Joining the Bundeswehr as an American citizen

Hello everybody. I was wondering if anybody knew the process, or who to contact for guidance, for an American Citizen to join the Bundeswehr? I've been pondering this question for a few years now since a co-worker of mine brought it up as I was working for Securitas. He said it was possible, if he'd give up his American passport and become so to say, German. Any guidance on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

Please don't answer this posting if you're going to comment about my "Patriotism" and "Loyalty" to my own country, just positive comments are asked of.

Thanks.

You want to join the military and are messing about wanting only nice, happy, smiley, friendly, positive comments?! Eat a bag of 'em! You're about to learn how to use some serious weaponry and you can't take some pissy comments on some Intarwebs site? Perhaps you're considering the wrong profession.

Joining another country's military can lead to the loss of your US citizenship, even if that country is an ally. Serving another country in a military capacity can be seen as the "declarative statement" required to renounce your citizenship. You need to go to the US consulate or embassy to ask about serving the German military while retaining your US citizenship. I have little doubt that the rules have changed in the past 10 years.

woof.

Just noticed you're in the US and might have a hard time finding a US embassy there. Check the blue pages and find out where the State Department has an office near you.

woof.

What makes you want to do this?
I know of some Germans who joined the US military forces after they married a US military active duty personnel, but I never heard of this going the other way around.
As far as I know, Germans in the US military get to keep their German citizenship (you do not have to be a US citizen to join the US militar, a permanent resident can, too), not sure how it would work once they acquire US citizenship.
Not sure if this is helpful at all, but that's how it is for Germans, maybe it works the other way around as well.

And then again, maybe it doesn't. Let's see... supposition or fact? Supposition or fact? tough call but I'm betting an awful lot of people would prefer the latter, so I did a bit more digging around.

Loss of citizenship: INA § 349, 8 USC § 1481

Section 349 specifies several conditions under which US citizenship may be lost. These include:

* becoming a naturalized citizen of another country, or declaring allegiance to another country, after reaching age 18;
* serving as an officer in a foreign country's military service, or serving in the armed forces of a country which is engaged in hostilities against the US;
* working for a foreign government (e.g., in political office or as a civil servant);
* formally renouncing one's US citizenship before duly authorized US officials; or
* committing treason against, or attempting or conspiring to overthrow the government of, the US.

Serving as an officer in a foreign military is grounds for automatic loss of citizenship, meaning signing up as enlisted should be OK. However, Congress amended the law to require that loss of citizenship would result only when an expatriating action was performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality. Intention being hard to prove (short of signing the renouncing papers at the US consulate) it's unlikely that he could lose his US citizenship but it is possible.

woof.

Yeah, I just mentioned it, because I happened to have come across that before, but since I was not sure I said maybe.

I personally would find it very weird to serve another country's military, especially because there is always a chance you may end up fighting against your original home country (maybe even your brother or sister) at some point. Unlikely nowadays with Germans and the US, but not impossible.

Not at all. I might have something to say were your choices the Royal Saudi forces or the armed forces of the DPRK. But I am curious as to what your motivation is exactly. Different people want to relocate to different countries for all kinds of reasons, but you are the first I heard who desires to go somewhere specifically for the military.

If you strike out with the Bundeswehr, there is always the French Foreign Legion.

...and you would be much more likely to see some real action with them. Like the others I really don't understand your motivation, the money isn't that great and if you were some kind of sicko then you should be looking to join an army that goes to war more often.

The US is currently giving serious consideration to fast-tracking citizenship for resident aliens joining the US military as an incentive to recruit. There are other voices screaming about the downsides of having a foreign mercenary force, namely no loyalty and ulterior motives.

woof.

On the other side, if you put the prize citizenship on the honorable-discharge end of an X year service, you might get an extremely effective fighting force, each soldier being oh-so-eager to show how Ronald McDonald he has become.

Many moons ago, a workmate and I were bored silly by our respective positions. I joked that we should join the French Foreign Legion. He smirked and then pulled the actual application out of his drawer. We pledged that if we could not find something better, we would sign up in Marseille. As fortune would have it, something better did come along and I was spared the Legion, or vice versa.

