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Iraq Study Group report now released
Independent assessment of the Iraq situation
The Iraq Study Group has now released their much anticipated report - available for download: Iraq Study Group
Thanks, FT.
Over 100 pages. Something to read over the next day or two. I wonder if Bush will read it (if he knows how to read, that is).
Over 100 pages. Something to read over the next day or two. I wonder if Bush will read it (if he knows how to read, that is).
Judging by his very nervous-sounding comments heard on the radio this morning my guess is that he has but it was in talking book form. The narrator was Dan Castanella...
Recommendation 80: Impeach the president of the United States.
Here are some of the specific steps recommended by the panel, according to the New York Times:
QUOTE
Immediately launching a diplomatic offensive “to build an international consensus for stability in Iraq and the region,� including “all of Iraq’s neighbors.�
An effort to engage Iran and Syria “constructively.� It said Iran needed to stem the flow of arms and training to Iraq and respect its territorial integrity, while Syria should act to stem the flow of terrorists, insurgents and money in and out of Iraq.
The Iraqi government should increase the number and quality of its army brigades.
The United States should significantly increase the number of military personnel imbedded with or supporting Iraqi units.
The United States could move most combat troops out of Iraq by early 2008, leaving a smaller force to focus on rapid-reaction, training, equipping, advising, and search-and-rescue operations.
An effort to engage Iran and Syria “constructively.� It said Iran needed to stem the flow of arms and training to Iraq and respect its territorial integrity, while Syria should act to stem the flow of terrorists, insurgents and money in and out of Iraq.
The Iraqi government should increase the number and quality of its army brigades.
The United States should significantly increase the number of military personnel imbedded with or supporting Iraqi units.
The United States could move most combat troops out of Iraq by early 2008, leaving a smaller force to focus on rapid-reaction, training, equipping, advising, and search-and-rescue operations.
QUOTE
Our country must address as best it can Iraq's many problems. The United States has long-term relationships and interests at stake in the Middle East, and needs to stay engaged.
Of course. Oil. That would be James Baker's most prominent thought.
Ohhhh man... From the looks of things this (thread) is gonna be a good one.
I've got €5 on Godwin's Law by post #25.
I've got €5 on Godwin's Law by post #25.
I too have poor opinions of this administration yet i would prefer a comprehensive discussion on the report. No offense sensora.
Edit: Looks like JW wants the boxing ring bell rung. rung? rang? wrung? wrong? whatever
Edit: Looks like JW wants the boxing ring bell rung. rung? rang? wrung? wrong? whatever
No man. I'm interested in exactly the same thing you are: a discussion. Doesn't look like it's on the cards...
Never would have made that connection myself, but only fifteen posts remaining...
Remember 3 post in 20 rule so use wisely. As for me since I have supporters status I can edit and add to this post for another three hours.
Thirteen posts to go - unfortunately I don't have the time to read a hundred or so page report, might start searching for a summarized version just so we can get an intellectual discussion going.
Can one of the Americans on this thread explain to me the significance of this document over and above all the recent events.
I mean will it change anything? or is it just another in a long line of toothless criticisms of the incumbent president?
BTC - you know the answer to that question without being told.
Is there an equivalent report on Tony?
QUOTE (hams @ Dec 6 2006, 6:37 pm) 
BTC - you know the answer to that question without being told.
I sort of did but just wasn't sure what sanctions could be used. Sensoria, rather hopefully, mentioned impeachment - which is why I am asking the question.
as to whether there is a report on Tony: The UK government has taken the view that while troops are still comitted to Iraq it would be unwise to mount a public enquiry. However, in due course there will almost certainly be one - maybe once Tony has stepped down.
In the meantime, nationalist MPs are trying to have Tony impeached, although that is likely to fail.
QUOTE (Bell the cat @ Dec 6 2006, 6:39 pm)
Sensoria, rather hopefully, mentioned impeachment - which is why I am asking the question.
Yes There are only 79 recommendations in the report. I through in Recommendation 80 myself because it sounded good...and wise.
George Bush Snr. and Jeb Bush just read the report.
I haven't read it but what's coming out so far doesn't bring anything new to the table. I think that what it will allow is to possibly bridge the political gap and open up debate so that a consensus on a course of action in Iraq can be built up again - something which hitherto was impossible.
