German television breaks taboo

Last evening, according to an article in today's Independent, German television broadcast a drama titled Die Flucht, discussing the history of German refugees who were forced to flee eastern Europe from the Red Army. The film, ground-breaking in it's choice of topic, investigates the story of the roughly 14 million Germans who were expelled from the former eastern provinces of East Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia and Sudetenland during the period leading to the closure of the War.
Will be interesting to see what, if any, controversy stems from this, since this particular topic is apparently a source of diplomatic unrest between Poland and Berlin, and has been a legal issue for those who seek to reclaim the lives that they were forced to flee.

The political programme Christina debated the issue after the showing of the film, last night. I couldn't be bothered watching the discussion but it was/is somethhing about Germany coming to terms with (recognising) their losses at the end of the WWII. Whilst there may be a property element to this, it also includes the loss of life as the refugees travelled on mass. Someone with better knowledge can most probs sum it all up better than that.

Like I said, I couldn't be bothered watching it - I am more interested in the debate about Crime in Germany inc. Crime and Immigration...

As far as I remember, and I didn't see the film about it, the Germans were forced to march by foot from wherever they were with no provisions and at some time near the middle of winter. As far as I remember the civilian casualties were over a million...as much a holocaust as any other in my opinion, but hey, victors write the history books right?

I also heard/read one million died...

It's a pretty big taboo to break but also an important one - many Neo-Nazi organisations create sympathy by saying that the suffering of the civilian population post-WWII was ignored and dismissed. By bringing this topic to the table, it takes away yet more from the Neo-Nazi's proproganda.

ARD.de TV-Tipp
That Maria Furtwängler took the lead role is also significant.
As one of Germany's favourite actresses, not least due to her role in "Tatort: Hannover", she is also married to Dr Hubert Burda, CEO of Hubert Burda Media, publisher of titles as diverse as ELLE, Playboy, Bunte, InStyle, Freundin, Focus...
So perhaps she already knew what kind of impact such a role would have.

Of course, that's no comment about how well it was done. What I saw of it was kind of melodramatic. Not sure if I'll watch more tonight.

If you cant remember it correctly dont accuse it of being another "holocaust", this sort of revisionism is dangerous and comparisons such as these only fuel ignorance and popularity of some of the neo-right in Germany. The fact was people wanted to leave earlier but were banned from doing so under punishment of death. The Festung-Ostpreussen decree pretty much being the usual we'll fight to the last man sort of rubbish that the nazis spoutted at the end.

My mother in law is from Königsberg so she went through this. Doesn‘t talk about it though, and I doubt she can remember it TBH. The ARD thingie was well, crap really. I did love the line about the russians have entered the "memel land - in latvia", obviously written for those not so hot on their history. Almost as bad s that Dresden thing last year. The Christiansen talk was its usual dire brush over what could have been an interesting subject.

The Dresden one was made by the same folk, as was "Die Luftbrücke" - this kind of Eventfernsehen is quite the thing in Germany right now, basically it is some vague historical backdrop to a melodrama.
And the German public seems to like it, looking at the viewing figures.

As I wrote above, discussion of the topic is important, but that isn't a comment on whether it is done well or not.

Everybody's missing the main point here that Maria Furtwängler (the star of Die Flucht) is hot stuff. Her husband (Hubert Burda) is 26 years older than her!

Actually my father-in-law came here as a refugee with his mother and sister from Breslau - a harrowing story.

There was no "Sudetenland" as a province.
These were areas in Bohemia that had since the advent of the concept of borders "always" been separate from Germany until their seizure in 1938.

What Gideon said basicly.

Similarly to Dresden, we should be remembering the human suffering caused during the marches west.
But our sympathies should be going as well to our Slavic neighbours who were ALSO forced to march west and lost territories in the post 1945 re-alignment.

This is an issue to be approached with caution and your eyes open. It requires a slightly deeper grasp of the issues than provided by Ms Christiansen let alone the BURDA Verlag. You don't have to scratch very deeply on this issue to come across an oozing vein of racism and revisionism.

@MonksTown,

Did you watch Cirstiansen? I started but didn't like the tone of the debate...hard to say what exactly..so interested in your opinions on the debate.

@Gideon

The act of causing over a millions deaths through calculated actions (whether they wanted to leave or not, they were made to do so in conditions most of them could not survive.) is at least genocide and in my mind a holocaust. There is nothing revisionist about it, it has been ignored, it is recorded, it happened, over a million people died...the EXACT number is not important...

and they also made a movie about her Grandfather - Fürtwängler the conductor of the Berlin Orchestra during the War- he was tied to the Nazi's but they could never prove it, it was called Taking Sides and starred DiNero and Moritz Bleitreu. Interesting as his (her grandfather's) family changed their names, but she went back to her 'proper name' and married a Jewish man.

1 million dying out 70 million is acounting. 6 million out of 8 million dying is genocide and a holocoust.

