Sex crime 60% higher in Germany than rest of EU

Deutsche Welle: Study: Crime down, but Europeans still feel threatened

According to a "Gallup Europe", a poll showed that "sex crime" in Germany is 60% higher in than in the rest of Europe. The German police statistics have no resemblance to the statistics presented by the poll.

It seems that different countries have different ideas of what a sex crime is and judging by the photograph used in the report, a "pat on the bum" at the office photocopier could be constituted as a sex crime.

It would be interesting to know what the different nationalities on the board would regard as a sex crime.

It would also be interesting to read all the poll statistics on the various crimes. France has the most "hate crimes" and the UK is the leader in burglaries and assaults.

How many people out there feel "threatened"?

Staring at the bare ankles of a burkha clad woman!

That is outrageous!

Get real, STB. Or where would you set the boundaries? A pat on the bum, an "accidental" titty-brush in the elevator, a "friendly" grip on the arm or a shoulder hug are all uninvited physical contact. I wouldn't go all hysterical and call them sex crimes but let a dog bite once and it feels it has a license.

The nail on the head Sarabyrd. A difference needs to be made between sexual harassment, and sexual crime.

Is Clinton a sex crime offender? how about all the italians who come to Oktoberfest, are most of them sex criminals? Sure, they may be macho sexist pigs, but do their groping hands really count as a CRIME? Something for which you can be punished for?

sexual harassment may lead to social punishment, like losing your job, or maybe a civil lawsuit, but sexual crime should only be used when describing acts for which it is punishable under criminal law.

Apparently, a slap on the bum in Italy would not constitute a "crime" but in the UK, if the recipient of the act were to complain the person giving the slap on the bum would be in really big trouble as it constitutes sexual harrassment.

Now, a lady who looked after my finances at the bank, back in the UK told me that there was a gay chap that was a camp as you like that worked in the same bank. He used to slap male bum, squeeze male waists etc etc, and she told me that the bank told her to "leave it alone as it was a delicate situation". If the chap were doing this to women then he would almost certainly be sacked. This is another sort of "angle" to look at what is and is not acceptable at work, amongst colleagues.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=sex%20crime

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexcrime_(Nineteen_Eighty-Four)

I work with the US military and the standards are bizarre, partly because the standards are written to protect the government from being sued over the actions of their employees. We receive regular training in TIPOSH (Training In Prevention Of Sexual Harassment) are here's some of the things I've learned from those courses.

1. Even if you, a man, notice that a collegue, a woman, has changed her hairstyle or is wearing a new outfit never, ever, compliment her as this may be seen by her as a come-on.
2. If you see a collegue who is overworked, stressed out or whatever and you offer to help make sure you are standing clear of her desk when you make the offer and never, ever, ever, make the friendly gesture of placing your hand on her shoulder when you make the offer as this could be harassment.
3. If you're getting coffee and a female collegue walks by don't offer her a cup - it might be a come-on.
4. If you're entering the building ahead of a female don't turn and hold the door open for her - it could be a sexist gesture which in itself is a form of sexual harassment.

The common thread to all of these examples, which were given in the training, is that the perception of what you intend by your actions is the deciding factor.
So if a lad wants to play it safe never compliment a woman, never help a woman, try to ignore them - unless of course they want a compliment or your help in which case ignoring them could be harassment and your fucked anyway

It is similar in the UK Royal Air Force these days. A customer who is a serving Group Captain told me the following.

Young lady in air force comes into the office and has had her regulation uniform skirt both "taken up and taken in" so it became a short and very tight skirt. Apparently she had the figure for it, but as it is against regulations she was told by her commanding officer to go to the stores and come to work wearing a skirt that is the correct issue length and fit.

Two days later she is still wearing the same skirt thereby disobeying a direct order, so again, her commanding officer tells her to change it but this time he says, "Airwoman, you have very nice legs but I have told you change your skirt for a regulation skirt, please do so by tomorrow". This was order made in a room full of both male and female witnesses.

The "Senior Aircraftswoman" then called the "bullying and harassment hotline" and complained about his remarks being of an offensive and sexually harassing nature in the latter encounter. He ended up being on a charge and given a severe reprimand whilst the Airwoman was not charged for disobeying a direct order "lest it be seen that we are putting her on a charge because he is on a charge".

He had the last laugh as he was posted somewhere where he wanted to go and his replacement was a woman...and yes, the airwoman was made to change her skirt for a regulation length skirt by the new female-commanding officer.

I fail to see how holding a door open could constitute a sexist act. I hold doors open for all and sundry, I wonder how a male homosexual would perceive another male for holding a door open, that could be a whole new can of worms.

