Munich salaries vs. cost of living

I hear some info that my company is taking care of my insurance. Or, they pay-up 50% of the insurance amount and I need to pitch in the rest.

What about living expenses. I hear its expensive downtown. Based on my estimates for now, I reckon I would spend about 800-900 or so monthly. Its not a luxurious life but what are the choices..

You may want to ask for an ortzuschlag. I find that this salary will be ok, but not great, and not if you want to invest in your future. It will not be enough if you want a car here, but you do not need one as the public transport is perfect.

Yes, the company pays half of the health insurance and you pay the rest. But we have factored that in when giving you the estimates.

Also realise that you will pay an upfront Kaution of 2-3 times the monthly rent, maybe a provision (non-refunded) of almost the quivalent sum as the kaution and you will probably need to furnish the apartment (even with a kitchen) or you may find a furnished apartment, but expect to pay 300 euro more per month than unfurnished.

YL6 to Kev:
You might also want to check what your relo package includes, as while your salary is adequate there are a lot of startup and additional running costs in a new country. At the very least you need a familiarisation visit of at least a week (flight, hotel and travel expenses included) where a relo or real-estate agent is engaged to show you some potential future homes and familiarise yourself with the city. Make sure that your relocation is paid in full, including shipment of home belongings. If coming from the US many electrical devices won't work here - make sure you get some funding to replace or adapt critical items. Getting a home here is expensive - there are often agents fees (2-3 months rent) and a deposit (another 3 months), plus you may need a kitchen, lighting and some furniture if yours does not suit. If your new home is not ready for you the day you arrive, then there may be additional hotel costs. Make sure your employer gives you a few days relocation leave to move in, and to sort out paperwork with the authorities. Check if things like connection costs for phone or Internet are included or possibly comfort items such as English TV (e.g. satellite) are covered. Taxes here are complicated - especially as you will need to submit to both the German and US authorities - check if there is any support for a tax advisor or accountant. Many employers offer one (or more) paid trips home and sometimes compassionate trips if there is a family emergency - check if yours does, and of course, at the end of your relocation they pay all costs in returning. Finally, if things don't work out, after say 12 months, and you can't get on in German society, have a major fight with your new manager, or the job simply doesn't work out, make sure there is a safety net to get you home with minimum cost to you.

If your employer gives you all the above, then they are an excellent employer - don't expect everything, but maybe some or most things described. For those things you don't get, make yourself aware of the costs from your own pocket.

The bottom line is that it's not simply a case of monthly salary and deductions as an ex-pat...

YL6

Kev to YL6:
Great advice that. Theres a hell lot to consider.

It does bring it up though. It states in my contract that if under any circumstances I happen to terminate the employment within a period of 3 years, I would have to repay my relocation expenses. ( !! ).

Its bad I know, but being single I dont have a lot of luggage per se. So, shouldnt be that big a threat. Its not that I would want to leave. But better safe than sorry.

But all this has gotten me curious. I gotta check the finest of prints on that contract!

Thanks again YL6.

kev to brokenm:
yeah, I am aware of the kaution. I am allowed to get a 'friendly' interest free loan from the company to handle that. I plan to move into a furnished acco though. Considering that, I want to keep my re-location expenses minimal. For a lot of reasons you already read.

YL6 to Kev:
Under some circumstances I can imagine it's not unreasonable for you to pay back your relo expenses if you leave within a certain time. It would be fairer, however to payback a proportion according to your length of time here (e.g. after 2 years then one-third). Check on the circumstances. If you up and leave (get a new job, simply don't like the place) I could understand it, but if your job changes, is not as described, your department is axed, or there are major family issues back home, then re-payment might be considered unfair.

Kev to YL6:
Yes. it does follow a rule based on the time I've spent before I leave. But is this kind of clause common with contracts in Germany? I've olny had one employer before and that one had no takes on this.

Comin back to the sal, it does seem less however goin by what Ulysses says. Its a good call if I can negotiate. I am an ameteur photographer and a painter. Europe gives a lot more reason to travel. I wanna make sure it could be supported.

no worries there. you will earn more than i do & i travel quite a lot for my 30-days paid vacation a year. i also only got 12 months salary.

i wouldn't scoff at €41,500. to make the most of your €€s:
- go with BKK insurance
- don't say you belong to any church when you register (put a big "x")
- don't live in central swabing. public transport is a blessing in munich. i live on the S & U lines SW of downtown & am at Marienplatz in 6 minutes.

when i look at all the things you're suggested to consider, i'm sort of glad I got my job the old-fashioned way.