Dunno- BUT I used to teach English to Bundeswehr soldiers... Fabulous job. Highly recommendable. They take you out for coffee and are really nice to you and stuff. BUT-- just a tip-- when they offer to have you sit on their lap you should politely decline (apparently the higher ups in the Bundeswehr frown upon that sort of thing... officially anyway).

Where did you teach? The University in Neubiberg?

No, it was some intensive courses offered to Bundeswehr soldiers through the IHK in Erfurt.

I would love to sit on the knee of a man in uniform... Jenny L has all the fun!

I know...

Teach English to BW guys then.
Or move somewhere that has a US military base, plenty of guys who... let me put it this way... don't think with their heads.

Ah, if it were that simple...

You mean... Aha, that's what it's for! I always wondered...

I guess I should have been more specific. I am currently stationed in Korea and have been in the Army for the last 6 years. I loved Germany. I love my German wife and my 2 half German American children. I see no future for me and my family in the us Army and in America anymore. I like the military, but I'm not willing to die for a cause I do not believe in. As for fighting against my own country, I believe that is impossible due to the relationship between the two governments and SOFA.

As for the comment about learning how to use serious weaponry, well, the fact that I've been in for the last 6 years and have endured numerous deployments and been engaged in a war which I do not condone, I believe I already have a pretty good idea what I would be getting into.

Thank you for putting forth the effort to research this topic and give me your thoughts, it is much appreciated. Any further information about the subject would also be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

cnote

I didn't realize there were armies out there where the soliders get to pick and choose which battles they fight in. I am probably opening up a big can of worms here, but isn't the deal with the Army that you enroll and then train in preparation to serve your country? If you aren't prepared to do so, or to continue to do so, then maybe military service isn't your thing? (Not you specifically- but for people considering military service in general)

@cnote
I suggest that you compare and contrast the benefits in the US and German armies before making a decision.

Much better quote if I chop it down a bit.


There. Much better. Thats the reason to join the German military - no chance of dying atall, they never get involved in anything these days.

Have you considered civilian employment in Germany with the US military?? Go to your ACAP office (there are 5 in Korea) and talk to them about your options. When is your ETS?? If it is within the next year you need to go talk to them anyway. I am sure they will discuss this with you, but don't forget about contract opportunities over here.

More than 18 Bundeswehr soldiers have died in Afghanistan and as the Bundeswehr will probably be involved in more peacekeeping missions in the future you are going to see more figures like that.

It's not a well paid job and the only way to bump up the money is by doing special duty and getting the extra allowances that such duty brings with it.

There are some rubbish responses on this thread to a very reasonable question. I don't see why the guy has to give detailed reasons for his decisions - but he very kindly has, and they make total sense to me.

He has fought 6 years already for his country which is exactly 6 years more than I have fought for my country (and I suspect some of the other posters), so if he now wants to become a german soldier, swiss postman, or french stripper I think he is 100% entitled.

He was asking for anyone to give information to help with the process. Not snidey comments questioning his loyalties, and even some questioning his bravery which frankly I find appalling. Also clever comments about the German military were uncalled for. The fact that the German government have more intelligent and less gung-ho leaders is a credit to their system.

Some of the people posting in this thread should read it again and feel ashamed.

Can you just join another country's military if you have served the military in your country already? I am not sure if that is still possible.

Yes, Mariposa you can do that. Some of the third generation immigrants in Germany do double military service.

That's true. I know someone with dual European citizenship who had just finished his time with the Bundeswehr and then had to go and do service in another European army straight afterwards.

?! Was this recent? I am almost 100% sure that there are bilateral agreements in place which exempt dual citizens from doing military service in more than one country.

Nope - not recent, it was a while ago and he tried using the 'but I've already done my military service' argument and it didn't wash. The funny thing is that the second country whose army he had to serve in abolished compulsory military service a couple of years later

Non-EU countries don't have any bilateral agreements as far as military service is concerned.

There are some, though probably not that many. France, for instance, has an agreement with about 9-10 non-EU countries, mostly in Latin America.