STB, a woman's bum does not fall under "office supplies".

a woman's bum does not fall under "office supplies". - too right, it's recreation equipment!!

*takes William aside and tells him the facts of life*

Too late, a priest told me all about it, still hurts

Clearly they must count being up your own arse as a sex crime over here. In which case I would argue the figures are looking a bit lower than expected for Germany.

Was that English or Norfolk? Now I'm confused.

A Christmas Cracker qualifies as an Office Supplies, doesn't it?

Heh heh. Titty brush. Awesome.

Sorry @Sarabyrd - I just have to go where the gags take me.

It probably did especially if he didn't use any vaseline.

True, though I did learn to appreciate the healing power of holy water, especially when the rim of the font could cut into your legs

Dear all,

I have found the "Gallup Europe" poll press version and in all it's 118 pages long but I would not recommend it for bed time reading unless you don't mind sleeping with one eye open. Overall it is a fully comprehensive study of different types of crime in the EU and each country is high in some crimes and low high in others. It also goes on to talk about the general perception of crime and things like are you happy with your Police force etc.

Actually overall Germany is quite a safe country and below average for just about all crimes although as the DW says Germany is third behind Ireland and Sweden for victimisation rates for sexual offences of women (P46).

When it comes to overall crime the UK is neck and neck with Ireland as the two highest crime countries overall in the EU. The reports says that the Netherlands, Estonia and what surprises me -Denmark ! are also high crime countries. London is being awarded the title of ' The Crime Capital of Europe' where you have more chance of being a victim of crime than you have in New York.

here you go

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2006747,00.html

http://www.gallup-europe.be/euics/Xz38/dow...%20the%20EU.pdf

was there a sudden dip in the German figures and a sharp rise in the French at last year, cos I could think of an explanation for that.

The french went home? or the germans went on holiday?

Did the poll also point out that the percentage of successful rape convictions went from 20% to 5% in UK in the last 10(I think) years.

No, the Germans passed a new discrimination act last year.

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,464595,00.html

Here is another slant on the same poll. Ireland comes out the worst.

Yup, should have rounded in some more people off the streets to make the stats look better.

Juror (whispering): How are we this year on the percentages?
Court clerk: Not yet there, unfortunately
Juror: Guilty as charged!

I can't believe all the women here just let this pass. Obviously the TIPOSH people are fulfilling some rule that the training must exist, while simultaneously undermining it by making the whole thing look absurd. Teaching strict adherence to common courtesy and respect is all you need to wipe out sexual harrassment. It's really that simple.

@Kat
I had similar Sex Harrassment training when I worked for a small californian company, and the messages were very similar. Basically never speak to a woman with the door closed, don't block an exit ie don't stand in the doorway, when speaking to a woman. Do not put any worker (male or female) in a 'hostile work environment' ie swearing, pictures on the wall.. blah blah.

None of the training was presented to help the worker, but mainly it was done to ensure that should any cases go to court then the company would not be liable as it had 'provided the correct training'

Was quite interesting.. strangely though the two lawyers, who gave the training would give 1-1 advice to any likely candidates and also could recommend insurancve companies to insure yourself against a court action... strange

You were not paying attention if that is all you got from the classes. First, the policies are not there to protect the government from being sued. The military can only be sued under very limited circumstances and this is not one of them. Instead, eliminating sexual harassment is a matter of mutial respect for co-workers, unit cohesion, morale, public perception of the military, and simple good manners. Second, you fail to mention the same policies (regulations) apply to both male and female personnel (active duty, civilian employees, and facility contractors). Finally, you fail to mention one goal is to eliminate behavior which differentiates between male and female co-workers (both should be treated the same by the other, within reason and common sense of course).

The policies are not as rigid as you suggest. To make this short, lets expand on just the last item as an example (we'll cover the other three quickly below). There is no regulation which specifically states you cannot hold a door open for a woman. Again, intent is the issue. If the female is carrying a large or heavy package which might hinder her from opening the door, doing so for her is the polite thing to do - just as you might for a male co-worker. However, if that same female is carrying nothing, yet you hold the door open simply because she is a woman and men are supposed to hold doors for helpless women, you're walking the line. You're certainly not going to be reprimanded, but repeated incidents might warrant a quick discussion with your supervisor. Finally, if you hold a door open for a female in a manner intended to cause embarrassment (in a public, exaggerated, manner as a joke about this woman or women in general, for example), a more firm response might be warranted.

