Retiring to Germany as a U.S. citizen

I am an American citizen interested in retiring in Germany. I used to be a civil servant in Miami, FL where I currently reside. I traveled to Germany nearly a dozen times over the past six years and would love to spend my retirement years there, it also seems to be easy to get to Italy from there, frankly I prefer colder weather. I am getting both social security and my retirement pension. I am also ex US military but was in Okinawa when I was in the service. I heard of American servicemen living there, I was wondering if I could get a residency permit. I have a regular source of income, and actually found the cost of living to be cheaper than South Florida, I am currently spending a winter holiday in the NRW and I really like it.

I see 20 people have looked at this and none had an answer. Perhaps because they're thinking 'you want to leave S. Florida to retire in Germany?' or just 'huh?'. I grew up in St. Pete and know how you feel, actually, but don't really know the answer to your question. My feeling is that you'll not have many problems getting a residence permit as long as you can prove your independant income.

I am a retired police officer, I got to see the real gritty side of Miami, if any of the readers got to see the things that I saw over my career they would understand why I don't want to live in Miami. I don't think anyone in Germany has seen a dead body after a car bomb went off, have they? Miami is known as the drug gateway of the US.
I thought about Italy but its almost as crime ridden as S. Florida. I value a place where I don't have to sleep with a semiautomatic pistol underneath my pillow.
I remember the story of a NYPD officer, Frank Serpico, who went off to Switzerland because he got sick of New York. That is my sentiment on Miami.

Keep your USAA bank accounts and have everything deposited there. Apply at the German Embassy for the ability to live and work here. Get your healh insurance squared away. Get rid of everything. Take it all to a flea market and sell it all. Then move here and learn German and enjoy your retirement.

Or move to Tennessee and become a Volunteer and Titans fan.

Check into also to see where you decide to move to if a US military base is near by. The bases would hire you in a heartbeat, but you would not get a residence permit through them. It is income though and the residence permit would not be a problem as long as you would have steady income. I know you said you want to retire but a little income would be nice and easier for the permit. Good luck.

Uh, good idea Perdido. The bases also have PXs that sells goods right out of the states.

I already have a pension and social security payments, I know both could be transferred to a foreign account. How much would health insurance set me back? I don't think my health benefits cover any care that is provided outside the US.

Id rather shoot myself in the face than root for the Volunteers.

Seriously, you need to check with your insurance company, if they know what is good for then they will cover you here, as it is cheaper than the states (at least the fraunarzt my wife is seeing is really cheap).

But everthingelse is more expensive. Starting Jan.01 2007 the VAT (Tax) goes to 19%.. Florida still has what 7-8% tax... If you are single,
they also take 48% of your monthly paycheck before you even see it. Bank accounts here are mostly NO INTREST or 1-3% unline the US accounts.

Just about Everything here is 2x more $$ than in the US. Starting Jan.1 its going to get even more expensive. I don't know exactly where you live in FL or
what your lifestyle is like but I'd seriously consider ALL OPTIONS before you even think of coming here to retire..

Frank Serpico has been living quite openly in the Hudson Valley/Catskill Region of New York since at least the early 80s. I guess Switzerland does not have decent maple syrup.

Anyway, I have often thought of retiring to Germany, although that day is still decades away and the Oregon coast is beginning to entice me. My suggestion would be to visit the closest German Consulate and just ask them what would be needed. I read about a couple who retired in France and they even qualified for the national health system there.

It would be a great move and I wish you luck. Report back on what you find out if you can.

Doesn't apply to pension benefits. In any case, marginal income tax rates in Germany are not much higher than the US, as far as I know.


Current money market rates are 3-3.5 %. Just check out Citibank or any of the online banks.

Presumably, US banks offer slightly more, because current US interest-rates are somewhat higher than Euro-rates. So is US inflation. Big deal.


Is it really?

It is not always about the money DK. Honestly. It isn't.

I did not find Germany egregiously expensive. Food and booze were more than reasonable. Some consumer items seemed higher, but how many TVs do you need? Gas/Petrol is dearer, but one does not need to drive as much as some other places.

