The official "BIO" stamp

I have seen products with this official "BIO" stamp of approval that my sister has said means it is offically an organic product. Some products however say "BIO" but it's not the official stamp or whatever and therefore not organic - or at least cannot be gauranteed organic.

Have others come across this at all ? Anyone have a website or some background on this that will help me understand how the whole system works in Germany with regards to organic products?

Thank you,
John

damn I hope so, as we spend a lot on our food. Almost all our shopping is done at basic. I think Germany for the most part is o.k., but I have read that a lot of produce coming in from Spain and Italy is falsely marked.

It is all very confusing!

check out label-online.de for an overview of the various bio labels and award criteria. website is in german only.

The "bio" description is government / EU controlled.
Whether some suppliers dodge on that is another thing...

The Bio label is government-controlled. It is, however, voluntary, so organic producers do not have to use it if they don't want to. Those that do obviously have to meet certain criteria.


Das Bio-Siegel (in English)

Well this issue came up in Oregon a few years ago. There were a few dodgy and I mean a few labels out there that claimed to be organic which were not organic. So the goverment stepped and stated everything must be organic (100%) to have the official organic label which was good. Yet the bad thing was there were a few mom and pop organisations that only produced locally( ie..Genisis Juice out of eugene) that could not document everything so they lost the 100% tag. Although they could say they contained organic materials. Maybe the same thing here.

Information in German on 'Bio' and 'Öko' foods and the EU logo and official stamp

apparently the mimimim organic level in germany is 95%. another criteria is the exclusion of GM foods.
http://www.label-online.de/index.php/cat/3/lid/292

Thanks for all the great info. I guess for me the bottom line question is whether this company "BIO" has organic foods? It doesn't carry the official Bio-Siegel on their products that the government certifies.

Which company? Can you provide a link to their website? Or do you mean Tengelmann's 'BioBio' brand?

Your chav shopper MonksTown just bought some BioBio brand stff from PLUS the downmarket stepsister of Tengelmann. Has the german seal on it.

the crucial text is DE-001-Öko-Kontrollstelle for germany or AT-... or UK-... or IT-... or some eu country for the eu organic certification. the bio symbol isn't necessary to ensure eu organic standards.

i think the best brands in general have demeter bio-dynamic or at least bioland certification (quite a bit stricter than the standard eu certification). fresh demeter veggies from a hofladen (farm store) or farmers market are often really excellent.

after hungrily reading the meat thread, i searched and found this short thread on bio products. i have a lot of questions about them, as i see them everywhere (including aldi, more and more) and suspect that there are different grades of "bio" here. i've also heard that the EU bio stamp is more easily earned than an organic label in the U.S. i can't read german yet and so am unable to decipher what it says in this DE labeling info; i have seen the "DE-001-Öko-Kontrollstelle" labeling and for reasons i can't explain or back up i feel better about it than the standard issue bio label. can i, or am i just an idiot? i like to eat organic and local as much as possible, but can't afford to routinely pay 30 euros for a lunchbag full of foodstuffs. if anyone can provide any info in answer to the following, i would be indebted:

1. are the cheaper bio products, such as aldi's bio line and the biobio stuff at plus/tengelmann, totally inferior? are they even really organic? i have a righteous organic-obsessed vegetarian friend from south africa who says all this stuff is crap.

[on this note, i recently bought my fleischsalat (yuck!) addicted bavarian husband a vat of "bio" fleischsalat from aldi. i thought it kind of a joke, though perhaps these sulfite-infested, artificially-colored strips of something-like-meat actually began as an organic-fed pig?]

2. is the produce from italy really as bad as the produce from spain? i always avoid the espana stuff as i've been warned about it, but perhaps i should be avoiding the italian products as well. is stuff from spain or italy that is labeled "bio" more okay? what about germany? my husband says that produce grown in deutschland, bio or not, is superior—and i would prefer to buy a fresh NON-bio head of lettuce over a wilted, picked-a-week-ago organic head, if i may be honest—but is he an idiot himself?