From the employers point of view I would say it is good business practice to include such a clause. Relocation is expensive. Not just the costs they pay you, but many more that are hidden. I'd say €30-40k would not be unusual, even for a "low end" reocation. It's not unreasonable to protect this investment in case it turns out the employee is simply looking for a free train to Europe to hookup with his new girlfriend, then leaves the company a week after arriving (extreme, I know, but easilly thinkable). Similarly, if you are poached by a European competitor after a year here, why should your original employer bear this cost? At the end of the day, some beancounter will have (should have!) done an analysis of the financial benefit to the company of your 3 year stay here, and factored in these costs. If that stay is cut short through no fault of their own then it's prudent to attempt to recover them.

One other relocation cost you should consider on arrival is the €50 per month payable to Editor Bob for the advice this (his) forum provides, in lieu of the savings you achieve as a result...

Kev to YL6:
Dont deny its existence. I'd put it up if I had a firm and was plannin to have an ex-pat. Just seemed rather new to me considering I've been in the industry just for two years now. It'll sink in. Like so many other things.

But this forum is amazing. Kudos to whoever brought it up. ( Editor bob?! ;-> )

I spend some time now to read the finer prints. Thanks again.

I'll be back.

Toytown strikes again...

@Kevin
To give you an idea of how much a furnished apartment is here are some sponsers of TT which have links. This may give you some negotiating power for your contract or at least give you an idea. But realise that unfurnished you can expect to pay about 60% of what these places charge.

Mr. Lodge

Liz Frey

Home Company Munich

You should also be aware that furnished appartments are not common here, and therefore command a premium price...

Another query, when you refer to your annual income in germany, does that imply the 13th month payscale or the of 12th months? On a 13 scale, now my sal is at 44,850; any change of opinions?

Pes to Kev:

I take it you saw this...?

boom to kev:


if a 13th payment is specifically mentioned (i.e. it is a mandatory payment) then I think the gross salary statement will include that. If its an optional payment (e.g. based on how well the company does), then I should think your gross is based on 12. Thats just my opinion though, it could differ between companies.

boom to base:
I'm leaving work soon so put the kettle on in a few minutes please

YL6 to kev:
Very few people (Germans at least) discuss salary levels. You rarely see salary included in job adverts. If it is discussed, then it's the annual total. Whether it's divided by 12 or 13 is irrelevant. It's a historical thing (some Austrian companies pay 14 months...), partly due to a Christmas tax bonus, partly due to the (minor) savings your employer makes by not paying you 1/13th of your salary until the 11th or 12th month...

YL6

Well mine doesnt necessarily quote an annual income. It quotes a monthly gross and talks about the 13 month payscale, and that adds up to what I quoted. nevertheless I can imagine if salaries and pay scales are not discussed so openly. I feel awkward as hell doing it but you can imagine its completely unknown territory.

topsy to everyone:
so do I! I think I might adopt that, it's cute, innit

topsy to kev:
don't go for furnished accommodation, it's too expensive
there are always folk leaving so you can usually pick up recycled furniture that's almost as good as new for a decent price in the items for sale forum

kev to topsy:
sure is. It somehow also reminds me of talkin into a 2-way radio network. I see its caught on .

kev to kev:
atta my boy.

While that may be true for kevin here, it's not always true. When I was at Max Planck, I had to have private, and I wasn't making squat. The cheap option was €45/month, and the next one up that included dental and pregnancy coverage was €85/month.

topsy to IPJ:

you academic types have special rules, though
for the normal hoi polloi the 45k€ rule applies

YL6 to IPJ:
who were you wanting to talk to ?

Kza. Sorry I didn't specify that in the quote. It was a few pages back. Pardon me, I'm in a different time zone.

kev to intraplanet and topsy:
I confirmed it. I am not elegible for private insurance. The annual gross has to be more than what topsy quotes. Its actually 46 sumthing as per the 2006 update. It does say at a lot of places that its prefect for single guy with no dependants. Missed that bus.

There's something wrong with your signal.

@ IPJ
This is usually only true if you are not paying taxes and have a stipend, this allows an exemption from the state health care plan. Did you have a stipend and not a normal salary that was taxed?

@Everybody
I don't like the Tim to IPJ salutation as it is redundant. It is already obvious who is writing the post, it just needs the person that you are addressing.

Thanks, I was beginning to think that I was the only one.

elf to all:

aren't there some folks out there (i can think of tom17) who have expat private insurance, meaning they went independent of the german insurance schemes. perhaps kevin_cares could go that route? i know there was a thread about it somewhere...