So while nasty stuff, it is far from the nastiest stuff.

The allies did not plan nor instigate the civilians fleeing East Prussia, which is what this drama is all about. They left before the advancing russians got there, mainly due to fear of revenge by the Russians for what had been done to them. It is though a sad chapter, but war has always been a pandora's box of events and misery.

@ Stanford: I don't watch television.

On the rare occassons I do watch TV, the Einheitsbrei (porridge) put out by Ms Christiansen, posing as debate and conflicting opinion would NOT be on the menu.

I sometimes don't mind watching Ms Christiansen...it's only show that on the weekend that allows me to try and keep up with some German topical debates; even if sometimes I get a little lost at times!!!

It's the nearest I've seen to Question Time without being Question time nor having Jonathan Dimbleby!!!

@gideon
I think that you are over simplifying this a little bit. The Soviets were already in Prussia by 1944, however it was the "repatriation" that was agreed upon at Yalta, which provided a guarantee of non-Western interference and basically carte blanche to rape, pillage and murder their way to Berlin, whilst brutally suppressing Polish nationalists.

Of course I over simplified! But only to answer that idea that it was a holocaust, which it was not. It was though a tragedy of Macbeth like quality. What followed after May '45 was then ethnic cleansing on a massive scale.

The Allies agreed at Yalta on a shift westwards and perhaps the consquesnces could have been seen.
But the blame for the suffering of ordinaty people lies with the fascist imperialist war of destruction unleashed by the Nazi leadership.

And to say it again, it was not just Germans who suffered in this trek west or lost their homelands.

Which was something bought up by the polish guy on Ms Christians show, but she pretty much shot him down and changed subject. I think what was interesting was the Pole's opinion that the increasing dramatisation of personal war "victim" stories is dangerous to the understanding of the bigger picture of the history. Not that that is in anyway only a German media problem. Pearl Habour was just as bad a film as what was shown last night.

In fact the number of Germans that died/were killed during the expulsion from what was then Eastern Germany and from regions in other countries (pre-1938 at least) where Germans settled (Sudetenland etc.) is more than 2 millions (according to what I read in several newspapers that reviewed the "Die Flucht" movie). So the way the expulsion was carried out by Russian, Poles, Czechs etc. certainly represents a severe crime. No doubt this crime can be partly explained in a psychological sense of the word by what these people had to suffer from the Germans during the war. However, psychological explanation and moral justification have to be strictly kept apart. It also should be noted that German suffering during the expulsion does in no way justify a more benevolent view on German crimes during the Nazi era as a whole (especially the holocaust).

Gideon,

So you watched the debate last night (Christiansen). What was your general opinion of the debate? I wished I'd watched it now...

You missed nothing. I wish I hadn't wached it, as I always find the programme to short and everything is rushed through. They should extend it another hour or drop down to two guests IMHO, they never do any subject justice with the present format.

Would you use the same reasoning if debating the use of the atom bomb on Japan? What about the "ordinary people" of Poland after the Germans left?

@Gideon,

Okay, that is my opinion sometimes when I watch it...as things get just left said. There are always too many guests to explore or react to what the last person said; and the Moderator want's to get thru the set points and doesn't help.

Anyhow, good to hear that I'm not the only one who sometimes feel the format is a bit stiff.

It never does anything more than scratch the surface, it's like Focus Magazine. Just frustrating! Hungry minds are left wanting more.

I think the dropping of the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was wrong.
Likewise the people suffered there as a result of imperialist wars waged by the ruling class.

Since you've come for a dig I'll give you the answer I've given you a million times already:
Am I a Stalinist who supports the 1945-1989 regimes in eastern Europe? No.
Can we get back to the issue at hand please now. Thanks.

If you think that the atomic bomb was wrong, then you should also think that the ethnic cleansing, rape, murder, etc., perpetrated by the Soviets were wrong too. The reason I mentioned Poland was to give you an example of a nation which had nothing to do with the, "fascist imperialist war of destruction unleashed by the Nazi leadership", yet suffered greatly both at the hands of the Germans and Russians, the latter being the Poles' alleged liberators...

I am sure that you are not a Stalinist, but who is? I just wonder what happened to the many leftists who found ways to defend regimes in the East for many years after WWII for purely ideological reasons, even when it was clear that the Communism's impact was completely negative and even when it became clear that it had ruined half a continent socio-economically in just over forty years.

I would have liked to see that. My mom's parents were from Silesia and East Prussia, and came to Munich during WW2.

Well of course Poland suffered at the hands of both Germany and Russia.
The ruling class of both has imperial interests in that region of Europe and ordinary Poles paid the price of their capitalist ambition.

Same as the people of SE Asia paid the price of the conflict between British and Japanese imperialism.

I am not sure how applicable the term "ethnic cleansing" is in terms of the post 1945 displacements of peoples.
It's VERY keenly used by the German right who want to portray themselves as victims and victims alone.