3. is Basic really worth the trek? i have been to the one by the viktualianmarkt a few times. i like the store and appreciate the selection but i did buy some organic beef there that cost a fortune and proved stringy and flavorless. what products do you endorse from Basic?

4. are there other good bio sources (other than little boutique markets, which i do frequent, especially the very nice one here in my community) that i should be aware of?

thx!

Sorry Crayolab, your South African friend is imvho the worst kind of bio/greeny/sandal wearing/yoghurt knitter.
Loves feeling morally self-rightoeous and doesn't actually like the idea that "the plebs" might be able to get organic produce at relatively low prices.

I wouldn't buy any kind of speically grade produce at the VickyMarket.
They've been exposed ripping people before with their "free range" eggs and I've seen them mislabelling goods going through there at 4 in the morning
when they think no one is watching.

> suspect that there are different grades of "bio" here.
No. "Bio" is a legal and heavily controlled term. Inspections are done throughout the chain, all the way back to the farms which submit to full records inspections.

> i've also heard that the EU bio stamp is more easily earned than an organic label in the U.S.
More bullshit. The "organic" label in the US is barely controlled even in the most stringent states like California.

>i feel better about it than the standard issue bio label. can i, or am i just an idiot?
the latter. That's marketing working: looks "more official", you're more trusting.

> 1. are the cheaper bio products, such as aldi's bio line and the biobio stuff at plus/tengelmann, totally inferior?
No.

> are they even really organic?
Yes.

> i have a righteous organic-obsessed vegetarian friend from south africa who says all this stuff is crap.
Your friend is the one full of crap.

> sulfite-infested, artificially-colored strips of something-like-meat actually began as an organic-fed pig?
Sulfites save lives.
Not only was the pig raised to Bio standards, the meat was processed according to same, and all other ingredients are likewise Bio.

> 2. is the produce from italy really as bad as the produce from spain?
Depends where you're getting it and where it's coming from.

> is stuff from spain or italy that is labeled "bio" more okay?
What the fuck is "more okay"? With or without the Bio label, it probably won't kill you.

> my husband says that produce grown in deutschland, bio or not, is superior
He would. And the Portuguese think their home-grown shit is the best. The only people who don't spew that shit are the Dutch because they know what awful, cheap crap meant for budget markets their country produces.

> i would prefer to buy a fresh NON-bio head of lettuce over a wilted, picked-a-week-ago organic head
Wow! Synapses firing! Be prepared to pay a premium but there are a couple stands at the Viktualienmarkt which are run by people who actually grow their own shit, unlike most of the stands which carry most of the same shit you'll find in Hit for a quarter of the price. Look for the words "Aus eigenem Bau".

Never been to Basic.

Look, just because something has a Bio label doesn't automatically make it "better". The world canNOT feed over 6 billion people daily without mass food production techniques. The idea of eating "Bio" foods is a huge and wasteful luxury which comes at the cost of overall production since fields are producing considerably less than they could with intense methods. Chemicals are not bad although the improper and excessive use of them is. None of the quackery espousing organic produce that I've heard has any scientific study to back up any health claims. In some cases I prefer the Bio/organic simply because most tomatoes in stores are hybrids which are used because they grow quickly. Too bad they have no flavour at all. But in most cases you'll never notice the difference between organic and intensely farmed foods, except for certain aromatic vegetables and cuts of meat (no marbling in the quick-to-market stuff).

woof.

this was in response to MonksTown's post: i very much agree. had him to dinner the other night and i know he forks in to everything i serve thinking, is this laden with deadly chemicals? (note, the red onion in the gazpacho was NOT organic.) but as i dump the aldi bio milk into my coffee, i sometimes wonder, is it really? i think the store is doing very well with this brand, but certainly there's a reason why the purists are still doling out for the okologisch brot at hofpfisterie. or maybe they are the fools. i'd just like to know the real deal.