Though, on the other hand, and strangely enough, France doesn't have agreements with Germany, Greece or Portugal.

I have read the comments a couple times and have been quite surprised and impressed at the high level of discourse on such a potentially inflammatory topic. We're just lucky there are no American or British WWII vets active on TT.

The only person who even marginally questioned the guy's bravery was Don Riina and he was really directing his comment more toward the German military who go to Afganistan, but refuse to go the actually dangerous parts of the country. They want credit for helping, without taking an equal risk as other countries.

@cnote - why not move here, get German citizenship through your wife and then voluntarily relinquish your U.S. citizenship before taking the plunge with the Bundeswehr? Seems you'd avoid a lot of headache and uncertainty.

Bit OTT I thought there but otherwise fine by me.

I don't think any of the above were necessary or helpful.

Ok, the first two were cleared up when he explained his 6 years of service. A soldier asking people not be mean to him on a chat forum deserves a snide remark.

Regarding "the deal with the Army" comment -- a valid remark. That is the deal -- you enroll and serve without the luxury of choosing where you're sent or who you fight. If that's a problem, he should not enlist in any military.

Regarding the German military, do you disagree that is an accurate assessment? Germany can decide where and how and when to send their soldiers to fight and that's their choice. But we can also compare them to other militaries.

And the comments were very helpful as they elicited additional necessary information from cnote. Were they all necessary? Is Toytown necessary?

I disagree, Freiheit. A soldier might agree to take abuse from the enemy's side, be that in verbal form, or in bullets, shrapnel, burns, mutilations, disabilities, etc., but I think it's fair enough from someone like that to be sensitive to snickering remarks about how stupid it is to be a soldier from people on Webinet forums that would have never existed had not other members of their country subject themselves to the aforementioned abuse in the name of freedom et al. Remember, we could have been greeting each other each morning now with Heils.

Well, maybe me not.

What is the meaning of Toytown? Profound existentialist thought on Toytown - who would've guessed?

I agree. Six years is a long to serve and he deserves credit for that, no matter how much he resents or dislikes it. No doubt in every military you will find soldiers unhappy with choices made by their superiors. Their attitude does not diminish their sacrifice.

As I said, he needs to compare the benefits. Generally speaking, the US military has a good reputation when it comes to taking care of its soldiers as far as benefits and entitlements are concerned. He also needs to see what his level is and what he'd be able to do as a civilian - as alluded to prior.

Its simply not possible as an americian citizen. From the bundeswehr website http://mil.bundeswehr-karriere.de/ see Ihre Bundeswehr->Ihre Karriere


which means that to apply to the german Army in the first place you must be German. Whether obtaining a passport is good enough, as opposed to being born german, you'd want to ask the army directly.

And as for making sure that your german is up to scratch...
If you dont speak the lingo now then factor in at least a few years till you are fluent. And from the website you are expected to be able to host / moderate discussions as part of the entry process so you'd want to pretty damn hot with the german to pull that off.

Anyhow, have a skip through the Bundeswehr career website and you'll see more on the nitty gritty of conditions to join.

With that information posted by exquitius, I think, it would be best for you to get out of the army, move to Germany, learn German very very quickly, apply for German citizenship, and then join the BW. (The text sounds like you just have to be a German citizen, not born here. Males who have a German passport have to do their service, regardless of where they were born, unless they are exempt from it (because of health, living abroad etc).)

I am not sure how long you have to have lived here to get citizenship (or if simply being married to a German for a few years is enough), but I imagine even being stationed here with the army would not count towards those years (again, could be wrong). Maybe if you express your wish to join the military that process could be sped up (supposedly it works that way in the US).

But getting out of the army is a step you can only take if you have another job lined up, or can afford it.

Either way, good luck with your endeavor, and I hope you can find the best possible way to work this out.

And a question for everyone (just out of curiosity, I still have no plans to join the military): is it possible to join the US military, if you have done service in another country's military before? I thought I remembered reading somewhere that that isn't possible, but maybe I got it wrong.

