Employer Racism in Munich

Hello everyone,

I am wondering if anyone could help me out to figure out how people in Germany think! I am moving to Munich in two weeks and I am applying for jobs over the Internet! I've found lots of adds which clearly specify " looking for someone E.U Passport etc...", my question is: Is an add like this could be considered racist?

Because if the problem is VISA OR WORK PERMITION it is clear that if you are applying for a full time position you suppose to have the visa or papers required!

If that happens in back in the U.S someone who puts an add like this would be in court. I know lots of people in this country who does not have a E.U passport but like me the Alfenhaltstitel and do not want to became Europeans!
I am a bit dissapointed with that as I am sure that I did not get a job just cause I do not have an E.U passport!

Does anyone knows any place which I could complain in case I fell it is racism?

Thanks

No. It isn't racist. Annoying , slightly discriminatory etc etc etc Yes, but not racist.

Employing a non-EU Citizen means that the employer has to go throguh a fair ammount of bureaucracy to prove they NEED the non-EU employee as they cannot find a "local" to do the job and although this is able to be done obviously those that specify "EU Passport" don't want to.

Same in (say) the US, they would prefer to employ a US Citizen or someone already holding a "Green Card" to cut back the red tape.

But good luck job hunting and hope you'll be over here soon.

Not racism. They ask for photos, marital status, and other questions they wouldn't get away with in the States as well...it's a different world outside the US.

I have a Polish friend who says that the government can intervene if parents try to name their children something that isn't 'Polish sounding' enough...lots of stuff like that out here...but in reality, it isn't all that different from the experience a person would have trying to get work and settle in the US from outside of that system...just a matter of adjusting to it.

Have to get used to that...and the fact is, if you've a saleable skill, once you get the attention of a prospective employer, it's not too tough for them to get around the rules that grtho mentioned, i.e.--the employer is legally required to prove that they need to hire someone from outside the E.U. Thing is, you have to sell yourself to the employer first...and it can be tough getting your foot in the door. Language skills are one good in...and of course, you can always apply for jobs that specifically require a person with English as their mother tongue (I tutor English, and sometimes sit for English speaking kids...both of which rather demand a fair level of English). There are ways in, but no, you haven't a case against someone who doesn't hire you for this reason...even if it is the ONLY reason.

ALFENHALTSTITEL WORSE THAN...

Let me stop here...was gonna say something really bad now! I know how immigrations laws works! My hole F**king entire life I have been a survivor and going around the burocracy!

In my opinion an Employer mentioning that employ only a E.U citizen is Racism! What the F******ck I got this Alfenhaltstitel then??? Imagine happening that in London, there are more than 300 languages in London, there are more than 87 nationalities in Harrods and that goes on...

The problem is the mentality of this people. Too stuck up in my opinion!

Das ist das leben! Thanks for all the replies!!!

Some people see racism under every bed.

Perhaps if you ring them up you will find that they actually don't care that you don't have an EU passport, as long as you have an "unbefristet" residence and work permit. Maybe they just worded it badly and meant that they don't want the bother of having to try to get a work permit for an new immigrant. On the other hand, I saw a few military related job ads, where it seemed reasonable that they require EU or German nationality and not just residence.

I will agree, however, that if the above is not the case, it does seem to be a form of discrimination. But even then racism is perhaps too a strong a word. Would you call it racism if a company decides to keep operations in the US, rather than outsourcing to India, because the boss happens to believe in keeping jobs in America? Some would call this loyal and patriotic.

Ok... I know I shouldn't be feeding the trolls...

Racism refers to differential treatment based on "race" - initially a way to separate people into different races (an African race, a Jewish race, an Asian race) - though now it is commonly distorted to mean whites versus blacks versus asians versus latinos, etc...

The closest thing I can see what you are describing is Nationalism or Regionalism, but even there you fall into the all too common trap of seeing something that affects you negatively as being a systemic attack "against non EU citizens".

Having been involved in the hiring process both in the US as well as in Germany, there are many factors that dictate who can be hired. For example, the EPO and EADS in Europe are funded as EU institutions and part of their funding mandate states that only EU citizens may work there (making sure the money and intellectual property stays amongst EU citizens). This is the same when looking into Government positions in the states - non citizens cannot get hired into certain positions.

