (we pay above average, paying full health insurance here is unheard of, etc.) I'm concerned becuase going from $60k ($45k take home) to 40k Euro (22k Euro take home) comprises a dollars to dollars take-home decrease of about 35%. Within the company, people are insisting that the cost of living in Germany is lower, but having been to this particular place, I have not experienced that to be true. This is not in a city, but I currently do not live in one here either.

I'm worried that, having to buy myself a car or motorcycle and furnish an apartment, I will completely deplete my savings and be struggling on my take home pay. After apartment I will have about 900 - 1000 Euro a month for automobile, food, social and savings.

Now this is possible, and my boss here is encouraging me to "look at this like an adventure," which is fine and good and I'm capable of, but I'm not in college any more and expected to live on Ramen Noodles. Also, I'd like to take advantage of my new found 30 vacation days.

While this is a normal starting salary for German Engineers, I differ in the need to save (our retirement is not free, nor is university for our children) and relocate. What do you guys think of this offer? What do you think I should be worth? Do you think my financial fears are well-founded or not?

I appreciate your advice.

I'd say there's more to life than money, and the six weeks of holiday PLUS 7-10 public holidays each year, and the high standard of living in Germany generally and the particular attractive Bodensee region would in itself be reason to move. You ARE free and single and so you CAN view this as an adventure. Worry about your dental plan when you're 40; for now, my advice would be to live a little. You'll be able to afford good-quality noodles on €40k a year.

He has the valid concern of wether he'd be able to AFFORD to do anything reasonable
in those six weeks of holiday... Of course if you HAVE money at your disposal its an easy jump to
Italy/Spanish islands in the Summer or the mountains in the Winter...

Well, I think I will take it. Initially I said it wouldn't work (it came up very fast...last monday they said they wanted me over there at the end of the month, pretty much out of nowhere) but was rushed in the decision. They are still interested, but I'm wondering whether it would be acceptable to get more. They do not sound interested in increasing the salary, and I wonder if they are taking into account my experience here or previously.

Could I expect some sort of moving expense? Gosh, I haven't even figured out how American's do business yet, let alone how the German's do it.

The offer is actually not half bad. While it never ceases to amaze me how low salaries are in Germany, if I were in your shoes I would definitely jump for it. Get some good international experience under your belt, and then you can head back to the States for mo' money once you have had enough of Europe.

Although 40k is a normal starting salary, with your experience I would definitely push for at least 45K. But even on that you will struggle to take full advantage of your 30 days vacation and still save. But Europe being as it is and Germany being very centrally situated you could still see a lot on weekend breaks, etc. so from an "adventure" and experience point of view I would do it.

One thing you also need to bear in mind is that Germans consider a Bachelors which I assume you have to be inferior to their "Diplom". EUR 900 is also not a lot to have after the apartment. You're looking at at least EUR300 - 400 for food a month and at least EUR 200 for entertainment. A pint usually costs from EUR 2,90 in a dingy hole to EUR 4 in a fancy bar. Clothing is also more expensive here than on the other side of the pond. Still, I would do it. You only live once and the sooner you start saving, the less you need to each month and that you definitely can do here.

You may try get a relocation allowance now that you mention it. Or them pay for an agent to help you settle in. I would personally ask for the allowance and do it myself. Adds to the adventure...

If they are that keen then there is a chance that they will move a bit on the salary. If you don't ask, you don't get. Or rather than a higher salary, see if they will pay your rent for you instead

I agree - if they are wanting you then play this to your favour. Its also worth looking at the
framework in which you are to work. Do they expect you to do lots of overtime? Do they
expect you to do this "for free" or do they have some sort of scheme for paying for this.

That can make quite a difference to what you have left over at the end of each month.

And from reading other threads - get them to assist in actions around residence /work
permits (seeing as you are not from the EU).

I earned 40,000 the first year I was in Munich and I certainly wasn't struggling. If you don't hava a car (and you seriously don't need one in the city), you'll have a lot more disposable income. I travelled a lot on that salary, ate out all the time, drank lots of beer and had a pretty nice life without feeling like I was deprived of anything. There are plenty of people living in Munich on a lot less than that too, and they're not starving.

oh yeah, and if you're in a less expensive area, then it's actually a really good salary...

Look where you will be living. It is not Munich or even Stuttgart. The Lake Constance area must be tons cheaper (rental prices) than other areas in Germany, but oh hell, you're gonna be in BFE!! But I would look into leasing a car. I'm sure you can get car payments for 350 Euro a month or less.

You won't get disability insurance (Berufsunfähigkeitsversicherung) with a German contract. That is extra and costs about 50 Euro a month (I pay around that), but if you have no dependents, then why bother? My ex made me get it and so I have it.

Health insurance takes a good chunk out of your salary (see other discussions on TT) and with new rules, you won't be able to go private (also discussed on TT, also you don't earn enough), but you're covered for everything, even preexisting conditions. Dental is extra (health insurance only pays for fillings and root canals, but not all of crowns and bridges, etc.) . I pay about 20 Euro extra a month for that, but it's capped at so many euros a year and there is a waiting period before you can take advantage of it. Maybe your US dental plan covers you here?

