Comparing life in Cologne and Zürich

Hello all,

Just joined the forum today as we are considering a possible move to Cologne from Zurich. The job offer for both of us is very interesting, but we are concerned about our children, as we moved to Zurich from the States only a few years ago, and it has taken this amount of time for them to adjust (especially the older one). I am American and my husband is Swiss. Things I am interested to know is how does Köln compare to Zürich in terms of life style, nice apartments, liveliness, shopping, and local German schooling? My eldest child is in Sekundarschule, second year, and my youngest is in 1st year of Primarschule (Swiss schools).

Private schools in Switzerland are prohibitively expensive, so we never considered them an option. I have not been very happy with the schooling system up till now, although my youngest, thankfully, has a wonderful teacher for the next few years here. My eldest, because she didn't speak German upon moving here, is locked out of any chance to go to Gymnasium in Switzerland. She is extremely creative, but German and math are not her strengths, and these are requirements in Switzerland for moving further in higher schooling. (In the US, she would have had no problem.)

Things I don't like about living in Zurich/Switzerland: shopping and schooling hours (I think this might be similar in Germany), schools, lack of diversity, reserved behavior of the Swiss (I lived in southern countries, and am happier in those places), too EXPENSIVE, too rich, too many rules (!), I miss big-city living, I miss seeing tons of foreigners and other cultures (altho Zurich is apparently much better now than say 10 years ago), too insular, not open and crazy enough, too quiet, I miss the aspect of grittiness and metropolis and everything being open at all hours such as one finds in NYC, Madrid, etc.

Things I like about Zurich/Switzerland: SAFE, beautiful, VERY friendly and kind people (although reserved), the friends we have made, the ease of living in some ways (everything works), nice Kinderhort for youngest (although expensive), our neighborhood, my work/job and the people I work with, the connections we've made, my husband's family is here, ease of going anywhere in the world (big airport), being in the center of Europe, the mountains, peaceful.

Hope this isn't too long. We have to decide asap so I wanted to be precise! THANKS!

I have never been to Cologne so can't comment there, however lived in Zurich from 1996 to 2000 and Bern in 2002/2003. I think the list of positive points that you made about CH at the end apply to Germany roughly too.
We have only been living in Munich 7 months and I can't envisage ever leaving and am certainly more at home here that I ever was in ZH. The wealth/arrogance/snobbiness of many of the Swiss really got me down (especially as I was first there at and involved in the height of all the WWII/ Jewish money squabbling) and you don't come across that to the same extent here.
I actually like the Germans more than the Swiss!! Which I never would have believed before I lived in Munich (and years of hearing the Swiss joke about Germans and Austrians).
You might find some of the things that you didn't like in CH the same here too (shopping hours, no 24 hr culture), however it is certainly more REAL in Germany. I think you will have the same schooling issues too... There don't seem to be as many "rules" here though.
I wish you luck in deciding, its a very hard decision to make. You should definitely visit Cologne first before deciding.

I am not on an Expert on either city have lived between Frankfurt and Munich but I think can give you some pointers:

1. First, Zurich is a banking city similiar to Frankfurt so attracts lots of a certain type of professionals...schicki-micki and firmly stuck in the banking rat-race of bonuses and status etc. However, the industry profile in Koeln is different - Media. So, I think you will find a different City atmosphere just on that point alone.
2. Most of my friends in Banking say that the Swiss (Zurich Swiss) are very closed. And that includes people moving from Frankfurt which isn't the friendliest city in the world... One friend put it this way that the Swiss (Swiss Zurich) have the worst trait of the British and Germans mixed...(British Snobbyness and German exactness!). Koeln is famous for being one of the most friendliest and open cities in Germany...and a friend I've got to know in Munich backs that up and misses it.
3. Zurich is a beautiful City with the Lakes and has great nature including skiing/snow barding close by. Koeln does not have mountains near by and can't imagine the nature is so amazing as well. So after living in Munich which also has great lakes and the Alps, I can imagine it would be great reduced quality of life - if you value such things.
4. Multi-Cultural - Koeln is not exactly famous for being so multi-cultural - in terms of ethnic multi-cultural it would be Hamburg and Berlin...in terms of international it would be Frankfurt (because of the Banking). But since you are in Zurich you will already have that style of multi-cultural...French Banker vs a Spanish Banker (Toll). But from my London/NY experience, you will be hard find to find such an international city that is deeply multi-cultural and international in Germany or Switzerland. But if you want a relaxed city at least from reputation then Koeln sounds like a good bet.

Just thought I'd give you some pointers but TT is great at finding people who have actually done the same thing - so they can give you tips and pointers based on first hand experience.

Best of Luck...

What always amazes me about TT is the amount of free advice you get about towns which people have never been to, and a lot of it is even accurate! I absolutely agree with Renia though - spend a day or two getting a first-hand impression. I've only been to Zurich once, so I can't give you a comparative assessment - just my "Koelsch" experience after 5 years here.