BadDoggie, thanks for setting me straight. i'm not actually the dumbest shopper on the planet, as you suggest, but simply trying to educate myself on this topic. i think other people might wonder about these things too. your consult is appreciated.

The Aldi organic stuff really is organic. As is BioBio at Plus, the stuff at Lidl... just check the links earlier in the thread.

There are a few reasons why some prefer the smaller store:

Some go for some kind of romantic view that the organic store is more right on and doing it for the community, but frankly, unless it is a co-op, that's piffle. That's a "horrible" capitalist business too.

Some find that smaller stores sell local produce. Which would be good, but hang on, do bananas grow in Bavaria? If carbon impact/transportation is of concern to you, check the label, get informed, eat seasonally. Source is less of an issue for organic status, but is still something for consumers to consider.

Others like Hopfisterei bread purely because they like the taste (it is local too, low transport, fresh and seriously nice).

One more thing to add would be service - if you're a person who wants to discuss that cheese before you buy it, go to a place where you may get that service (Bio-Corner branches in Neuhausen for example), the staff in the Discounter just don't have the time or often the information to do so. But if you just want to grab and go, a discounter may be your better option.

It really is up to the individual. Some of my stuff I get in Bio-Corner, some in Plus. The ranges differ, so does the price, but both are still organic.

Germany has a lot of regulated and legalities surrounding labels, especially the BIO label. I would probably believe it as much as you could.

<Sigh>
They are EU regulations so you can't hate "the Herrmanns" for them, read above innit.

Regarding locally produced stuff and carbon footprint I see that chavtastic supermarket chain PLUS have strated to introduce maps
on their own brand non Bio dairy products so you can where it comes from. Milk on sale in Munich comes from around Donauwörth as it happens.

The whole thing about "ooo these string beans are organic! And they're from... Kenya?", well, I'm not a fan.
Those maps are good though - but anyone can check where their milk product is from. The oval EU stamp on the side tells you the production area.

DE = Germany, BY = Bayern then the production plant number (on the yoghurt in front of me from Plus it's 723 = Gropper) and underneath EG for the EU.
Look up your number here.

local and organic are not synonymous, and i don't want to confuse the thread, but as long as we're here—is there such thing as community supported agriculture in munich? would love to find a CSA as a source for produce.

Something like 20% of the surface area of the City of Munich is actually agricultural land.
What I guess you are looking for is a local farmers market or local vege box scheme?

yes, exactly.

We had a a trial of a box scheme a few years ago but I don't know the details any more sorry.

Disagree. EVERYTHING at Aldi is likely to be inferior. The word "bio" has got absolutely nothing atall whatsoever to do with quality atall. You can get "bio" meat here, yet meat grading in Europe (bio or not) is never, I repeat NEVER, based on taste. In the US it's better, but here grading is about other factors, not the important one, taste, which for me is the most indicative of quality.

this link might help you find something (in german)

http://www.naturkost.de/nkl/bay.htm

i'm kind of fed up with high prices for organic, but i'm a firm believer in the benefits. in fact i think modern small scale organic agriculture is one solution to end world hunger, not big industrial monocultures.

i'm trying to cut back on my food waste to save a little money. like right now i figure i'm throwing out about 10% of the food that i buy since it gets rotten before i eat it. the stuff getting rotten before you get a chance to eat it is a problem i'll agree, especially when some of those little farm shops (hofladen) are never open when you need them. i really like some of the hofladen though. i can get completely untreated unpasturized unhomogonized milk for example. my favorit hofladen is not on the naturkost.de sight though for some reason.

There's more box suppliers than I ever thought! Try ökokiste or Lifeguide München's list.

Didn't Showem previously use such a service? EDIT: indeed

Demeter is worth a look as a type of organic produce - it is bio-dynamic, rather than basic organic. All the Öko-Tanten love their gear.

You should try living near Hansastr.