I also had been living in New York City before coming to Germany and as a result everywhere outside of Scandinavia seems cheaper.

Here's a quick comparsion. US locations were chosen from as close to the OP as possible. (In/Around Miami)

Power (Cost per KWH)
-------------------------
US - Florida Power and Light - 8 US cents or 0.0608 Euro cents
DE - 3600er Paket - 14.91 Euro cents or 0.19 US Cents (Cheapest but might not be avail in all areas)
DE - Watt Ihr Spart 2,0 - 21.69 Eur cents or 0.28 US Cents (Most expensive..Well for my area)

As predicted, price is 1-2x more in DE

Gas (Regular, Per Gal)
-------------------------
Miami / Valero-995 East Hialeah Drive - $2.24 (Cheapest)
Miami / Texaco-NW 167th St & NW 12th Ave - $2.61 (Most Expensive)
DE - Average - $5.29 or 4.02 Eur

Again 2x the price, These are just 2 examples, but I think you get the picture. Anybody want any
more comparsions? Let me know...

Wouldn't matter to me if electricity and petrol was free in the USA. Would still be too expensive.

Hi OldTymer,

Afraid I don't have anything helpful to add, other than seconding the previous suggestion to go the the nearest consulate: home page for German Consulate General in Miami. The address and phone number is on this page.

Anyway, don't let DarkKnight scare you off. Yes, some things are definitely more expensive, and the Dollar/Euro exchange rate is not helpful, but if this is your dream, I think you should pursue it. I moved to Munich 5 years ago, and won't ever leave, if it is up to me. So, hope it works out for you, and if you ever make it around to Munich, post again, and I'll buy you a Mass of Munich's finest - Augustiner Helles. (I love talking with retired cops - my uncle was a homicide detective, and I loved hearing his 'war stories'.)

Good luck!

EDIT: DarkKnight does have something of a point by playing devil's advocate here - it will be good to inform yourself of living costs before making the move, just so you have an idea of if living off your pension and Social Security will cover everything. Search Toytown, and I am sure you will come up with some helpful information.

Strange that such information comes from a US citizen who decided to live and work in Germany though...

Do you mean, why don't I quote the costs for him? If I had that at hand, I would, but since I don't know where in Germany he intends to settle, it would be difficult to say. And of course, I don't know how much he gets from his pension and Social Security. Or did I miss the point of your post? (Quite possible as I am very tired)

Jeebus fuck, DK! Don't you get tired of being so wrong?


That#s just sales tax on almost everything you buy. You left out all the other taxes, like the ABC, the licenses on establishments, the state and Federal income taxes, the lack of health insurance...

For Steuerklasse 6. For normal single workers it's around 40%, including payments intot he social and pensio systems.


Please to be showing me a bank in the US which offers even 3% on a savings account or STFU.


Your electricity comparison -- like damned near everything else you post -- is a load of bullshit. Florida power usage is considerably higher than Germany's (lighting, A/C) and the source is cheaper. Appliances and devices on the German market are also considerably more efficient.

The F-State is a cheap-ass place to live but the cost comparison is about equal, excepting Munich due to real estate/rent and food prices. It's a hell of a lot worse in New York City.

woof.

Miami is not cheap, a one bedroom apartment can cost over 600K + assuming you want to live in area where you won't find crack dealers. I am actually in Germany right now, and found a few apartments, rents aren't too bad, I am going to move to the NRW if I get a residency permit. I am spending a couple of months here, so far have been here for a month and have scanned prices, gasoline and electricity is more expensive. But I have found places that include electricity in my rent.

1. Sales tax is what I was talking about so comapring the FL state sales tax to the VAT is correct as they are both put on All goods bought.
You don't pay"ABC, the licenses on establishments, Federal income taxes,or health insurance." on any Items you buy in the store.
The cheapest State sales tax is NONE (Alaska) the most is 7.25% (California) Still 11.75% less than Germany's 19% (% wise and before USD/Eur conversion)

2. Don't know what country your living in but half of my pay goes to Taxes and other state shit.. and Im SK-1
If I make say 80k a year, and only get around 42-43k in my account after deductions, that looks a lot more than 41% in taxes...
Maybe it will go down in 2007, but I highly doubt it...