@Elf, You can't take private insurance unless you make above a certain amount, roughly 47,000 p.a. at the moment.

kev to elf:
Havent heard this before. This is new. I however confess that its quite a mess now. Do let me know if you find the post.

Kev to all:
Is it possible that I can get hold of a tax advisor/auditor online? So I can go over my exact parameters and see what it finally ends up with. This would be a lot of help I can imagine.

i know that man. that's not what i meant. but there is expat insurance out there (i think BUPA was one, there are many others). and if you comed armed with something like that, then perhaps you don't have to get the german insurance at all (public or private).

elf to kev: no time to search, friend. give it a try

Yes, and what I'm saying is that even if you have private insurance from back home, like Bupa, you still can't get around the rule that you have to be earning over a certain amount. Its just not accepted. You are forced to get a German state insurance.

Having the expat insurance beforehand makes no difference.

I haven't read the entire thread in all detail, so with the risk of redundancy i'd like to point out that there are several

INTERNATIONAL SALARY CONVERTERS

which help to compare salarys internationally by city - including taxes and cost of living.

I'd take it with a grain of salt, but it's a start.

also practical is the local MONSTER salary comparison questionaire. The Market finds its price, you can read its pulse in the statistics.

Remember -->We 'aint the only ones out there, guys...

Can someone help? Most of the local job sites are in german. Would be a ton of help. Monster shud be a good reference.

kev to almostgerman:
I agree we are not the only one. We a r e the ones.

Sometimes I find the goolge toolbar helpful. Far from perfect, but just sometimes...

right click > translate page into english

I would really push to get over that limit for Private health insurance.. its going to kill you when you are close to that limit...

Having private insurance will save you over a hundred, and maybe close to 200 euros a month, especially if you are young and don't use it. There are a lot of plans out there that give you a refund if you don't use certain things, so if you are sensible it can work out very nicely.

Its a completely backward and stupid system, but if you can get over that 47K amount you'll be paying loads less that those people who earn less than that..

Hutcho - Private insurance may also "kill you" cause you have to pay all the Doctors bills etc 1st and then claim this back.

I think that the whole talk off private vs state insurance v expat insurance is in this case complete nonesense.

Kevin - you will earn after tax (with state insurance and all deductions) around 2000 € per month (I was earning the same in my last job 45k and I'm insured with the DAK).

A flat will cost around around 500 to 700 € - depends on the size but lets say between 50 and 70 qm.

It's not a bad salary - a lot of people earn less a lot earn more but for this you get a wonderfull location, more chances to travel and a better lifestyle than in the UK

Absolute twaddle ! I have private insurance, and I do not have to pay the bills and then claim them back.
Agreed, I do get the bill from the doctors and am responsible for forwarding this to my insurance company. After that I have to do nothing else.

It's not twaddle at all. Some insurance companies do require you to pay the bills and claim it back. For those that offer "no claims bonus" where you get a refund on premiums if there is no claim in a year this can be a good thing, as your refund may be more than some of the smaller amounts you pay in a year, so better to pay them yourself, have a "claim-free" year and get the bonus. However, even those that require manual submission of bills have systems in place to cover larger bills where you simply get prior authority from the insurance company for the doctors/hospital to submit the bill directly.

I found this link on insurances and that explained a few things http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/insurance.html. Private insurance makes up with all the refunds you can get if you dont make any claims and that more than makes up for your adhoc doctor bills and aspirins.

Kev to Garlof:
It did boil down that it made a lot of sense for me to just wing it for now and enjoy what all germany has to offer. 2000 at hand should do good considering i would may be spend about a grand for basic living. So, atleast for now, I decided to take the offer.

Garlof to Kev

Good Idea - you shouldn't regret it especaially with the spring / summer coming up and the world cup.

If you need anymore concrete tips feel free to PM me.

ach so.
f*ckers. i pay 225 yoyo's for my BKK.

Another shooter:
How much would it cost me on an average to furnish a one bedroom house?

Ikea!

agreed. Ikea is the best route to get everything you need all at once. i would guess, if you buy everything new (including kitchen -- see thread on that), minimum of €3,000.
but look to TT. lots of folks leaving sell their stuff here.

boom to kev


nice one. I'm sure you won't regret it

Dear All

I have been offered a job in Munich with annual salary of Euro 40,000 (before tax). I would be staying with my wife.
I would request you to please indicate what would be my approx. in-hand salary per month and if it would be sufficient to live in Munich. I believe there are some tax benefits in Germany for married person.

Regards

Abhishek