Germany demands EU ban on Nazi symbols

I was just wandering through German news as I am want to do and I saw this article in the Guardian about an EU wide ban of Nazi symbology and references to the holocaust.

They are basically looking to apply existing German laws to the EU such that denial of the Holocaust or anyone wearing or exhibiting Nazi symbols would come under the remit of new legislation criminalising such acts or actions.

The point was made that had these laws been already in place, then Prince Harry would have been breaking the law when he paraded in a Wehrmacht Uniform with the swastika armband at a fancy dress party, something that he later apologised for once it was pointed out to him how stupid and insensitive it was.

Now, i do understand that this is an emotive issue for many people of all different nationalities across Europe but is it right for Germany to attempt to use it's time as Presidency Of the EU to bring in Germany specific statutes to the rest ?


Several countries including Sweden and the UK would probably not accede to new pan-European laws and further expansion of the powers granted to Europol.


So, what do we think? Is this a sensible action to take in the midst of heightened xenophobia and anti-muslim sentiment?

Or, is this needless expansion of European Bureaucracy in general and Europol in particular?



Europol, the European Police Office

Luckily its still the case that just because one country in the EU "wants" something (be it that Turkey join the Eu or sommat else) it doesnt automatically mean that all other countries support it.

This needs a cross-link to the latest post on the David Irving thread.

Put this coot in jail!



Bastard.

@DW
Model airplanes is the first thing I thought of when I started reading the thread!? Actually it's getting harder to find models with "vintage" decals - they've mostly been replaced with Great Dictator-ish "X"s, which look ridiculous to be honest.

I'd say it's not only a needless expansion of EU powers, it's a needless violation of freedom of speech.

What would be the fallout of this kind of legislation on, for example, films like the new Hitler comedy?

The fact that the Swastika symbol was appropriated by the Nazis, and has a much longer history than that apparently recognised by this endeavour, surely means that, even if the law is passed, it would be unworkable in most cases. Anyone 'exhibiting' a Swastika might argue that it is simply a good luck symbol. Alright, if that person is shouting Nazi slogans too... but what if he/she isn't? The Guardian article is full of anti-EC sentiment.

I have only three words to say on this topic. Thank you Germany.

I have 4 words: Get over it Germany

Must be silly season in Brussels again. I have no problem harmonising the Destruction of the Rghts of Freedom of Speech. Whether or not my Granddad (Egypt and Italy fyi) would turn in his grave at the fact that he watched his mates die to protect that very thing is a debate in itself. And that at the initiation by the very country that caused all the kaffufal in the first place.

Could we prupose a harmonisation of the tax laws too? Britian adopts State censorship if the rest adopt British Taxes.

The usage of the Swastika predates the short-lived NAZIs by 1000s of years. Banning it universally throughout Europe denies evaluating their insidious modus operandi. They integrated the most desired aspects of other cultures into their cult:

The Roman Salute
The Roman Eagle
The Swastika

Cool uniforms though...

And Britain's level of public services and infrastructure?

Seriously. It's not a "silly season" but Germany's chance to put on the table everything they'd like.
That doesn't mean its going to happen.

That's the IT contractors screwed then.

No it's Silly. To think these people are actualy paid to think up useless irrelevant and complete waste of time things like this. Why the fuck don't they concentrate on something useful. Like getting the taxes down. Creating Tax Free Beer zones. Removing VAT from essentials such as Widescreen HDTVs and Laptops. Or banning DER and DIE as words as they are sexist and forcing the germans just to use DAS all the time.

I'd definitely support an Article to Ban All Sexist Articles.

Gideon for EU president.


People accuse the British of not being able to let go of WWII sentiments, but it often strikes me that the Germans actually enjoy reminding everyone of their nazi past even more. Yeah, yeah, they apologise alot about it, but I reckon they like to do that just to remind everyone about the days when their army was well hard, rather than the completely and utterly pointless drain on the German economy that it is now. "we are all really sorry about that shit when we were a super awesome war machine and soooo nearly kicked all your butts".
There was a porn photograher bloke on some sex program the other night, German bloke, who used to be a fighter pilot. How much action did Gerry planes see in the last 30 years? BLoody none, yet they still cane money on planes and have military service and shit. Military service man. What a joke. The Germans carry an arrogant attitude of intellectual enlightenment* and pacifism, born out of the realisation that their days of starting world wars was very naughty indeed, but yet still subjuct their male youths to military service. Well enlightened.

