Why is blackface acceptable in Germany?

I just returned from some Karneval festivities yesterday, and found it interesting to see so many people in the parade with blackface, and some watching with yellowface. This combined with the blackface character in NL called Sinter Klaas really has me wondering why it is so common and apparently acceptable to use blackface here when it is considered extremely racist in the USA. Any ideas?

Probably the same reason that one in Canada does not dress up as a Native Indian for Halloween or a costume party. It would be okay if someone in the US or Canada dressed up as say Hitler or an SS Soldier, but you cannot do it here. It's just in bad taste.

And if a black person were to cover his/her face in white paint, would that be racist? PC gone mad, me thinks!

It wasn't that long ago that I remember 'gollywogs' on the jam.

Ummm...no, it would not be acceptable and I have never heard of anyone, here or in Canada, dressing up like a Nazi unless he actually was a Nazi (George Lincoln Rockwell). Even a Wehrmacht uniform would be no go for Halloween or the like.

As for blackface, it harks back to days of sanctioned discrimination and demeaning stereotypes. America obviously has that legacy and most people are not proud of it. Thus it would be considered highly obnoxious and probably quite dangerous in some areas. It does happen occassionally and the fallout is usually swift and severe.

Germany does not have this particular legacy, so perhaps they feel at ease with it. The black folks who reside there are smaller in numbers are probably not organized. I would assume they do not like it much, although I have not asked.

I saw people dressed up like Nazis for Halloween one year in Canada. It was so obviously a piss-take (the very short guy was Hitler) it was funny at the time. Not sure I'd laugh now, but I would agree with Carm in general. The farther removed from the situation you are, the less sensitive the issue is.

In the NL Sinterklaas is not Black. He is white and actually comes from Spain (used to be Turkey) Actually the American Santa Claus is based on him. Just wikipedia for Sinterklaas and get the full story. His helpers are black indeed probably as they have to go down each chimney to drop of gifts for the kids near the fire place. (used to be he was imported from Africa)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas

It ain't much if it ain't Dutch!

G.

The Mohr in Germany is millennia-old. The new Pope has the Freisinger Mohr, dating from 1316, on his coat of arms. I guess the Germans just aren't as PC as the Americans...

Ummm...yes, even Royalty do it.

The countries mentioned were the US and Canada, not the UK. I suppose you could argue that Canada recognizes the Queen as their Head of State, but you would be reaching. In any case, the reaction to Harry's costume was anything but benign. So the "no" stands.

Other than my experience, of course.

Yep--that's why I wrote "blackface" because Sinterlaas looks just like the minstrels in the photo someone else posted. I find it all very strange, but I think the poster who noted that the minority is much smaller here, and even if organized, probably does not have enough pull here to do anything about it (if they wanted to). Thanks for all of the insights.

Are you sure you're not confusing Sinterklaas with Zwarte Piet?

Sinterklaas is like St. Nikolas or Santa Clause, Zwarte Piet is his black assistant.

Germany didn't have anything to do with the slave trade as far as I know, now if they dressed up as Hasidic Jews that would be different.

Actually, blackface makeup and theatre is offensive to African Americans (and any other PC person?) because it was used to create and propagate racist stereotypes. It was used in a racist manner, which is why it is responded to as racist action. Similarly, any community that has Jewish members in it would not find a Nazi 'costume' amusing or entertaining because... well, I'm sure you all know that bit of history.

I imagine blackface is acceptable here in Germany because they
i) see it as a form of theatre and not racial abuse, and
ii) do not have a history of opressing citizens of African descent

sorry for the serious tone, but racism is serious...

I agree with you... I think the reason why it is acceptable here is the same why it is acceptable in English speaking countries for someone to call someone else a grammar nazi. I don't think that any German would ever associate something as "trivial" as grammar with the term nazi.

Political correctness is just not the same in every country. While racism is a serious topic, people painting their faces black, eating Mohrenköpfe (or even Negerküsse) and listening to "black music" is not a sign of racism, it just shows that political correctness works differently here (that is, focuses on other groups).

You are welcome to paint your face black and test your theory in Bedford-Stuyvestant or Anacostia.

But we are not in Anacostia are we? The question was why it is acceptable to do it in Germany!

Edit: If you are going to quote what I wrote, please quote my entire post to keep the context.

Are you serious strangelove ?

I think it's just an attempt to change your appearance for Fasching for christ's sake

Yet another racism junkie ?

Sorry! Not trying to change anything. Here is the rest:


Political correctness is generally a bunch of self-indulgent hyprocrisy thinly-disguised as "sensitivity", for lack of a better word. A decent level of respect and dignity towards black folks probaby would not include blackface, whether in Germany or America. The intent does not change simply because it is carried across the ocean. Do not misunderstand me. We all should be able to have fun and kid around with each other. But Blackface is something that crosses the line. Its offensive and I cannot fathom the level of a mind that would gladly do it.