Notice the difference between the three examples I gave above? If not, lets try the same examples with a male co-worker instead. If you hold a door open for a male co-worker carrying a heavy package, no problem. If you hold the door open for a male co-worker because you've decided he is too weak to open the door for himself, your behavior is rude (and your supervisor would probably tell you to cut it out). Finally, if you hold the door for that same person for the same reasons in front of co-workers with the intent to cause embarrassment, your behavior is out of hand - no room for that nonsense in a workplace.

As for the other things you mention, are you complimenting the new hairstyle (outfit or whatever) or how attractive she looks to you in that new hairstyle? Again, intent is the key. If you can't see the difference, it is probably best to keep any compliments to yourself. Intent plays the same role with offers of help. Never hover over a female, at a desk or elsewhere. Men are often larger than the typical woman and are usually the aggressor in relationships. Therefore, women typically feel very uncomfortable (even threatened) in situations were men hover over them with limited means of escape (such as at that desk, in a crowded room, in a closed area, etc). Understand and respect that difference in perception. Of course, for the same reasons, never touch a female co-worker (unless it is an emergency - she is falling, the building is on fire and she needs help getting out, or whatever). Finally, are you offering that coffee to a co-worker (therefore all co-workers) or focusing your attentions solely on her? Another example where intent plays a role.

In the end, these policies are not that confusing, and should not be that difficult to comply with. In the end, honest respect for co-workers and simple good manners will usually keep you out of trouble in this regard.

Stewart

Not as simple as it sounds. What you suggest was tried twenty-five years ago, with far too many guys claiming they didn't get it - and far too many women complaining about sexual harassment as a result (much of it very real, some leading to very unpleasant situations - threats, intimidation, coercion, assaults, rapes, and so on). In response to that, the military has since implimented very firm policies, with classes offering plenty of examples to make sure everyone understands those policies.

Stewart

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Granted, but each of the examples I gave is a repeat of situations we explored in class and which the instructor told us were possible cases of sexual harassment.
The perception that most of us, male and female, got from the class is that, far from being a metter of intent, sexual harassment is a matter of perception. For example, if I hold open a door for anyone a charge could be brought based upon their perception of my actions, it is then up to be to prove a lack of malign or sexist intent.


Attention wanes when the whole thing seems so one-sided.

Jesus. The US really has gone PC mad. Can you treat a cat and a tortoise equally or do you try to treat both fairly?

My Aunt told me the other day that she's immigrating from Berkley to Europe because of "The Madness Here". She's 87 years old and American. She mentioned this unhealthy way the US has of dissecting interactions in order to define boundaries. Look at the mess.

If a woman looks attractive with a new hair cut or in a new dress, then I'll tell her, just as I am told by other female workers that they like my shoes or aftershave or whatever. "Intent"? Oh for fuck's sake. It's called being "nice".

If I was starting at a company and they showed me TIPOSH guidelines (why this anal need to give ridiculous subjects ridiculous names? Why not just harassment avoidance? Just call it TOSH) I'd tell them, quite pleasantly, to fornicate off and then question their intellect and parentage.

Amazing, that was my initial response! Mercifully my boss split her sides laughing at the response.

This joke was considered sexual harassment as one person (in HR) found it offensive:

What is the definition of continental breakfast?
A roll with a little honey.

It "nearly got me fired". Good thing I'm such an asset and too bad my company has no sense of humor.

I had one occasion years ago when a former collegue made such a balls of one project that the entire office had to work the weekend; he got off with a "how are we going to address this issue" talk while I received a serious lecture for calling him a "stupid bollox".

Saint moved to Paris?

And I used one to provide an example where it might indeed be that. However, none are automatically sexual harassment. Instead, more has to go into it - the situation, intent, and so on.

In the end, it is really not at all difficult to draw the line between acceptable and unaceptable behavior in the workplace. If your actions are at all based on an unwelcomed attraction for the other person, those actions have likely crossed the line. You need to back off and leave the situation alone. If you don't, it isn't hard to see where it might end up.


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Obviously it's matter of perception. Men (including you and I) likely have very different ideas of sexual harassment compared to a woman's perception of that. However, you and I are not usually the ones being harassed, especially in a manner leading to more serious incidents. Women are. And since we work with women in a society (and a military) where equality is the stated goal, we have to take their perceptions into account. That includes how those perceptions impact our own personal behavior. The TIPOSH classes are there exactly for the purpose of helping both male and female personnel understand the perceptions of the other.


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Lets not exaggerate. Nobody in the U.S. military has ever been charged, nor in anyway disciplined, just for holding a door. To be brought up on charges, far more would have to be involved - the sexual harassment would exist in that far more, not just in holding the door.


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Unless your class consisted solely of male personnel, it was not that one-sided. The typical TIPOSH class includes examples involving sexual harassment by and against female personnel, gay personnel, and so on.

Stewart