3. Here's one at 4.8% Here's one at 5% and Here at 5.26%

4. Now adays most of the Appliances and Electronics sold in EU land are also slightly modified and sold in the US market. Most all new Apps. are energy Efficient.

You still have no clue do you.. Living in Germany Is more expensive. And if your not working and planning to live of your Pension, then you should consider this, and research all aspects of life in Germany before you move here. Thats' the point I'm making. So Now that you've been smacked down (Yet again) go back to tending bar, and STFU...

It was more expensive for me to live and work in Montgomery County, Maryland than it is now living in Munich. And let's not even discuss Crystal City, Virginia rent rates.

Still, it is cheaper to live in Tennessee. Go Vols.

I was planning to live in the NRW which in my opinion is cheaper than Miami, a few staple items I bought from the local Stussgen were cheaper than my supermarket in Miami. I bought a whole loaf of white bread for a Euro, whereas in Miami pay the equivalent of two Euros. A liter of milk was about 35 Euro cents, which makes it under 2 US dollars for a gallon. I found a two bedroom apartment that I could rent long term, fully furnished with heat and electricity included for about 600EUR, my son pays nearly double that for his apartment. Miami is a dangerous city as I mentioned I used to be a cop and saw it all, even talking to local Polizei, they don't have half of the worries I have had, I used to get shot at least once a week. Germany is a fairly low crime country, and that is one thing I like, I hate guns, but kept one under my pillow for a while at home. I know Munich is expensive, but I think the NRW offers better value for money.

@OldTymer
If I were you, I would try to spend six months here to get a real feel for things before making a full commitment to moving here. This maybe cheaper than moving over here completely and going back if you don't like it. I would say this to anyone moving to a place they are not familiar with, whether it's Germany or some tropical island. Speaking of which, the climate here is not really good. Do you want grey skies and precipitation almost all year around? There are a couple of other places in Europe which combine good weather, low crime rates and affordable housing, you know?...

Do you mean shot AT, or shot? If it was the latter then I can quite understand why you would want to leave.

Do what? As opposed to being "shot at" which is kinda fine and he is just being alarmist?

Yes JE. That is exactly what I meant. Of course... Police officers in such cities get SHOT AT regularly, i.e., a bullet goes off and heads in their vague direction. However, getting physically SHOT every week would probably get to the best of us eventually eh?

Blimey. It says a lot about the USA to me if you can be so casual about police officers being shot at.

How often do you think a UK or German police officer gets shot at???

Most will have NEVER faced the wrong end of a gun in their whole 40 year careers.

No it does not. It says a lot about certain parts of the US and certain areas of police work but that is it

And that is probably the case for the majority of police in the US. Again, it depends on what area of police work you are active in

I wouldn't be too sure about that, but it is clear what you mean. and yea, germany is by far much safer than the US (as a broad chacterization). This is not to say that there is no crime... but of course the violent crime rate is much, much lower (thanks to strict gun control laws, one might assume).


very true. and it also has to do with softer issues like emotional support, an active social life, a sense of comfort, a feeling of belonging, and the like. we humans are social creatures after all.

so, OldTymer, these are things that you may want to include in your decision. it can be difficult to build up these social networks, especially when a cultural and language barrier exist. but you are the person in the best position to judge the situation and your ability to develop a social life. or to put it another way: it is better to be running towards a new experience, than to be simply fleeing an old one.


on the costs issue: yes, do the research. you know your purchasing needs more than anyone. but remember to consider the exchange rate risks. the US dollar has gotten weak (relative to historical values) in the past years, and there is a risk that it will continue to slide against the euro. so those retirement funds may not go very far in the future. (of course, no one can predict the future, so it might actually go the other way... who knows, but it is an addtional risk).

and health care should be one of your top concerns. just be carefull here. and it would be wise to make sure that you could get re-insured in the event that you decide to go back to the US after a couple years.

oh, and i find it a bit funny that you've settled on NRW - since some areas there have high crime rates (for germany). for instance, Köln and Düsseldorf can be dodgy. but Bonn seemed to be nice...

on a different thought, if you are looking for a quiet, cold, affordable place to retire, have you thought about Minnissota? I know several people who went there after getting fed-up with the expense and crime in Chicago. just an idea...

best of luck!