One thing you should get used to is that you will live in a smaller apartment. You won't need more than a one-bedroom. I'm amazed that I share a one-bedroom place with my bf. In Munich I was living in a studio!

And I will add too, I don't earn much more than what your salary would be and I also still pay off my student loans, so each month (since I am single and without dependents) I send home quite a few euros. Granted I don't have a car, but I was in Thailand last year for 3 weeks, Portugal for 1, had a nice long weekend in Hamburg (German holidays are expensive) and some great partying in Munich. I bought myself a new MacBook and enjoyed life pretty well and I still got money to spend!

It seems he wouldn't be in a city - see 2nd paragraph of his original post.

Nice one!

It also depends on what sports/hobbies you might have or even develop there. The schwäbische Alb
(not to be confused with the Alps) is excellent for walking/hiking. I'm not so sure that its a great
place for sailing but you are in or close to some of the best gliding (soaring) areas of Germany!

There is even potholing as the Alb is riddled with caves etc.

Turns out that there are a number of "Wangen"s in Baden-W. according to Wikipedia...

I think you can live on 40k but you need to make sure it's what you're worth. You say they are struggling to find people here. That gives you some power for negotiations.

It will definitely help you in the long run to have international experience but it doesn't mean you should sell yourself short. I don't think it's cheaper than the US here for many things, but I guess it's all dependant on location so you need to do your research on that and not take them at face value.

You should also insist on relocation support. It helps the transisition a lot and would also be benefical to your company as otherwise you would defintely need more time off work to get yourself set up. Plus German red tape can be a bit off a shock to the system at first.

Good luck!

, that wasn't intended!

That makes it better still!

It might be worth asking if they can fly you over for a few days to look at the place, or perhaps you can do it yourself. No idea what Wangen is like, so it might be an idea to find out whether you need to brush up on your tractor surfing skills or whether the mayor, the local doctor and the captain of the bowling team are all the same person.

uh huh, expat lifestyle of munich. there are loads of locals on that salary and doing fine.

apartment - share it! will be around 300 yoyos, food another 300 and entertainment about 200. as for trips out and about in europe, plan early and book early, sure you may not be able to just get out on a whim but if you plan well you can stay in hostels for 20 yoyos a day and flights for about 50-100 yoyos.

I am not talking of negotiations here as I am not sure how the company and your situation is exactly. BUT you would easily live in that salary here. dont think you can save at all but defo. live and enjoy (as I said, plan it all well and you will be ok)

EDIT: Insurance will probably be public and as a young, single male it wont be that much.

My question is if you didn't do it would you regret that? The money's fine as arshoo says above.

Actually Arshoo, what you meant to say is: EDIT: Insurance will probably be public and as a young, single male it will be the financial equivalent of having rock salt blasted up your nostrils with an air hose.

They might not have more money in their budget to pay you more cash; ask for more holiday.

I suspect thats unrealistic - I get 30 days & I've been working here 20+ years

My last employer let me swap wages for a day off every week. Worth an ask eh.

You can ask for time in lieu meaning you get time off for overtime worked. It's usually also capped to a certain amount of time although sometimes you get that paid back to you although it's heavily taxed.

Just like someone already said, if you don't ask you shall not receive. You have nothing to lose by asking for a higher salary. See what the salary plan is for the company (if its a tarif group or what not), see where you rank in the range and try to get it bumped up one, two notches. Either way, its an HR thing, your potential new boss may nary have an idea what you will be making in your role so go for it!

Its just taxed at the normal rate - but given that its "on top" of your salary...

The Schwaben (the local populace) are generally known for being hard working.
They are also generally successful.

Salary is relative, some people ... most people that i know living in a small town could live nicely on that... some others would be pinched. Depends on you, your obligations and your lifestyle.

I would basically deduct your:
-taxes, see a tax professional if you have any concerns about your US obligations,
-known bills in the US (ie outstanding loans, payments, credit obligations etc..),
-basic living expenses in Germany (food+shelter etc),
-monthly savings: My motto: dont skimp on the savings..sure adventure is grand but so is financial security. Most people can have both with a bit of planning.

and then figure out if you can live to your standards on the rest.

If it were me, I would want:
-insurance, medical and dental,
-relocation assistance, i.e. the company agrees to do the paperwork for you: residence permit, working permit and insurance forms,
-german lessons or the very least time to take the lessons.
-a safety net from the US office, i.e. if it doesnt work out for whatever reason you get your job in the US back.

If you have a good relationship with the US decision makers, would also feel out the US office if there was anything they would be willing to cover, for example, they could pick up as well as intensive german lessons before you relocate. FYI: Goethe classes are way cheaper in the US than in Germany. There might be some juggling they could do with the insurance as well so at the very least you maintain some sort of emergency coverage.

