Sky TV might soon be legally available in Germany

Does the following link mean we might soon be able to get Sky, and others satellite channels, legally here in Germany?

The "Television Without Frontiers" directive

...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

when someone has worked it out, let us know

Which part of this makes you think that there may be a change in the offing?

the use of the word "illegal" is ínappropriate.

There is no law banning the reception of Sky or the use of Sky equipment in Germany. Therefore it is not illegal.

The use of a Sky card outside the UK and Ireland is, however, a breach of the Terms and Conditions of the Sky contract. By using them here you are simply in breach of a civil contract and nothing more. Ergo, it is not "illegal".

Except that you are obtaining goods/services by deception... and that's criminal.

I don't think that law counts when the only bit of deception is the address to which the box is registered.

A loophole is not deception.

Obtaining services by deception is part of the Theft Act (http://www.lawteacher.net/Criminal/Property%20Offences/Theft%20Act%201978.htm) - I think Sky would have trouble using this once they have been paid for the services they provided.

This business of the EU getting satellite TV sold universally around the community is raised every so often and the answer from Sky is always that they have only purchased broadcast rights for English language programs for the UK and that copyright prevents them from broadcasting to the rest of Europe. Apparently, English language programming rights are expensive compared to some other languages (such as German) and this is why the German broadcasters can broadcast so much in the clear (according to Sky).

Problem is that it could be interpreted that you provide a false statement when signing the contract. Sky are bound to ensure that only viewers who are UK (+Ireland) resident may receive those programmes. By providing false information you are leaving Sky open to being sued by the copyright holders (thus facing a potential financial loss).

Anyway, it's extremely unlikely anyone would find out...

Taken from... http://www.lawcom.gov.uk/docs/lc276.pdf#se...0deception'

"...that he will suffer economic loss or his economic interests will be put at risk"

Sky would have not suffered any economic loss as they would have been paid. Nobody can show that theft has taken place.

It could even be argued that rules restricting services to use in a single member state are against EU law concerning the free market.

Anyway, how many Sky customers have been taken to court for use of their services outside the UK - either criminal or civil?

Adi, I think you'll find that legislature and court rulings in the UK are not binding in Germany .

The question is not about theft but about intent. The effect is that you endanger Sky's commerical interest by leaving them open to any damages claims from copyright holders.


I'll think you'll find that as a Britsh citizen (and with a contract with a UK registered company) you are subject to British law.

Wow! British law applicable in Germany! What next? The Germans insisting that Brits in the UK pay a pfand on their bottles? Forbidding Brits to wash their cars on the streets of the UK? Fining Brits for Jay-walking in the UK? All regulated by the the BGB (Britisches Gesetzbuch) english edition

Adi, contract law is covered by English common law and has no jurisdiction in Germany. The only course of action open to Sky is to simply terminate the contract and de-activate the card because you are in breach of the terms and conditions of the contract. English contract law only provides for 3 outcomes to a disputed contracted: compliance, termination or compensation.

Obviously compliance is not an option and for Sky to claim compensation they have to prove a direct economic loss as a result of that specific contract, which they can't because you have paid the subscription like any other customer. This only leaves termination an option.

As for criminal proceesings, it would be virtually impossible for Sky to bring any against non-UK resident. There are too many things that the prosecution would have to prove.

I still dispute that UK courts have jurisdiction on any actions taken whilst in a foreign country, whether the person in question is a British citizen or not. In fact nationality is actually totally irrelevant. The deciding factor is not nationality but jurisdiction. UK courts only have jurisdiction over crimes taking place within the borders of the UK, with very few exceptions (war crimes being one). Any court trying to prosecute for a crime taking place in Germany would be actring "ultra vires".

Besides, I was watching Sky Sports one afternoon, waiting for the rugby to come on, and they had a telephone link with some ex-manager of a football team who comments on the games. He was watching the games on Sky at his home in Spain. If they won't cancel his subscription or press criminal charges against him, they can't against anyone else. If they knowingly accept that the practice is going on, is is classed as implicit acceptance of the practice, therefore a conviction could never succeed.

Obtaining services by deception is part of the Theft Act.


The copyright holders would have to show that Sky had been negligent in enforcing these restrictions. As Sky's Videoguard is the ONLY PayTV encryption system that has yet to be cracked and they are known to terminate contracts of customers who they find to be non-UK resident, the copyright holders would be on a hiding to nothing.


Yeah - CIVIL law and not CRIMINAL law (like any part of the Theft Act). Sky could try to sue a non-UK resident customer but they would first have to show pecuniary loss, they would also have to show that they had tried to agree terms before going to court and they would have to get the customer to appear.

I didn't mean that as a Brit you were subject to all UK laws when abroad . But yes, it's certainly true, that some criminal activity of a Brit commited anywhere in the world is within the jurisdiction of the UK courts (eg murder).

While it is extremely unlikely (and extremely improbable) that Sky would start anything with someone living abroad (it just wouldn't be worth it when they could deactivate the card) it doesn't make it impossible.
You've (or someone else on your behalf) signed a contract with a UK company with the intention of breaching the conditions of that contract. That contract is within the jurisdiction of the UK courts and any proceedings could therefore be heard in a UK court. That it would be nigh-on impossible to enforce is another issue. Practically speaking, you could happily ignore it if you were resident here... as I said in one of my first posts in this thread.

Exactly - it is a matter of contract law - a civil and not a criminal matter as you originally stated. I haven't heard of people being locked up for gazumping but that happens regularly and with an intent to make a gain and cause a loss.