So is dressing up as a Mexican just as wrong? Or a cowboy? I sure saw some of those today...

yes it is, didn't you get the PC manual handed out at birth?

Oh, wait, you are German, so you got the German Version, you can read my Canadian Version if you want, if I can borrow your German Version. Then maybe we can see TheMoth's point he is trying to make.

Here is a guy who painted his face for Mardi Gras in New Orleans. Check out the way he painted his face. Do you consider him to be racist too?

Those pics are references to 'clowning' oder? Seems to be going pretty mainstream now...

Clowns have big black afros? News to me.

The reason 'blackfacing' is not considered a problem here is due to the fact that it has no historical connotations at all in Germany (or in Europe afaik). I guess most people here will have a hazy idea that in the past, white actors would play black roles by darkening their face. If that had a racist intent in the past, it certainly hasn't survived in public memory. While I don't know much about the phenomenon in the US (most of what I know comes from Public Enemy records) and the impact it had there, I don't think it was very commonplace in Europe at any point.

Public Enemy rapped about the image of black people that was existent in the media, books etc since the slavery times. Images like the one below were widespread about blacks and it was certainly not very flattering.

look up clowning, the black dance movement and you will see that yes, a big afro is part of the look due to the 'roots' nature of the movement in it's early stages...

How interesting?! I was just discussing this with a few folks this evening. I personally was shocked to see so many people in black-face today. Something like that in the US would be so un-PC. The civil rights groups, etc would be up in arms! As an American I found it strange that it was so accepted here...at Uni a fraternity was kicked off campus for dressing up as a rap group in black face. What a difference and ocean makes.

Perhaps this sounds crazy, but the bigger a deal that is made out of these alleged racial differences and prejudices, the bigger the deal it is!

HI all, Im Jesse from Canada, living in Berlin. Im new on these boards but I have been reading them for some time. Decided to register and begin posting.

I think that racism is bad in Germany overall, but not as bad as Poland or something. I personally believe intolerance and racism is much more apparent in all of Europe than say the USA or Canada. Germany and the people still have many tolerance issues to overcome. They may try to put on a show for others and the world, but it is quite evident, judging by some of the UN and HumanRightsWatch groups on Germany. The cops are the worst, they treat people of darker skin color much different than whites. They will harrass black people for just existing around the Bahnhof, demanding to see papers, etc. while they are passing through. But yet, drug deals, Russian mafia and other such activities are ignored.

When I first came, I remember someone offering me a "Negerküss". I was highly offended and then they were embarassed and changed their name. Since then, if someone offers me a "nigger kiss", I decline and instead ask for a "Nazi Wurst". I would say 80% get it, the other 20% I could care less.

So you mean the name was changed just because of your embarassment? Wow, that's what I call selfconfidence.

NO, the name "negerküss" has not really been used in a long time (I understand it originates in the former East). But plenty of people like to use this name, thinking it humorous, I guess. were embarassed, not I, when I raised an eyebrow to the name. They reverted back to the original name. But I do think "Nazi Wurst" is pretty clever, if I do say so myself.

I don't know either- but once back in the States I was at home in my jammies with my super fabulous Origins charcoal purifying facial mask on (which a black mud mask) and my roommate's boyfriend walked in and accused me of making fun of Al Jolson. Racist gesture or beauty routine? You be the judge.

i think it is acceptable because carnival is about being someone else for the day and playing another identity. you admire the costume and appreciate the effort some people have put into looking different. at the end of the day, it is carnival.

I would like an African fancy-dress costume simply because I think Africans in general are beautiful and the dark skin color very attractive, but I wouldn't want to offend anyone with it. I would like to hear from people of color if they really do associate these costumes done with no malice with the ancient Uncle Tom routine of back when, and still find them offensive. They very possibly do, as being directly effected by those old stereotypes, their memories will be longer about them as well. If they do, we need to show respect for their history.

I had a thought about this and whether or not I could relate to how black people might feel about blackface, and I realized, to some extent, I can. As a woman, I have, on some level been offended by men dressed up as women. It's not so much the costumes themselves that are offensive though, as the way some of the men acted when in them - as if all women were flirty/vampish/vapid/bitchy/clumsy creatures. And that right there may be the crux of the issue. Perhaps it's not so much the imitation but the spirt of the caricature. But maybe it's different. Not sure.

isnt there a real connection between fasching and fake black people? I think in Venice at carnival for instance, the blacked-up costumes are to represent the North African merchants taht used to work from that city. In fact I think the 'Mohr' is probably an Arab and not black african. The same would go for that one of the three kings that in many countries is a blacked-up white guy (if they have processions like we do back home.) because traditionally there were few black guys to play the part, and the tradition stuck. Doesn't necesarrily have to do with racism, intent is the key. It's interesting to me that a colour can cause such a polarisation and yet if you mock the mannerisms or percieved habits of a particular group of people it is often seen as funny or whatever... There's so much more racism in the world than black-white these days and I think this over-reaction to something that is obviously not meant to cause offence simply masks other more important aspects...