I wouldn't call Cologne a metropolis, even though it has nearly a million inhabitants (4th after Berlin, Munich and Hamburg): it doesn't really have a big city feel - probably because it's quite sprawling. On the other hand, NRW as a whole has the highest population density in Germany - there are 10 or so other semi-megacities within an hours' drive (bit like the Midlands in the UK). Transport connections are excellent provided you avoid snow storms or other motorway disasters (we had a lorryload of spilled washing up liquid last time we ventured down the A3, which nicely foamed up after a shower). There are also two major airports Duesseldorf and Cologne/Bonn within 30-45 min.

At first sight Cologne itself is pretty ugly apart from the fact that the Rhine runs smack through the middle. The inner city in particular desperately needs replanning - something they failed to do after we flattened it nicely for them in '45. The surroundings are also rather flat, true enough (and there are a lot of cycle paths which make the most of this), but there are plenty of national parks within striking distance - Siebengebirge, Sauerland, Eifel - the latter two even have snow occasionally. Closer in, there's actually plenty on offer - sports facilities, philharmonic orchestra, opera, theatres, lots of museums, big library, cinemas (incl. English language). Ex-pat activity is a bit sporadic - Cologne TTers seem to be less organised & outgoing (yours truly included) than their wild counterparts down South.
However, there is, for example, an American Womens Club that meets in Cologne - link is somewhere in the Wiki. Generally you'll find people quite down-to-earth, welcoming and cheerful (sometimes unbearably so - especially at this time of year!). In suburbia you also find a pretend-to-have-money breed (but which town doesn't have them?) - right now our estate is suffering from a black off-roader epidemic. We're hoping it'll pass when the tax on car exhaust emissions is raised, or there's a selective city ban on the monsters.

Clearly you'll have different priorities to the majority of young, single professionals who post similar queries - they're mainly concerned with social/night-life and look to relocate as centrally as possible. I'm curious as to what sector your jobs are in - this can influence which side of Cologne you should concentrate your flat/house search on. To the south and west ('linksrheinisch'), there are quite a few out-of-town suburbs to consider which vary in leafiness/price. In the centre, you won't find much for less than 10 Euros per square metre.

As I've mentioned before on TT, schools are hopelessly variable here, and it pays to shop around - especially at the secondary level. I'm a bit shocked to hear that your older daughter is locked out of Gymnasium in CH - I'm sure that would be unconstitutional here. They've just introduced more-or-less compulsory 'integration' courses for non-EU citizens, and pre-school kids have to do extra German classes to get them up to speed. If you can cope with the fees, there is (or will be soon) a choice of international schools in Cologne - there are at least 2 each in Duesseldorf and Bonn. No idea what they cost though - it was too much for us, in any case. Otherwise, there is also quite a wide variety of public vocational schools (eg catering for the media or music sectors). A constant problem for us (both full-time) is afternoon child-care - we have a 7th grader and 3rd grader, both girls, and the younger one finishes at 1pm or so. At the moment we manage by working from home a couple of days each.

OK, I've said enough - have a look for yourselves. Otherwise feel free to PM me if you need to know anything specific.

In that case the Bavarian school system at least is unconstitutional. I know the school system in Germany varies from one Land to another (as it does in Switzerland, between cantons), so perhaps there no selection in NRW such as that described below, but I'd be suprised to hear that schools in Bavaria and NRW are radically different.



(Excerpt taken from muenchen.de link provided in the above thread)

Sure, Kay, you're quite right on that count: of course there's a minimum grade here too, plus the teacher's recommendation etc. (Bavaria is usually stricter than NRW from what I hear.)

What missyj said though, was:

Isn't that a bit discriminatory?

edit: math can be adversely affected by language barriers too - I can't understand most of my kids' homework!

Wow! Thanks so much everyone. I am only a member since this morning and already so much info...(we have something similar here, too, in Zurich, an Expat Yahoo group). Isn't the internet great...?!

Just a clarification: it is not that my daughter is locked out of Gymnasium (it was just a figure of speech), it's just that with the focus here on German and math (and French, depending on when you take the test to get in), she simply could not pass the exam nor make the grades to get in (she is also not a particularly hard worker nor very academically focused). My frustration with the system, is that, unlike other places I've lived in where the focus is on what you are good at (you can be at different level for different subjects), here you MUST do well in German and math. My daughter has always been average in math, and she only learned German a few years ago, plus her Swiss German is much better anyway because that is what everyone communicates in. Nonetheless, in the US, I know she would have gone to university and probably have studied for a career in the arts or writing, but here, she has to look for an apprenticeship, and will never study literature or higher sciences and history, etc., only what would be relevant for her career choice. It is not a terrible system, and is good for many people, but one that saddens me.

By the way, we would be working in the Ehrenfeld area, which I think I have seen posts that this is a nice area to live in?? Schools?