I'm not arguing with your not wanting to retire in Southern Florida, OldTymer, but it doesn't follow that you need to leave the US entirely because of the crime rate in one corner of the country.

Living in Germany is no guarantee you won't be a victim of crime, even if the crime rates are lower here and gun ownership is much less common.

Chicago makes some VERY valid points regarding the current and future value of the dollar. Especially if you don't plan on earning money here, all indications are your retirement savings in dollars will buy you about 20% less here.

I think all cops have to start out on patrol and in any major US city, I think the odds of them getting shot at are a lot higher than it never happening to them.
That said, there are a lot of safe places in the US. He might just consider moving out of Miami to some quiet little town.
Oh, and just as an aside, my ex-husband saw the carnage after the car bomb went off at the Oktoberfest entrance years ago. Shit happens here too.

didn't you see the move "A History of Violence", Kat? quiet little towns are havens for violent criminals!

No. I didn't see it. Guess I remain naive.

Well, we did it. We are both American citizens and we decided to retire here.

As both the US and Germany have special rules for retirement income, the high taxes placed on good-sized salaries are irrelevant. We had several hurdles:

one was health insurance--during his employment my husband paid into the public health insurance system, long enough that we were allowed to be in it permanently. But an American over 65 receives Medicare, the US retirement health insurance, and it will not cover beyond the US border. Private health insurance here is extravagantly expensive if you are over 50. If you are a veteran, inquire about US VA hospitals here in Germany and remember that if you have not already signed up for VA benefits, they are now income-based, an innovation from 2003. It may be that if you have insurance from your former employer it will cover here too?

currency changes--our retirement income, most of it American, has lost-what-about 20% of its value compared to the good old days when one dollar about equalled one euro. Owch!!

visa--you will need a permanent visa--ask at the consulate.

As to cost of living comparisons--it is really hard. Compare Munich to California-cheap; compare to Tennessee-expensive. Yet two hours from Munich one can buy a renovated mill house for as little as 60,000 euros (approx. I don't remember the exact price--and the one I read about was historically protected).

Taxes--see an international tax specialist, everyone's tax situation is different.

As to climate--well you have like precipitation, that's all!

Obviously, as we are still here the advantages outweigh all the inconvenient stuff--

one of these days all of us ex-pat retired types should create our own event, drinking a nice Munich beer and relishing our (probably hard-won) state of leisure!!!

I think it would be more productive for OldTymer if we discuss how he can make it work to come here, rather than trying to convince him to settle somewhere else in the States. The guy obviously likes Germany, (hard as that may be for some expats to believe.) Your post is very helpful, Kathleen, btw.

My uncle was a retired cop from Baltimore, which has one of the worst crime rates in the country, who ended up retiring out of the country as well. So I understand OldTymer's desire to escape the US for some sleepy little place in Germany.

I say, do your research, OldTymer, as you obviously are, and don't get too discouraged by the bureaucracy you will inevitably encounter. Germany is a wonderful country, as you already know.

I definitely have the money, in addition to a pension, I got a home that is worth a substantial amount of money, as well as some investments that have done real well. BTW, I switched most of my savings into Euros four years ago, when a Euro bought .85 Euro cents.

Would you be willing to manage my investments?

What's a normal single worker who has only 40% deducted? I lose 48% of my wage as a single person.

True that!!!

Anybody else in tax class 1, single, and only paying 40/41% tax???

depends on whether you consider only taxes, or the whole package of deductions (health insurance, unemployment insurance etc.). I pay less than 20% taxes (I am in Steuerklasse 2), but with all the deductions it sums up to 40%. I guess OT2008 wouldn't have to pay into unemployment and retirement funds?

@DarkKnight...

When I paid german taxes (3 years ago) and was single I paid aprox. 48% in tax/insurance etc. and my German wife reckons 48% aprox of her wages are gone with taxes, insurance etc...She does not earn that much and nor did I in those days as well...