Anyone had a 'Nigger in a shirt'.

I've seen a dark-skinned guy wearing a big afro-wig on the U-Bahn yesterday (and yes, it WAS a wig). He didn't seem to have an issue.

Thought I might mention a real case of racism from Fasching yesterday. A Friend of mine (white german) has a son (black) from a mixed relationship. They were both at Fasching yesterday enjoying themselves and got split up when she went to the bathroom. When she came back..her son was chatting with some germans. He has been brought up in germany. His mom then arrived and he introduced her...and the germans called her a "Niger bitch" on discovering that she was german and had a mixed son. Her son immediately retaliated and got angry and I think punched one of the germans. I would probably have similar reaction..if I was defending my mom. Perhaps later I would concede that words may have been better or walking away considering how drunk people are at Fasching. The police were called. The germans were left to continue their drinks...the police were not interested in hearing what they had said..or how they had provoked. The son was distraught at the unjustness of the whole situation. He refused arrest and the police broke his arm and took him to police station. How nice.!!! I am not blaming anybody in this situation just telling the story. My friend tells me many stories of how unjust her son has been treated in germany as a mixed/black compared with her own experiences as a white person.

And what would you say if he had called them "racist nazi pigs", they punched his nose and the police had not arrested them?

Yeah, I think it's unfortunate, but if they had called the police and made an report of the insult they might have gotten somewhere, but violence is considered the more grave crime here regardless of provocation.

yes Kat I agree and do not condone violence...alas sometimes in these situations..it is sometimes the only justice..otherwise you learn to live with the slurs...and as we are only human, we all have a certain overflow point, when enough is enough and you take your own revenge, if only for the satisfaction, short as it may be, that you achieve. I understand his stand..not condone it. I do think that the police breaking his arm was perhaps a bit extreme, but I am hearing the story from my friend, I was not there to witness it.

I also have experience of trying to deal with such things here through the legal system.. My advise...dont' waste your time. Its an unfortunate state of affairs, but life goes on.

I have been with 2 brothers of my friend (both mixed) visiting from UK, and they were stopped randomly many times by police. I have never been stopped..but I guess it happens to some people. They were prevented form entering a club that I go to all the time, even though accompanied by me (dont' want to get into this discussion...they were dressed appropriately, not drunk etc) It was very obvious during the visit that black people are treated very differently here and the police certainly regard them with suspicion as do bouncers.

there is a report of policmen stopping a black man, kept harrassing him, refuse to tell him what they stopped him for and kept referring to him as "neger bimbo", while smirking. btw, all this recorded on cruiser's dash cam.

finally when they refused to give their names and kept repeating "neger bimbo has no rights and doesnt get the names"...the man replied "neger bimbo is the Staatsrechtsanwahlt and will be getting your names today"...turned out he was the states asst attorney general and was in fact, their indirect boss...both lost their jobs.

justice served!

Brilliant story...cheered up my friend.

It must be noted that in some Fasching parades, efigies of Hassidic Jews and Arabs were hand and hand, Arabs dressed as terrorist (which really pissed of Muslims in Germany) and even one of Hilter bent over with feces coming out with NPD written on it. Looks like they took a spill at everyone.

I posted Prejudice a while back and was kind of appalled at the reaction to it. Blackface is highly derrogatory and I don't think it can be compared to wearing Nazi uniforms. Clearly the latter is also in bad taste, but it's not really the same situation.. but not a lot of people know about the whole Blackface issues of the early 1900s, so you can't really blame them. They'd get their ass kicked for sure if they made that mistake at a Halloween party in the US, though.

'Blackface is highly derrogatory'

I think what we've come up with here is that is that it's highly derrogatory in America because of it's historical use, not here, and defo not at Fasching. Whether we should be projecting historic guilt onto a different generation or different culture (or both) is another question, and is relevant to the Nazi question too...

You've just repeated what I said about it not being relevant here. I think it's derrogatory no matter where it happens, that's just my opinion.

but it can only be derrogatory if it is meant that way, or it is known that it will cause a certain reaction. That context is not present here in general. My friend, half-togolese, that I shared yesterday's fasching silliness with agreed...

I just came back from oldest kiddo's fasching show - quite a big production - at his school in Solln. Sitting next to a Canadian mother (it's a German school) we both about dropped our Krapfen when the kids marched in - all in costumes relating to the production of The Little Witch - and about 8 dressed as hunters in Blackface.



Though I knew how it was meant, I didn't like how is was performed. The school has a partner school in Tanzania and they integrated this into the performance. Unfortunately, the Tanzanian hunters came in beating drums and barefoot while in blackface They did sing their partner school's song in Tanzanian (I assume) with a great deal of respect.

I was very glad my kid was a cooking spoon (dressed as a shadow? go figure) as was the mother next to mine glad her daughter was something else. Still trying to decide what if anything to say at school about it.