Bullshit. Just because it's cheap doesn't make it bad. For example, Lidl carries one of only five olive oils which got a "Gut" from Stiftung Warentest, and at around half the price of others. The winner was the second-highest priced shit and the most expensive? Dead fucking last. I know a girl in Hessen who worked for a company that packs exclusively for Aldi and Lidl. The testing is fucking rigorous as hell and the quality is heavily controlled. It may not be the best in the world, but it's a safer bet than most of the shit out there.


Which benefits exactly?

Lots of people believe all sorts of stupid shit. We are suffering a grain shortage (brought about by the stupid idea that corn is better suited as an energy source than it is for food). Even the massive, industrial, intensive farming in the States -- where farms can be measured in the hundreds of square miles -- can't keep up. Even with the five year period that any organic farm needs to catch up to the production of a factory farm, the yield per acre is, at best, 10% lower. Not higher, lower.

The farms are huge because that makes them more efficient. Look at the borders here between each plot or crop. That's wasted space that large-scale farming doesn't have to deal with, another 2-5% loss. The mythological ideal of what a farm "should be" has nothing to do with the reality of what one actually is. Go to one some time. Work on one for a week. Domestic price pressures alone make small-scale farming almost impossible to continue.

woof.

i'm trying to cut back on my food waste to save a little money. like right now i figure i'm throwing out about 10% of the food that i buy since it gets rotten before i eat it. the stuff getting rotten before you get a chance to eat it is a problem i'll agree, especially when some of those little farm shops (hofladen) are never open when you need them. i really like some of the hofladen though. i can get completely untreated unpasturized unhomogonized milk for example. my favorit hofladen is not on the naturkost.de sight though for some reason.

Stiftung fucking warentest? The guys that give Medion/Tevion products a nice big spanking "gut" all the time?
Quoting that bullshit is like backing up an opinion with a quote from wiki...or a bloke down the pub.

Go to Aldi, buy some "bio" mozzarella, and tell me you can taste something. Go on, try. See if it has any taste atall.

sorry but i haven't figured out this quote thing yet.

it's true that something being bio or organic says nothing about its quality, and it's definitely not the only issue to think about. there are lots of factors to consider when buying food: taste, price, convenience, organicness, freshness, on and on. i try to think about all of these things and make the best choices.

i used to buy many of my groceries in new york at whole foods, until an upstate organic farmer i'm friendly with told me that he stopped selling to WF because what they paid him for his vegetables basically covered the cost of the box. now, whenever i can i buy directly from the farmer. it's fresher that way, too, and i don't feel so bad about forking over a little more knowing that my cash will pay for some clothing or schooling or something for the kid tucked under his arm (or to fix his truck, or whatever). it's all a learning process, you make the best choices you can and at the end of the week, good point! hopefully you don't throw half of the stuff away. mostly you need to feel good about what you're eating—and if you feel good about fleischsalat from aldi, my dear, by all means eat up.

as for EVERYTHING at aldi being inferior, i know i was the first to bring up the A word, but i would definitely argue that there's some good stuff there to be grabbed and have thrown at you at check out! the (non-bio) mini ice cream bars rock! and my life would be a notably less-happier one without their heavily sugared, not organic kirch-pfirsich-maracuja jam, yum.

And here's a different topic I started on it.

AS long as the bloke down the pub isn't a shandy-drinker, whassamatta?

> Go to Aldi, buy some "bio" mozzarella, and tell me you can taste something. Go on, try. See if it has any taste atall.
More taste than the Galbani and A&P-brand shit that most people buy. In comparison to Galbani, Lidl's mozzarella is good. The Bio shit has flavour and while not as fine as a good handmade buffalo mozzarella, it's also not €20+/kg. Again, Test (and kochmesser) have tested the mozzarellas. Only 9/24 got "Gut", a rating whcih included points for flavour and texture as well as bacteria counts and price. Guess who's in the top. And guess where the most expensive of all the cheeses landed. Can you say, "Mangelhaft"? I thought you could.

woof.