General Point:

Whether some of this stuff is insurance or not...it's basically a tax...since the government can decide to do away with your payments like they did with Harz 4...people pay 30 years so-called unemployment insurance and then all of a sudden what they are entitled to is reduced..and suddenly decide that you have to work longer for your state pension.(in my book that sounds like a tax! - no contract no right of reddress in the courts...!).

Taxes are not a worry, I am not actually going to be working in Germany. I received an email from someone at the German consulate, in order to get a permit, I have to prove that I have money to live on and health insurance. The money part has been taken care of, now its on to health insurance, like I said my health insurance cover in the US does not cover any care from a foreign doctor/hospital.

@OldTymer2008

I think the tax issues was a tagent dicussion. I just wanted to add one point that you maybe should not fixate yourself on crime...I would stick my neck out and say you would be hard pressed to find the worst American Level crime rates anywhere in Europe.

Even, the UK which is the nearest in the crime stats to the US doesn't have the hard edge gangster culture you see in the US (says the Man who has had a few of his family members shot dead!!!).

Also the Statistician in me says using a Country as a category for average crime rates is a little misleading since the variations in crime within a country are as great as the country averages...i.e. Manchester Moss Side vs a village in Devon... Berlin Ghetoe vs Bavarian village...

Just wanted to flag that point...

Anyhow, since you are free and flexible...I think to start some where is the most important but keep in mind the great advice that people have given here...

I don't want this to come out the wrong way, but another expat I met who lives in Koln, seems to knock down Munich as a city. He finds the NRW to be better as far as cost of living in Western Germany.
DarkKnight(Batman fan!! I prefer the Man of Steel) seems to feel things are expensive, since he is in Munich I would not disagree with him. I prefer the NRW, cost of living is much lower and the winter weather isn't as extreme as in Southern Germany.
Speaking of crime, I took the S-Bahn in Koln and it reminded me of subway systems in the Bronx, parts of Koln looked like New York's outer boroughs, I lived in NYC for a while.

Munich is the most expensive city in Germany. Relatively speaking, cost of living is high. But standard of living is also very high. All depends on what you want and what you are coming from. Someone from Dublin would see Munich as very reasonable with a very high standard of living. Someone from elsewhere might see different. It's all relative.

From what people say it is easier to integrate into Koln...people are friendlier..

So it maybe not a bad choice...

Hi OldTymer2008,

As an American who has lived in MUC for 11 years, let me say that although prices are higher here, there are also money-saving aspects to living here:

1 - You may not need a car. Mass transit is good, safe, and reasonably priced if you can afford to travel after 9am. MUC has 576 km of bike paths, so biking is a healthy, free alternative. Our one car often hides in the garage for a week or more ;-)

2 - You may not need air-conditioning. Our home is solidly built, and by using the shades effectively it stays cool indoors despite the heat outdoors.

3 - A city offers numerous cheap or free ways to enjoy yourself, and if you like the outdoors, the possibilities are numerous.

Slow down and learn to enjoy life - in the Spring, sit in the sunshine at an outdoor cafe with a nice cup of tea and a delicious piece of strudel and watch the world go by :-)

(BTW: I know someone from South Florida who just moved back there after many years living here - she now realizes what she gave up. I just visited her and you couldn't pay me enough to live there!)

OldTymer2008, I also forgot to point out that health care in Germany is somewhat "gentler" than the US. Many medications are plant-based or homeopathic, and "old remedies" are still often used. It's not that medicine is primitive, rather that folks here are less medicated that in the US. Whenever my daughter has been ill while visiting the US, the doctors always immediately prescribe antibiotics. They seem surprised when I first request something non-antibiotic. I was shocked to read that roughly one quarter of all American children are on some form of medication!
So I guess what I'm saying is that health costs here have a slightly different focus. Also, the increased exercise from walking/bicycling more helps keep you in shape too :-)

While I´m not in the retirement category, I´d be wary of praising the health care system here in Germany. In my experience, I´ve started to think that it´s not the Health Care Utopia many people would like to believe. It´s basically a 2-class system. If you have private insurance then you get the best care/doctors etc. For public health care I´ve found that it´s a bit of a crap shoot. You may be lucky, then again, you may not be so lucky.