In Germany, if you want to hire an Auslander, as grtho mentioned, there is a good amount of paperwork that needs to be filed which proves why you are hiring a Foreigner instead of a Citizen or EU Citizen. Plus, if you hire too many Auslanders, your firm could be subjected to an overall audit which is expensive and costly.

Your prospective employer probably falls into one of these three categories: can't hire an Auslander, doesn't have enough staff to support the filing for an Auslander, or has too many Auslanders and has been threatened by an Arbeitsamt audit.

Then again, he or she could just only want to hire citizens, which in Europe is by the most part fully legal. Don't like it? Don't come over here.

My 0.02 Euros.

Hang on a second! Racist? What about the difficulty in obtaining permission to work in the States?

it's not racism, as others have pointed out, it's practicality on behalf of the employer...

you don't like the system? then don't come and join it...

An Aufenthaltserlaubnis ("Alfenthaltstitel") is a residency permit. You need a working permit to work in Germany too. If you don't have one of those, then your papers don't suffice. I think the American equivalent to a work permit for foreigners is the Green Card.
I'm afraid if you want to move to a different country, you'll have to be more open-minded and relaxed. Things are different, not worse or better, just different.

When I moved to Germany 9 years ago from UK I started teaching English in a number of large companies and noticed that all senior positions and most middle management jobs are occupied by white men. Almost all the female employees were working as secretaries or receptionists and the only black people around were working as cleaners. It was, to me at the time, very noticeable.

I have also become aware of the absence of any equal opportunities statements in job ad.s and as as far as I can tell Germany is way behind on this issue (compared to UK).

Does this represent instituional discrimination/racism or is it just another example of how old fashioned this country is ?

That is probably true for the German Mittelstand where most foreigners do not want to work anyway. So its more a matter of people not applying to them rather than them being selective (for lack of a better word). Most of the multi-national companies that I have seen have a fair number of women / non-white people in seniorish management positions. We also have a fair number of women as senior management in this organisation. In fact one of the smartest people I have met im my career (10 years and counting) was the managing director of a German Fragrance Company.

how the can it be classed as 'racist'?

show me a specimen the european race and i'll give you a biscuit.


we are NOT in the US.
sooner people realise this the better for the whole world

it is a classic form of discrimination, however i doubt anyone has tried pushing this. if you include a bad picture, it doesn't matter how good you are, your picture could influence you not getting the job. so since we are all voluntarily in germany, then we have to play by the rules. at leat some of them.

incidentally, i do include a photo, but on my last job applications i left off my birth date and marital status. i still got 3 interviews and two offers and i am smack-dab in the middle of child-bearing age. unfortunately there is no way around that except maybe to write "i am infertile". i applied for a job occuped by a woman who was in maternity leave. maybe i should of said i am lesbian and have no interest in kids. mmph. then i would of been at o2 too. ha.

> absence of any equal opportunities statements

That is not true, nearly ALL the job ads from government affiliated organisations (like universities, local administration etc) clearly say that applications of handicapped people and females are encouraged and will get prefered treatment, and often they say that the job position could also be converted into two part time jobs.

And even if it was true, why shouldn't the employers be able to hire the person they want for the job? Why prefer someone who might not be fully qualified to do the work (but can be used to fill some bullshit quotas) over someone who definitely is qualified?

Down with reverse discrimination. Every medium sized business needs to have a Frauenbeauftrage. I haven't seen a Maennerbeauftragter yet.

isn't this called positive discrimination?
where single healthy white anglo-saxon protestant males have to join the back of the queue?

Well, when we see a company that employs over 50% men but only has 2 men in the top 100 management positions, then perhaps we can worry about it. A major book publishing company in Germany falls into this category, but of course with women as the miniscule numbers in top management.

Uhhh, as far as I know (and I may be wrong) this does happen in London ... to US citizians for example. I don't know the exact specifics, but I do know that getting your work permit is very difficult, and if it runs out you get asked to leave the country. I've even heard of accounts of US students going to school there and being asked to buy their plane tickets home months in advance so as to be sure they don't stay. Same with France it's very difficult for employers to employ you don't have a work permit, same with Austria.