THANKS!

Then she could be a candidate for the so-called 'zweiter Bildungsweg', a kind of 2nd chance route (based on adult-ed./'Abendschule') that you can take to improve your qualifications and then enter the university system as a mature student.
Actually if you get a decent grade from Realschule, you can in theory still go on to do Abitur at another school - probably lots of strings/conditions attached though, and I'm not the person to ask (anyone know the rules here?).

Don't know it myself apart from getting lost there a few times. Quite stylish town-houses and lively, independent centre.
If you want something close but leafier, look at Junkersdorf and Lindental.

@fnkygbn
Wasn't quite sure whether you'd read this part of missyj's post since you made no mention of it at all:



@missyj

I'm sorry but it is possible for children in CH to go to the Gymnasium and on to University even after apprenticeship / vocational school (of course it means a lot of work and they will be older than their classmates, but they will also be more mature and more motivated). A Swiss friend of ours did just that: initially an apprentice pharmacy aide, he is now a veterinary surgeon (he studied in Zurich, by the way). After reading your post I wanted to check whether the system had changed in the meantime, and this is what I found on the Zurich-relocation.ch website:


Basically, the two systems - ZH and NRW - seem to give a "2nd chance", as fnkygbn wrote about NRW, so that option would probably be a possibility for your daughter.

Good luck!

Yes, I had, thanks, just failed to acknowledge - must improve my netiquette.


Quite agree - a colleague of mine comes from a farm in the Eifel: he recently completed a Diploma in Informatics at the Fernhochschule Hagen (equivalent of Open University in the UK) with flying colours, and is now starting a PhD at 40-something. Apart from that he's the most important guy at work - has his hand in absolutely everything and should really be running the place.

The classic example of unorthodox career planning is of course
Gerhard Schroeder's CV

So take heart - all is not lost because of a few flunked grades!

Yes, I know, that there is a second chance here in CH, and that's all and good. However, I am not really that interested because I am against the system and the way they do things here, and don't think I will change my mind, so for me there is no real point in further discussing it. I have accepted it, but don't feel particularly good about having brought her here (had no idea it would be like this). I know other countries follow similar systems to the US, where you are tracked according to your performance in a subject, so you can still feel worthwhile and intelligent even if you suck at math. My daughter has simply come to the conclusion that she is not intelligent and never will be, and was told by all her teachers that she would have no chance and shouldn't even bother trying (she is fairly lazy, so you can imagine how much that helped!). Very, very different from her experience in the US where her many skills were encouraged and applauded.

Anyway, although I appreciate all the feedback on this topic, let's not bother further discussing..didn't really mean to get into it. Much more interested in learning about the quality of life in Cologne. As they have so many TV stations there, I am wondering if she could get apprenticeships there...? Her current idea is to perhaps become a stylist for photo shoots, TV, and film. She is clever, bright and creative, so I am hoping she will find her path eventually. I am just sad that the wonderful world of literature is not being opened up for her in school (and yes, I have tried giving her English books to read that she would have read in US highschool, but no luck). I really was shocked to discover that they have not read one book in school here, and even when she graduates at 16 (something I find horrifying), she still won't have read anything in school, nor written any papers! I also have to say that the children of my friends in Spain seem to be getting a much better education. (By the way, many of my Swiss friends are also very unhappy with the system here, unless the kids are in Gymi.).

Regardless, thanks again for feedback...what about good restaurants??

Hi everyone!

Hope my english is good enough to explain how Cologne is! Well, I´m german and I live in this area nearly my whole live. I have been to lots of places around Europe and visited Swizerland once. I can´t say anything about the schoolsystem, because I know only the german...and thats ages ago;-) I know there is one International school in Köln-Sülz, but I have no idea if its any good. But I know a lot of german kids, who doing their abitur(alevels) in a foreign language. You can choose between the English Abitur and the French Abitur. You´ll have to ask around , which school are offering this kind of Abitur...

Well, Cologne is on the first look ugly(but this has been already explained) But with the river rhine, the cathedral, great events, openminded people and great green parks around the city...I think it´s worth living here. Cologne is a great place for concerts, pubs, events and restaurants. Ehrenfeld is popluar at the mo, especially for sudents and it´s a multi kulti area. I think you should have a look around, which area is your cup of tea. it is hard to find a house is the city area, more in the suburbs around the city, but you won´t find any city life there!!! If you like a bit of green, nice pubs and a tram to take you into the city you should look around Sülz, Klettenberg, Südstadt or Lindenthal.
And if you should miss the great mountains and lakes in Switzerland...the cologne airport offers cheap flights all around Europe!
In 2 hours you can see the seaside in Holland, NRW NorthRhineWestphalia has a lot to offer, Eifel, Sauerland and Siebengebirge offers you great nature!

I wish you lots of luck! If you´re in Cologne, just drop me line and I show you around!
fotosonne@yahoo.de