No need. As soon as the going got tough in Iraq Blair was abandoned by those within the party who had supported him up to that point. I feel for the guy on a personal level. The guy is so alone politically it isn't even funny.
QUOTE (Bumpy @ Dec 6 2006, 6:38 pm)
Is there an equivalent report on Tony?
No need. As soon as the going got tough in Iraq Blair was abandoned by those within the party who had supported him up to that point. I feel for the guy on a personal level. The guy is so alone politically it isn't even funny.
And if the report does result in some consenus as to future action which includes the players in the Middle East itself, that can only be a good thing.
QUOTE (Bell the cat @ Dec 6 2006, 6:39 pm)
as to whether there is a report on Tony: The UK government has taken the view that while troops are still comitted to Iraq it would be unwise to mount a public enquiry. However, in due course there will almost certainly be one - maybe once Tony has stepped down.
In the meantime, nationalist MPs are trying to have Tony impeached, although that is likely to fail.
In the meantime, nationalist MPs are trying to have Tony impeached, although that is likely to fail.
Right, so there are still some MPs that would consider such a move playing directly into the hands of Iran, Syria, al Queda, Mukta al Sadr, etc...
so much for recommendation 80...
It make a very important point.
Namely that forcing democracy through in Iraq, is not going to cause peace, stability, and fairness to break out all over the middle East.
Instead bringing fairness to the Israel-Palestine conflict is essential to any progress being made, as most Arabs think the US are towel head hating fascists.
Of course we all knew that already, but its in writing for George to read.
Namely that forcing democracy through in Iraq, is not going to cause peace, stability, and fairness to break out all over the middle East.
Instead bringing fairness to the Israel-Palestine conflict is essential to any progress being made, as most Arabs think the US are towel head hating fascists.
Of course we all knew that already, but its in writing for George to read.
QUOTE (MadAxeMurderer @ Dec 6 2006, 6:49 pm)
Namely that forcing democracy through in Iraq, is not going to cause peace, stability, and fairness to break out all over the middle East.
Realism-Idealism 1-0
In reference to the second part of your post, do you have any idea how much resentment there is that Israel even exists amongst so-called Arab moderates? I think that you need to be as realistic about Israel as you are about Iraq.
Hitler & the Nazis it looks like to me.
It's all yours JW. Spend it well.
It's all yours JW. Spend it well.
QUOTE (MadAxeMurderer @ Dec 6 2006, 6:49 pm)
Instead bringing fairness to the Israel-Palestine conflict is essential to any progress being made, as most Arabs think the US are towel head hating fascists.
Well they must have short memories.
Clinton worked for 9 months trying to sort that out. What did he get? The al-Aqsa Intifada of Sept, 2000. Well before GWB was even elected.
Towel head hating ... * yawn *
Thanks, Keydeck. Just in time. Proves that I'm always right too!
The ISG Report's very bad idea:
More here.
QUOTE
Retired Army Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters, who has written extensively on the Iraq imbroglio, says, embedding U.S. troops in this manner creates "tens of thousands of hostages in uniform."
More here.
The Arabs and the Palestinians aren't saints. And resenting Israel's presence is a waste of energy and international perception.
But apparent heavy handedness in the Israel Palestinian conflict does give further ammunition to those who preach that Islam and the Arab world are under relentless attack from towel head hating fascists
But apparent heavy handedness in the Israel Palestinian conflict does give further ammunition to those who preach that Islam and the Arab world are under relentless attack from towel head hating fascists
Yeah, it also gets some milage at TT.
Edit, not to mention Clinton's rescue of Muslims in Bosnia. Tsunami in Indonesia...
Edit, not to mention Clinton's rescue of Muslims in Bosnia. Tsunami in Indonesia...
QUOTE (Jules Winnfield @ Dec 6 2006, 6:44 pm)
As soon as the going got tough in Iraq Blair was abandoned by those within the party who had supported him up to that point. I feel for the guy on a personal level. The guy is so alone politically it isn't even funny.
You misunderstand him . He enjoys being out on a limb. He's being doing it ever since he took control of the Labour party 12 years ago. His ego won't allow him to understand the reality of his position. This is why he is so often called delusional by commentators on UK politics.
Meanwhile in Afghanistan...
What a lovely picture - it really warms the cockles.
Perferable to this.