According to what I've found on the german embassy website (the one for the embassy in the US), living in germany for three years, married to a german for at least the last two to go the spousal (quicker) route to citizenship.

cnote : youre most likely over the maximum age of 25 years for applying (or will be, after obtaining german citizenship).Exceptions are being made only if you have a qualification that takes longer to finish and is needed (e.g. being a doctor)
apart from that, you need to be german and speak german near perfect.
For entering officers careerpath, you also need german Abitur.
Furthermore, enlisting for a lifetime upon first application is impossible.Maximum enlisting time is 12 years, after having served that time, THEY decide who they want to stay, everyone else has to leave.
To specify a few things mentioned above : Drafted soldiers can choose whether they want to serve in a non-Nato-country (Afghanistan, Kosovo) or not, nondrafted cannot.

Contrary to what has been said, the pay can be pretty decent, because it includes
- lenghty job training (even studying for free at a university in the officers careerpath), often in much sought after jobs such as aviation mechanic, etc., driving licenses...
- combat pay for missions such as Afghanistan, yugoslavia etc.I dont know what the exact pay is now, but for a 4-6 months mission one can usually expect to get an additional 20000 - 40000 € (as a whole, not per month of course)
- benefits such as free healthcare, a free room (though uncomfortable) on the base
Apart from that, basic pay for a low rank sergeant would be (depending on age) starting from 1500 € (gross income)

HTH

In response to the above, I can only give anecdotal evidence of my own experience (from 15 years ago), but my dad was an enlisted soldier for 20 years, and there was no way he could support our family of 6 on his enlisted man's wages. He always worked an additional night job, and sometimes two, to make ends meet. Yes, we had free medical care, but it was often substandard - my severe allergies went undiagnosed for 10 years because I saw a different doctor every time and there was no continuity of care, and I had horrific dental experiences because the military saved a bit of cash by not using anesthetics on children.

Our housing was also often VERY substandard (run down, leaky roofs, vermin-infested... except for Leavenworth, nice houses there.) I can't say it was a very nice way to grow up. Maybe it has changed, but somehow I don't put a lot of faith in that. The only reason my dad kept re-upping was because he was originally drafted to go to Vietnam, did two tours there, and when he got back, was so utterly alienated by the general public that he felt military life was the safest way to continue. Then after 2 re-ups, it made more sense to hold out for 8 more years to get the pension.

Now, good benefits do come to those who serve 20 years or more - he gets a smallish, but nice pension, has free medical care for him and his wife for life, and his wife will receive his pension after he dies, so it is a kind of life insurance policy for him.

Anyway, off topic I know, but had to add my 2 cents.

Nothing is more relative than money but if the €1500 are correct then that is way below the national average which is above €2500 for a man. And €20000-40000 to risk your life?
Officers are paid according to the Bundesbesoldungsordnung so anybody interested can look up the exact figures there, the lowest rank gets €1834.

Well I am going to take a different route here and say good luck cnote..

The free university training involves you remaining in the Bundeswehr for a number of years after you qualify, so the free part is relative.

Thanks to everyone who has posted in my topic. I am grateful for the information that has been dug up and the comments that have been made. It is hard to get a few solid hours of time to look up such information when you are in a position like myself. We work and train hard and the majority of our personal time here is spent on barracks maintenance (cleaning, stripping and buffing floors), taking correspondance courses to further your military education and trying to take online college courses to further one's civillian education. I really appreciate the hard work some of you have done digging up information for me, and the criticizism is also of some help (although politely not asked for) in being able to look at my position and ask myself the questions you all have posted.

I speak fluent German and would never dream of trying to join a military who's language I did not speak, or live in a country where I can only manage to order a beer (which is the case for a great number of Americans I have met in Germany) and say danke. Ultimately, I'm just trying to get my family back to Germany without selling everything we own and starting completely over from scratch, which is what we would have to do. My job in the military has pretty much evacuated Germany and it is no longer available as a duty station. So clearly anyone can see my concern. I have a visa in my passport but it expired the day we left because I hadn't had it longer than 3 years (just barely over two).

Once again I would like to say thank you for all of the help. If anyone has any questions about the US military, (unclassified, of course) I would be pleased to help you.

Thanks.

cnote