I rather buy locally grown non-organic fruit & veg than organic stuff flown in from God knows where. Food miles and so on...

bad doggie

ok here's an article with some views i share (the gmo part too but ignore that for now).

http://www.keepmainefree.org/myth6.html

i've worked on two organic farms and of course i've seen big non organic farms too. i see what you mean. ok.

maybe if rainfall and temeprature patterns don't change too much in places like the e.u. or usa, we'll still be able to feed ourselves with plenty to spare, whether we use modern organic or modern conventional farming methods. countries at the bottom of the human development index that have lots of starving people might improve their well being more if they had better people in power, giving kids a chance to stay in school and people to live in peace. maybe more than whatever farming methods they apply.

basically what it boils down to for me is my wife had horrible skin allergies. she tried lots of medications. she tried changing her diet cutting certain types of food, all to no avail. then we tried organic food as a last ditch effort. now she can eat pretty much whatever she wants, as long as its mostly organic and no more medication either. her allergies all gone and her overall health, way better. sure it might be a placebo, i don't know. but i feel good too, so i'll stick with it and believe that pesticides are harming us and the environment.

Woof woof indeed.

Some good posts Mr Doggie.

As usual our deasr Katrina steps in and proves TT is not all angry shouting. If we ever have a "TTer/in of the month" for whatever reason I nominate her, simply for being wondefullly helpful and sensible.

Capitalist business our Tante Emma Laden? To be honest I'd agree with that. Nice service but out to make money too. In ours there's a piece of paper over the lemons detailing the chemicals on them.´Thus my lemons come from Aldi.

And why of why do TTers continually moan about German bread when there is excellent bread as Katrina says, in 'Pfister. We buy there when we can too.

I had a leaflet from the Feinkost on how Bio is Bio? And my wife read it rhough and told me clearly aldi food is definitely bio. I do indeed buy bio stuff there. Given how horribly dominated Britain's food is now by agribusinesss commercial interests I'd trust German standards over our own. American standards...no comment.

Oh and today we ate fresh peas from zero food miles...my own veg garden!


Gropper? I always found that a funny sounding milk name in a sniggery way.

Thank you *blush*

Peas? Oh I can clear a pea crop in minutes straight from the vine, from the pod, into the belly. Pure childhood memories and little is tastier.
And that I'm in Scotland from July 12th means I get there for pea season - bliss!

Growing-your-own can be a lot easier than people think, used to always grow my own spuds at university, tomatoes are easy too, both are doable on a balcony using a bucket. Has always surprised me how few people try that here, allotments are popular, but alas the spud bucket.

PS Gropper always makes me laugh too.

tried it. Slugs got it all, despite beer traps which were full every morning. Now I'm in a building where I can't even try to set up a garden and I have no balcony, so it's the EVIL CORPORATE veg or WAY OVERPRICED Vikki-Markt stuff. Say la vee.

woof.

I have thireteen tomato plants growing on my terrace which is south facing. I tasted one last weekend - one inch of intense flavour. We have peas, sweetcorn, beans, giant pumpkin, leeks, onions, parsley among others stuff like brassicas which I dont think are going to come thanks to our slimy friends.

I also have a grape bush which is growing like a weed and is full of grapes. I intend to train it over my pergola and maybe next year I'lll get enbough grapoes to make wine!

Our apples are dropping a lot at the moment.

Agreed. I worked for a large German condiment producer and we sold many of the exact same products at Aldi as at other stores only under a different label and significantly cheaper. They were a difficult account as their standards are very high.

actually, the EU regulations fall short of many German standards that are additional. Germans are very protective of their "bio" labeling

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For only producers and manufacturers who comply with the provisions of the EU Organic Farming Regulation and subject themselves to the mandatory inspections may sell their products as organic or eco goods and label them accordingly with the Bio-Siegel.
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Link on Post # 5.

If you want it 100% organic
look for Bioland, Demeter or Naturland certifications.