Maybe this to be more precise:
QUOTE (Jules Winnfield @ Dec 6 2006, 6:44 pm)
No need. As soon as the going got tough in Iraq Blair was abandoned by those within the party who had supported him up to that point. I feel for the guy on a personal level. The guy is so alone politically it isn't even funny.
That is a bit of an oversimplification. Blair is still supported by a very sizeable minority of the party and also a large number of us have never supported his leadership. It is only a small mutable minority that have abandoned him in much the same way every political leader gets abandoned by fairweather friends when they fuck up.
And fuck up he did - there are those that still support his leadership but condemn his decision to support the Iraq endeavour. Which is why most of the party now agrees that Brown should take the leadership.
Apparently a White House spokesperson has already rejected one of the recommendations, that of having one on one negotiations with Iran, that is while Iran continues to enrich Uranium.
The report has also asked for an end to combat by US soldiers in Iraq, and instead to act only as a support for the Iraqi Defence Forces by early 2008, thus paving the way to withdrawal.
Thus the Americans can leave, but leave the Iraqis on a slide to further chaos.
Job well done with $400 billion spent not to mention the lives lost.
The report has also asked for an end to combat by US soldiers in Iraq, and instead to act only as a support for the Iraqi Defence Forces by early 2008, thus paving the way to withdrawal.
Thus the Americans can leave, but leave the Iraqis on a slide to further chaos.
Job well done with $400 billion spent not to mention the lives lost.
QUOTE (hams @ Dec 6 2006, 7:39 pm)
Maybe this to be more precise:
Terrifying!
It's all a matter of perspective - but that's not something for which you're known.
QUOTE (hams @ Dec 6 2006, 7:32 pm)
What a lovely picture - it really warms the cockles.
Where there are cockles to be warmed, I have the heating appliance. I also heat other areas of the anatomy on request (off topic but I could not resist)
(off topic but I could not resist)
Actually I would have aimed the camera lower. I know what his/her aim was pretty blue sky and all but this is actually a no no in my book. Ooh are those poppies I see ? Headed to the US no doubt nothing but sales sale sales.
This thread might get all argumenty and nasty, and I'm stoned, so I just wanna bring in some peace and love, and mention that cheese is probably one of the most delicious things man. so fucking delicious. I mean, milk, I'm not really a fan, but once its cheese, it's so awesome. At the moment, I'm really into aged bergkase. Its well nice. Little selection of mixed pickles on the side, say some silverskin onions, pickled celery, maybe some beetroot, and if you are a lucky lad, then some delicious piccalilli. Oh, and in a chas n dave styley, don't forget a little bit of cucum, cucum, cucum, little bit of cucumber, OY!
Other food is also super awesome. I want some noodles right now. Some prawn crackers too. Shit, that shit is the serious shit man.
Other food is also super awesome. I want some noodles right now. Some prawn crackers too. Shit, that shit is the serious shit man.
@canaryman
Cheesier and cheesier.
Stick to your software/university thread you retired, Range Rover, swimming pool owning winder upper!
Cheesier and cheesier.
Stick to your software/university thread you retired, Range Rover, swimming pool owning winder upper!
QUOTE (hams @ Dec 6 2006, 8:24 pm)
you retired, Range Rover, swimming pool owning winder upper
Man, are you stoned too? Range rover? Swimming pool? Mind you, I totally want a range rover, they'Re fucking awesome. You can put pigs in the back man. Imagine that shit. Pigs. Totally in your car. Hee hee! That'd be so sweet.
Not today don_riina.
Pigs wouldn't do much good to the interior, but then again I suppose you could always invest in those smelly fur tree things - and if they're boars, they'd feel right at home.
Pigs wouldn't do much good to the interior, but then again I suppose you could always invest in those smelly fur tree things - and if they're boars, they'd feel right at home.
QUOTE (hams @ Dec 6 2006, 8:29 pm)
Pigs wouldn't do much good to the interior, but then again I suppose you could always invest in those smelly fur tree things - and if they're boars they'd feel right at home. huh.gif
really they would?
I was thinking along the lines of roaming in a pine forest snuffling for whatever boars snuffle for, with the lovely smell of pine/fur trees in the air. Surely happy pigs would make for tastier meat?
Boar. Man, boar is so delicious.
I think someone's got the munchies big time.
QUOTE
Surely happy pigs would make for tastier meat?
Unless you hit them with a range rover regarless of smelly airy thing.
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