That was sweet. Haven't let rip at the locals for ages man.

*They all wear glasses for this reason, and claim that classical music is actually good, even when the only adjective they ever use to describe it is fucking "schon"

Depends what you call silly.
We get all wound up about the swastika issue and are relieved when it finally dies down.
But the twunts in the meantime have sneaked in a EU wide DNA database or summat on the sly.

It's German politicians that are doing their best to stop the EU introducing more taxes on beer!

It's like the video games issue. A lot of it is grandstanding for domestic consumption

DNA database is cool. But i feel an implanted chip would be better. Think of the advancement to society! No more passports, no more keys to lose. And all the shit we hate can be regulated. Drink driving? Nope, as you paid by implant chip the chip knows your consumption, and as your chip opens the car the car can check whose driving and refuse to start. Stupid healthy people using an escalator or lift when some poor crippled old git really needs it? No problem the chip lets the stairs know in advance and sorts it out? No I want DNA-IMPLANT-CHIPS and 24/7 police state video. And dissolve all forms of democratic representation. Let the people vote using Toytown style polls! My plans for world domination are here in my head. All I need is the time and money...

Again, Gideon for president. Chips in our heads would be wicked, in fact, mini computers would be better. Eventually, they could log into google and display search results directly into our retina like an HUD. Would completely and utterly rid us of the need to fill our brains with years or fucking pointless facts from Geography & History lessons. When did some fuck boring king from Mesotamia die? Who fucking cares, google. Where is Mesopotamia? Who cares, google.

Of course, all that would happen is that people would completely misunderstand the capabilities and opportunities of having a computer in their heads, and simply spend all their time playing bloody solitaire, or filling up their brain with supposedly humourous videos from utube of cats falling out of a tree, or monkeys drinking their own piss.

Ccool Retina HUD sat-Nav, then we could all have fun watching people walk into lamposts 'cos the nav didn't say they were there. Maybe we could type using "steven hawkins eye movments too. Then we could mail and surf Toytown in the dark at home. Or while swimming!!! We'd call the system eye-mail! and eyeternet technology.

You could superimpose videos of Jane Seymour over the missus face when you're plating her. That'd be golden man. Not sure if I'd choose the "live or let die" Jane Seymour, or the older and perhaps more alluring "Dr Quinn" Milf model. Wow, if those were the only sort of things you had to think about all day...what a brave new world...

Not to be upstaged, Tony Blair is proposing a ban on Lederhosen across the EU.

Not just Nazi emblems, also denial of the holocaust. And other important regulations. But what with the short presidency I'm surprised if the EU gets anything done ever.

I though it was always silly season in Brussels.

Taken from the BBC website:


full story here

This is reassuring, all this talk about banning swastikas must mean that there are no other policy issues at the EU level worth discussing...

This is a typical German case of "We need more rules!"
There is a gap! Lets fill it! Some clearly do not realise that other countries are not as rule bound as Germany.

I say NO!

I thought there was a difference between the swastika and the hindu symbol for the sun in that the arms point different directions.

Hitler reversed it. The reversed version is I believe said to bring bad luck instead of good luck as when it points in the other direction. And it did indeed bring bad luck...

So are they going to ban both the hindu symbol and the swastika or just the one. If it is just the one and you see a hindu symbol reflected in a window, it will be illegal.

Hitler didn'T reverse it. The original was shown in either direction.

Eg: In Wikipedia


Anyway, Angela should get her priorities right. She wants to initiate 2 stupid things in 6 months:

1. Revive the EU constitution --> France and NL voted against and UK and Nordics surely are against
2. Ban swastikas and holocaust denial --> Exists in countries where they already want it.

In other words, the German tenure of the EU presidency is calculated to be a complete waste of time.