That has nothing to do with discrimination or racism, it's just the way the world works, and most of the world is like that.

very true, had the same experience when working in Japan. You have to go through a lot of trouble to officaly get the necesarry working permits. It has nothing to do with rasicm, it's just protecting the local labour market, and to make sure no brain drain occurs over the years.

Numbers are numbers you can not deny that:

ETNIC GROUPS IN GERMANY:

Germans 95,1%
Turcs 2,3%
Italians 0,7%
Grecs 0,4%
Polish 0,4%
Others 1,1 % (That includes ME!!!)


Unfortunatly this is not the U.S, that is true, what happens in Germany is if you are not Turkish to get an equal job oportunity to work in a Doner Restaurant or if you are not willing to work in the asparagus farm you are the MINOROTY! And as anywhere else if you are the minoroty, you are always excluded!

You are all correct. This IS how the world works, its like this in every country. But there is STILL an amount of racism involved.

It IS easier for me as a New Zealander, or other (predominantly) white populations such as Americans, Aussies, Canadians etc to work in the EU, than a Nigerian, Chinese, Syrian, Bangladeshi ... Basically anyone whos not white. Different countries have different agreements etc, and it correlates strongly with the skin color of the respective countries populations.

I repeat, it Is how the world works, and staying at home is a partially valid suggestion for someone who isnt comfortable with the racist aspects of western immigration policy, but its still responsible to complain about it, in my opinion anyway.

I dream of a totally fluid and open immigration system, where anyone in the world can work anywhere they want, and legislated discrimination in favor of certain countries, or even citizens of the host country itself, is not present.

Such a system would go a long way toward freeing up inequality in wages, prices, and oppourtunities in the world, but of course the cozy rich west has a lot to lose from global equality...

EDIT: So to clarify, I think there is racism in the system, but not on the part of employers, I think most western employers would be glad to employ hoards of african refugees at minimum wage for example. The racism lies with the protectionist governmental system of work permits that result in favoring people of certain skin color over others, and favoring their own citizens above all. But I understand it though, countries tend to look after their own at the expense of citizens of other countries.. Fair enough I guess... Unless you believe in global justice.

@thecrow260 - nonsense, if you're equally qualified you won't be excluded. In some countries for example Holland, don't know for sure about Germany, its even law that companies should employ a certain percentage of minorities.

There is however a difference between getting work permits from the government and you're chances in applying for a job when you have all the work permits. In the former case there simply are a lot of restrictions for foreigners to protect the local economy where in the latter case it's prohibited by law the employers can make a difference on the basis of nationality. If they do then I guess you could call it racism.

@Kza - Imho it's not related to skin color. It simply economicaly more benificial to have a bilateral labor agreement between New Zealand and the EU than to have one between the EU and Nigeria. True, there migth be rasicm involved on a person to person basis but not if it comes to bilateral agreements

I happen to think the passports and borders and immigration law is all bollocks and inherently racist and should be abolished anyway.

But back in the real world till the Revolution comes:

Most ethnic Turks in Germany are NOT German or other EU Citizens but most DO have, through birth or long residence, residency and work permits in Germany.

If an employer says or somehows gets through "I won't employ ethnic Turks", that is racist and boy, does it happen!

However, discounting the government jobs that are ONLY for EU Citizens, what it boils down to here is that these prospective employers can't be bothered to do the paperwork. Once you DO have a residence permit you can say:

"I'm not an EU Citizen but I DO have the paperwork" and bingo, they will save hassles and more likely to employ you.

I do doubt the figures slightly, 10% of the population of Germany are non-Citizens and that is the only method by which the government collects data, based on citizenship.

I am new to this Forum

But what Is it that when ever something goes wrong everyone complains about

Colour,size,nationality,the motion of the moon,why the cow jump of the moon.

Instead of complaining just get off your ar$e and try again. complaining about it does no good and only proves how many complainers and not enough people who want to get on in life there are!!!.

Hmmm...

What's about to get a job in the staates ??? How difficult is that?
A Greencard you get from the Lottery if you get one... the same like 'to be or not to be'!

H1-B-Visum you can stay 6 years in the staates when you get the green light from
Ministry of Labor and paid $600.

H2-B-Visum (for lower standard jobs) yo can stay 1-3 years but usually 9 month
and the company has to explain why they wanna take a foreigner instead of a U.S. Citizen. BTW, that's for free...