A UK civil court is unlikely to accept a case involving a foreign resident (regardless of their citizenship) as they have no jurisdiction where the person is resident. When I wanted to sue someone in the UK, it was done in a UK high court for that very reason - a German court could not make them appear here.

Me thinks that some of you have become more German than the Germans themselves.

Theoretisches gebabbel und immer gerechtfertigt

loosen up guys!

Jawohl! Ve heff bekomm infekted...

I just like arguing. :-)

*thumbs up*

I noticed that loads of Brits seem to hate laws and order and to follow rules, as long as it does not concern THEIR needs. Then they suddenly seem like qualified lawyers or judges and seem to know every single paragraph

Nöööööööööö - that's Germans you're thinking of. Lot's of rules but everyone takes a great deal of pleasure bending them.

Yeap - and if your thinking about breaking the terms of some agreement, it's probably best to know the possible consequences beforehand... Employment, marriage, PayTV, etc...

SHOCKED!!!

I was on an EU website the other day ( http://ec.europa.eu/comm/avpolicy/index_en.htm ) and as far as I can see, the "Television Without Frontiers Directive" is up for review in February. As far as I can tell by glancing through a few of the linked pages, a single European TV market is to replace the present national ones. This would effectively end the present situation where TV stations "end" at the border (of which not many are left )

Does anyone have more details or information? All I can make out is that in February the commission is meeting in Berlin to accept the change . . . wouldn't be bad to get Sky across here "legally"

Sounds like a fabulous idea, especially for people living in altbau accommodation with no possibility of Sky dishes but will still retain my Sky for the breadth of choice offered.

I'm sure Grinner and YL6 will be along shortly to advise on what is actually happening.

would be fantastic if I could get it all on cable - I gave up on my dish and sold it after months of impasse with my landlord.

As if by Magic...

Work as usual here...

It wont affect us at all, we will continue to supply anyone who wants Satellite tv..

The current cable system is close to saturation point, so there will be little chance of all the Sky UK, Sky Italia, TFs Canal+, Canal Digital, Cyfra+, Zee, Sonyb4u, Rte, Canaal Digital, Viasat,... Shall I go on?

So, Although they may remove the restrictions as to where the services are sold, legally, they will always only be available via satellite..

@BTC... You could have moved flat instead of playing the "woe is me" card!

G

Would be nice if this potential ruling prompted Sky to use satellites other than the current two to allow us poor fuckers with west facing balconies the opportunity to watch too!

wouldn't it be easier for you to move rather than for Sky to launch new satellites?

I suppose there may be a greater chance that Sky broadcast more just Sky news on the satellites German channels use but I doubt it.

No it wouldn't. I own my place and it would take years to sell. Sky need to buck their ideas up and consider west facing people.

If this went through, I could seriously see Kabal Deutschland begging Sky and others with rights regulated content to be bundeled into their "english" package.

Now this idea I like. Fuck satellite dishes.

Presumably though, future rights packages would cost an awful lot more...in which case perhaps we'd see Sky Germany? Or Sky Europe even.

well, i can see the rights being sold for broadcast in a particular language, which would make English more expensive and Dutch free of charge, rather than the current geographical rights.

Having quickly read the article though, there is no mention of cross boarder broadcast provision. It won't happen as most polititians are completely unaware that there are europeans who live in other european countries and are only there to represent their own national interests. We are a group without lobby.

Who the frig wants Sky? BBC maybe.

just cos you are a lefty trogolodyte doesn't mean the rest of us are, MT.

There's nothin more fun than watching you cough and splutter your tea onto the Daily Torygraph OG!

I packed in watching telly ages ago for the most part anyway.

Sky is a scab product owned by Murdoch who is out to destroy public broadcasting.
I have a twinge of guilt being on MySpace cos he owns it.

Sky Sports is where it's at. Couldn't care less about the rest.

Sky Sports is good but thank god it doesn't have a monopoly on rugby yet. You still need BBC to watch the 6 Nations, Magner's League (BBC2 Wales and S4C) and the EDF Energy Anglo-Welsh Cup.

I do, because German TV is the pits Even Sky isn't as bad as e.g. Pro7 or Sat1 (it's a shame we don't have a smiley for puking . . . )



The BBC is readily available and has been for a couple of years. I believe ITV has also been FTA for a while.

Now this gets on my fucking tits. Another pseudo intellectual fuckwit that is "above TV as used by the great unwashed".

If you have such a super special IQ/Social Life/Career/Sports/Hobbies/Sexlife etc that you don't need TV then just fuck off and don't post in a thread
under TELECOMS and TV>

Fuck off and invent a cure for cancer you muppet.

Too much Celebrity Big Brother for JE I think...

Where have I looked down on people who watch TV? Answer: Nowhere. So do try and break the habit you have of talking out of your arse JE, cheers.

How does the fact that I currently don't watch TV influence where I am allowed to post?
Indeed if it came to pass that BBC programmes were easily available I might start watching now and again.

Who the fuck are you to decide where I can and can't post anyway?

But I assume this is just the sky UK portfolio?

So would not apply to BBC, C4 etc

Does this mean Germany is entering the 1980s. Wow.

Hey Monks Town

You say what you want. Your point is as important as anyone else.

JE Pipe down.

It isn't about GERMANY entering a modern age.
It's about the media business (and that includes the BBC) not being allowed to discriminate within the EU.