I personally think the term is more appropriate in (say) the ex Yugoslav or Rwandan setting where leaders have deliberately created inter commual tension to bolster their own position leading to violence.

In the case of the westward deportations and expulsions after the 1945 that resulted in suffering for many people, this was something afraid to by the allies in advance rather than local rabble raising. And if we look to blame the Soviets, we have to place the blame fairly and squarely with the Pontius Pilate attitude of the UK and USA and that applies to the post 1945 situation generally in the eastern states, not just the population movements.

There is a documentary about this topic tonight at 21:45 on ARD if anyone is interested

Thanks, I'll try to remember to watch it.

Germany got shafted after WW 1 by the Versaille Treaty and to a certain extent after WWII. Whats the difference between what the Nazis (Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, Ukrainians etc) did and what the Russians did? -Brutally Rape, Torture innocent Women,Children and old men as well as have Camps not that different from Concentration Camps and commit many crimes!

How come only Nazis were put up before a International Court yet no Russians, who did the more or less the same, were ever put on trial?

The way, Russia was allowed to keep many German Citizens/POW in Gulags well after the war had finished and yet the Allies did and said nothing!
Why should a Soldier fighting for his Country and Family-which is how many German Soldiers were fighting were forced to be kept in Siberia for 10 years after the war and be continually punished whilst the Allies didnt even bother to even say anything to the Russians?

Funny how the War Crimes committed by Russian and Allied troops are ofte covered up or not referred at all. The difference between how Monsters of the Nazi regime were treated and similar people from the Allies and Russians were treated is a disgrace:

The Chenogne massacre of Surrendered German Troops by American Soldiers-No Action
Biscari Killings in Sicliy 1943 with 76 German & Italian POWs murdered by American Soldiers-Just Stripping of Rank with a couple of years Prison for the guilty.
Nemmersdorf Civilian Massacre in October 1944 by Russian Army-No Prosecution
Treunbrietzen, Brandenburg-over 1000 german Cililians murdered by Russian Army-No Prosecution
Battle of Berlin-Rape and torture of German Women and Children -No Prosecution
Katyn Massace-Polish POWS Murdered by Russians -No Prosecution
Demmin Massacre by Russian Army-No Prosecution

It was only after the war that Raping Civilians was punished by the Russians. By then it was too late as the Historical figure of 2.000.000 German Women was systematically Raped by the Soldiers of the Russian Army and often upto 40 or 50 times. Many Victims were as young as 8 years old! Still was brushed under the carpet by the Allies and the people who commited these acts were not punished. Why?

America was part of the Geneva Convention Treaty Nations, yet verbally the word was given to "Strafe any Germans in the open-even if Civilians!" that was said in an Autobiography of Chuck Yeager a top pilot in the American Air Force.

Are all Russians & Allied Soldiers Nasty and Evil? No, but those that were, deserved to be punished as much as the Nazi Monsters who were rightly tried and killed.Yet The Americans, French and British were too frightened of Stalin to make the Russians Accountable for their own crimes that they committed on Germans, Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, Austrians, Romanians, Ukrainians etc

Terrible things happen in war which shouldnt happen and certain people abuse there position-See Iraq for example as these things go on today even by Americans and Brits. Many Germans, Austrians were not Nazis nor were they all Nasty evil people as many people make out but just Normal people who often went to fight not for Hitler but for there Country and to avenge the Versaille Treaty which still angered many Germans who felt they was unfairly punished after WWI. Hitler used much of this anger to get into power and had some breaks along the way to get in to power. He also brought fear into many Germans after killing many who spoke against him especially after the Night of the Long Knives in 1934. But as ever many like to see all Germans as Nazi´s and nasty people-having lived in England with a German father know much about this.

Why shouldnt Germans be allowed to talk about this side of the War? The war affected Millions of people in different ways-many in a terrible way. Just because they are German or whatever why shouldnt they be allowed to look and make programmes on it? The war shouldnt be a Taboo subject and no German or any other should be made to feel bad about what happened f they didnt commit any crimes. Its history and hopefully while looking at it the mistakes of individuals and Nations can be learned. What is sad, is that Germans. who were not born, still feel made to feel "Dirty" about events in an era they way not born in. The programmes were very interesting and shows a side that often isnt reported about. The Christiansen Stuff I didnt see.

To a certain extent there was "victors justice" which meant that arguable war crimes committed by the Allies never came to trial.

It could be argued that the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact to divide Poland or the (deliberately instigated ?) 1930s Ukranian Famine etc were equally war crimes or crimes against humanity by by Stalin. But it is still different from Nazi Germany's agressive war of destruction against its eastern neighbours and the industrialised Holocaust.

I don't think that many people have a problem with recognising that in the displacements and great marches under hunger and duress at the end of WW2 that Germans suffered.

It needs though to be seen in context rather than as a SAT1 2 part drama or an excuse for the schwarz-braun "Vertriebene" Vereine to excert political influence or carry out racist and xenophobic ranting against our neighbours.