I think Germany needs to re-evaluate the way it's coming to term with its past. Banning the symbol is not, in my view, likely to be of any use at all. I'd much rather see Germany confront her past, accept that it happened, and celebrate the fact that it is in the past. Banning the symbology of the Reich is tantamount to denying it ever existed in my eyes. What next? Denial of the holocaust?

No, because they want to make that a penal offense as well.

So on the one hand Germany is seeking to destroy all memory of her past, and on the other hand is seeking to criminalise anybody that denies an element of that self-same past?

Again, these are suggestions from Germany and not everything is going to go through.
If the Dutch had the presidency they'd be after a ban on caravan jokes etc etc.

What MIGHT go through is scary stuff about databases which you may well have you eye off while everyone is frothed up about swatikas.



You have put your finger on it Jimbo; the German state has doublethink on this.
The state is of course opposed to Nazism. But at the same time it alone wants to be the organ that puts it down.

So you have the bizarre spectacle of the police confiscating banners on AntiFa demos that use Nazi symbols against the NPD, an anti-fascist shop in baden-Würtemburg being closed down becasue it sold badges with crossed out swastikas, a munich City Coumcillor arrested and charged for blockading a fascist march becasue the city (had been forced to) authoritse it.

Banning swastikas they see as "job done" rather than dealing with the issues around racism and xenophobia.
Indeedd the state and the established parties half the time give succour to the development of those ideas.

I must admit that i find the whole thing to be bizarre to be honest but i definitely, definitely do not want any widening of Europol powers be it databases or anything else.

A Police state mentality with the Police not being accountable to any one governing body ? No ta.

Exactly BlueDave but they will be selling that as

Anti-Terrorist
Anti-Child pornography
Anti-Illegal immigrant

and daring anyone to say "no".

Might I be cynical in saying they've shoved the swastika issue on top to get people talking about it and no other proposals.

I am a little confused about banning of the swastika. Im a model builder, not much else i could do after i broke my back 11 years ago. Anyway i have the odd one or 2 (more like 1000) model kits, and some are German WW2, infact a girl from Berlin visited me in Dec, asked me what i want so i said pop along to MOTAG in Berlin, a model shop i was in in Apr. She got me a brand new model, a FW200 from WW2 and a book, in the book was loads of orig fotos showing the real planes with Swastikas. I asked my German friend in the IPMS (international plastic modellers soc DE) and he said i couldnt display them in public. Anyway if there are any model makers here, here is a DDR Mig i did some time ago http://www.ipmsdeutschland.de/Flugzeuge/Ga...21_F-13_de.html

I'm a sad anorak all the railway timetables you can buy from the era have the swastika blanked out.
At Hauptbahnhof where there are imported books, any covers that have aswastika on them have that blanked out.

I think they are only allowed in historical representation.

ah ok thanks..that makes sense..they can have them in books of military aircraft, yet when someone makes a model of a historical famous aircraft its a no no :-)

Banning Nazi paraphernalia and holocaust denial is undemocratic and, in any case, a complete waste of time, in my opinion. You have a wide variety of wackos in the United States who freely bitch incessantly about Jews and they have always been and will always be fringe groups. What German politicians conveniently fail to realize is that the best way to combat far right politics is to govern efficiently. Yes, it's that easy. Of course it's a lot less time consuming to make grandiose statements about banning this, that and the other instead of really asking yourself why they score very well in some states in the first place.

JW and MT in political agreement shocker!

Clothes like this would be illegal then...

They would be better off ban the cross and making it illegal to say that god exists.

Angela just smelt the coffee.


Source: http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/st...d4-f88dc42e2ed9

And pop goes the second topic on the agenda of the 6 month German EU presidency.


Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2577694,00.html

who in the hell do the Germans think they are? banning a symbol relevent to Buddhism, Hinduism is intellectual arrogance gone very, very wrong. Idiots.

Well, thank goodness common sense has prevailed re the swastikas. The Germans do seem to have a weird obsession with symbols though. It's as if they think the symbols themselves have some kind of voodoo power, and so anything that just happens to resemble a swastika, Nazi salute or whatever, must therefore be eradicated in order to banish the evil.

Santa Claus models doing the Nazi salute
Germans see swastikas in English leather buttons

Creepy.