Perfect answer

Congratulations to everyone! Unfortunatly I am not in Germany voluntarily but because I have to!
I had a friend in London, she was in a travelling in a U.S Passport. Aplyied and got straight a one year working Visa. Try to do the same in the Auslander Buro to see what you are going to get...

Only people I know who have to be here are in prison.

Suckered...

Crow, I was gulled into thinking that you wanted practical advice...apparently, what you really wanted was to complain. The US and Australia (the other two nations I've lived in) have similar restrictions...you're just finding yourself on the receiving end this time.

I don't know your race, I don't know your nationality...but...assuming you are American, chalk this one up to the learning process. Step back to your second post and put these words into your heart


Words to live by. Sure, one day, I'm certain the human race will evolve to the point where a system of exclusion based on the illusion of the nation-state will no longer be necessary (rolls his idealistic eyes at himself)--until then, we all gotta deal. The only way out? Resign yourself to sticking to the nation you were born in, where you get all the benefits and disadvantages of a native citizen.

All's I can say is, frustrations and all, it's probably better to engage the system, instead of holing yourself up somewhere where all the benefits land in your lap due to the happy coincidence of having been born there. There's not a nation in the world that doesn't have these sorts of restrictions. If you're wanting to blow off some steam, say so. If you want practical advice, listen to it when it's given to you, and apply it to your own case.

It's not racism. It's the nature of the economic beast in this world we live in. Believe me, I've difficulties with that myself...but...nobody's offering to change it for me, either.

OK...done being duped. Best of luck in your hunt. p_g

can you please run that by again?
i don't understand your point.

I got a job with a fairly large multinational company shortly after I came here on working holiday visa from Australia. I immediately received a 5 year visa from the KVR. What's so difficult? It worked for me...

Everyone else on this board has somehow managed to stay in Germany. They either have an EU passport, or they come from non-EU countries and managed to get work and work-permits, resident permits, etc. If we can do it, then so can you.

Oh and if you have an 'unbefristet aufenthaltserlaubnis', then you essentially have the same rights as a German. Call the companies advertising and tell them that. I think all they want to do is avoid the hassle of employing someone who needs a work visa

does anyone think the human race will have larger heads in the future and smaller bodies but with larger sexual organs?

not quite...

marry a native and take on German citizenship.

live in Germany as a foreign national or marry a German and become one.

you can chose which is the lesser of two evils

or in the case of turning up in the United Kingdom...

where you get all the benefits to the disadvantage of a native citizen.

Hey Denis and Bod from the states ...

Stop complaining your entiitled to a working visa in Germany ...In fact as my fellow european friends say its much easier to get a working visa in Germany and in the european union as a whole than it is your banana republic !!!

Simple dude marry a German ...There is a enough bunny boliers here in Germany and munich who will marry you ...if not then you know where Munich airport is ...

Cheers me dears
German Marriage authority for poor americans who cannot find a job in Germany

Finally someone that write's what eveyone else thinks

for all the europeans welcome to europe, for all other's welcome to the jungle

Believe me Dude your fully right what you say welcome to the Jungle for all yankees...

And believe me if rash arse bush gets elected then you guys are going to get eaten in this beautiful european jungle of ours

from the assocation of eating americans alive

Jumpin Jack Flash...

Could not agree more - You are writting words of wisdom there my friend.

It is about time that Europe wised up about this whole thing and made it a little harder for other non EU nations to get Visas to work here - WHY?

Because everyone else does it US, Australia, NZ etc. and it makes sense.

Look after your own before looking after others...

The words of a genius

Do unto others as they will have done to you

Total non sequitur:

Lots of 3 part names on this thread.

There are a lot of moderators about today

While in London between 14-19 july, during one evening i was watching the BBC documentary of Secret Agent of the British National Party and I am not sure how many of you have seen it. I would strongly define that as racism and not for this Main Topic. The BNP regard all asians as pests and that some of it's member would love to live within the building overlooking (especially in Bradford & Heighly ) so that they will be able to aim their rocket launcher at the parkistani & muslim residence in that region!