Good luck to you!
jml

and also ensure that they will pay for your German tax return to be done for you

One more thing, as far as career management (if you are partially thinking long-term with this company), if you were to come back to the states after a year or so, would this affect you standing in the company (i.e.: you would be at the same level as when you left the US). I have heard this is a problem for some people working for a company who move overseas and looking to go home in the near future. Good luck!

What jml said:

You should at least be getting the equivalent to what you are making in the States (taking into account the exchange rate) or better. Plus, traveling back to the States is not cheap so make them throw ina couple of trips, pay for your full move - it's gonna be expensive to ship all the stuff you own over here (like bikes, computers, etc).

The answer to every unasked question is always 'No'.

thats true it ought to be cheaper


you say though that you share with your bf. Sharing costs with a partner makes a salary go much further than if you are living on your own


depends on what sort of life you want I guess.

he isnt moving to Munich

while a car does eat into costs and isnt strictly neccessary, considering where you will live you would be abler to travel and see central europe much easier with a car. As an American that may unfortunately mean re-taking the test though (depending on what state your licence is issued by in the US)

ps: to be honest though, if you were one of my younger cousins Id tell you to nut up and take the job, mostly since their meatheads and I know they would regret it if they passed it up. I would have to hear about it forever, I cant stand a regretful meathead thats for sure.

Be aware that they have a very strong accent/dialect in Schwaben. The further you
are away from the big city (Stuttgart) the stronger the dialect will be. Just see this
as a challenge...

The girls are VERY difficult to understand.

Most food is good in that area even if some is a bit weird

I'm familiar with the area, as I've been there before. Schwabian is rough but not impossible (to understand). Also, since this is a smaller town, there aren't many auslanders there. Just me and some Croatians. I guess it's established that I will be comfortable living there, if I can swallow my pride and take a salary lower than I should be making. They seem pretty set against going up to 45K so I'm going to propose instead a relocation / signing bonus. I do thank you guys for the advice, and, if you have more, keep it coming, as I will continue checking this. Also, I know this is an opportunity that I shouldn't pass up and I plan on making it work somehow.

Well you could try for half-way..

Be aware that bonuses here are likely to be handled differently than in US.
I'm in a largish international company - the US colleagues get an annual bonus
(seems so even if we make a loss) whilst we in Germany dont. Bonuses tend to
be reserved for those in mamagement & sales here.

Maybe bonus isn't the right word, but stipend or expense or something. Life would be easier if I didn't have to deal with negotiating these things and just did my job.

You can get quite a lot of expenses put under the general heading of "relocation costs", such as paying the agency fee for finding you an apartment (which costs two months rent).

If you do get the bonus then try and get it paid to you by the group in the states so it won't get taxed into oblivion!

Keep all your receipts even loosely related to the move for your tax return. You'll never get a good list of what you can and cannot claim but it's worth just throwing it all in and you;re bound to get lucky with some of it.

Another thing to consider is not negotiating on gross salaries, but on net (ie after tax) salary.

Basically ask for your US dollar net salary, translated into Euros. This will then negate the increased tax effect - and it's up to the german company to work out the gross to pay you to get to the net. Make sure you use a (reasonable) but beneficial exchange rate when you make the offer.

I'm guessing that the taxes you pay in the US will be lower than in Germany so you will actually have more in your pocket.

Also ask for the germans to bear the cost of the moving costs.

And as Wizawhatsit says keep all receipts possible - you can even claim back commuting costs here!

>Basically ask for your US dollar net salary, translated into Euros. This will then negate the increased tax effect - and it's up to the german company to >work out the gross to pay you to get to the net. Make sure you use a (reasonable) but beneficial exchange rate when you make the offer.

So yeah, if they're not willing to negotiate up from 40, to 45, there's no way they're goign to consider that. I will be taking a 35% cut in take-home pay to take this job ($60k to 40k Euro at 25% and 45% taxes respectively). The question is if it's worth it and what I can expect to negotiate outside of salary.

> I'm guessing that the taxes you pay in the US will be lower than in Germany so you will actually have more in your pocket.

If I'm moving to Germany, I'm not paying US taxes.

I can't figure out how quoting works on this forum.

There is no question of whether you are going to come or not. Excuse my directness, but you would be dumb not to. You would also obviously be dumb not to try and wring every penny you possibly can out of your company.

That said in, I used to have EUR 40,000 a year and I lived comfortably on it in Munich - Munich being the most expensive city in Germany for accommodation). I couldn't afford to be extravagent though. But I could definitely afford holidays twice a year for a week or two costing around EUR 1,000 a piece (cheaper of you go to southern or eastern Europe), get shit-faced on the weekends and go snowboarding in winter. That said, my parents live in Holland so I didn't have to fork out heaps of dough to get back home at Christmas.

Still, come for the experience and that alone. Some things you can't quantify.

that's obvious BR!
but up until last December, I lived in Munich on my own. i wouldn't use my situation now as a selling point. that would be pretty idiotic, wouldn't it?