I was told by my partner that it is true that it involve alot of paper work for hiring a foreigner working in Germany (Information technology post should be much easier for working here) I wanted to hire a couple of asians direct from asia but after realising the difficulties i gave up! Besides form filling etc, most importantly you will have to EXPLAIN as an employer what is the Main reason you need to hire auslander rather than Germans (which could provide employment for the locals).

I have never like Heathrow international airport (Not because of it's service) but being a non-white nation i often have trouble getting cross the custom despite that i was born in a Commonweath country (Singapore) Most of my trip to London, i choose to fly Gatwick and have realised that the custom officers are much more friendly and professional. (sadly the last week trip in Gatwick, i was asked if i do hold a working permit in EU and was asked several non related questions ...(Strangely those troublesome custom officers are all ladies ... well my english friends told me that it is none of her fxxking business since i am already a residence in Germany. (Most of the time in Gatwick when they see that residence visa, they do not ask much questions! )

As for the USA, i could recalled it was a few years ago & was before the 911. I was on my way from munich airport to New york together with my partner. There were two american ladies one caucasian & one african american each asking me four times while within the Boarding gates WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN AMERICA!!! It is quite sad as i have been to the states several times and they did not bother to have a look at my passport. At last i told that that i have $$$$ to spend in Saks fifth avenue and i want to do lots of shopping in NYC and if that they do not welcome Singaporeans, i will be more than happy to tell the Singapore press (both of them changed their attitude and became friendly).

I love visiting USA but i believe anyone would get pissed off if you are treated like this prior boarding the plane ( i was the only person being questioned the rest are caucasians and not a question asked. (I wonder if this consider as a racism act?)

well you are showem there dude..

Welcome to the thread

And they all seem to be in full agreement with each other...which is nice.

Reading this thread is like watching people on hash play pong Very amusing. Cheers

Keydeck,

Are we not all allowed to agree with one another on this forum then?

Sorry, I though it was an open discussion and we could have the same opinions from time to time... silly me.

Jumpin Jack Flash I no longer agree that the EU should try to keep it's jobs for EU citizens - I now think, because I have to disgaree thanks to Keydeck that all jobs should be given to foreign workers and we Europeans should go down the Haupt Bahnhof and busk for our money... or steal from all the rich foreigners...

Do you agree with this KeyDeck (Sorry of course you don't)

To be fair... i will include one more about the Munich custom.

Last year when my mum happened to visit me in Munich and while flying back i met a very nice german star alliance officer (Terminal 2) upon check in. He offered that i am able to send my mother off (within the boarding gate) since my mum can't speak english nor german. So i told him that i did not bring my passport with me as i did not expect this is possible. I was given a temporary pass for the passing through of the custom and it was no problem.

After sending my mum off, i approached the passport control and was ready to get out but i was stopped by a lady officer who was so pissed off as i do not have a passport with me! SHe said no passport no in & out despite i showed her my temp pass It was clear that she was just few minutes away from her end of shift . After few minutes of debating, a nice German guy just requested for my ID and was back within a minute after checking in his office.

Since then i do not have any problem when entering Munich from overseas and i was oftened asked by those passport officers SO DID YOU ENJOY YOUR FLIGHT?

Touchy aren't ya? I was just joking...that's also allowed.

This is great

Its just like being in a comedy sketch:-))

> Hmmm...
> What's about to get a job in the staates ??? How difficult is that?

Very. You cannot simply fly over the big pond, cross the border, start looking for a job and stay in the country until your paperwork arrives.

If you try that you will be given the boot. Hard and deep. Wecome to the immigration fraud database, you won't be able to get into the country again for the next 20 years without having to apply for a visa everytime, which is likely to be denied. You cannot even go there as a tourist anymore. Even when you applied for a visa and were given one the immigrations officer at the port of entry in the US can simply send you back home without having to give any reasons. YOU pay the next flight back, even if the only one available is first class.
That's when your problems start, once you were denied entry. You are risking to spend a few weeks in detention without any contact to the outside world every time you try to enter the US. This btw has happened to foreign spouses of US citizens and their children, and people who have lived in the US for years.

> A Greencard you get from the Lottery if you get one... the same like 'to be or not to be'!

You don't get a greencard from the lottery. You get an interview appointment at the embassy where they take your fingerprints and legal history and violate your privacy. There is no guarantee whatsoever that you will be accepted, you haven't even entered the country yet!
Ever smoked pot when you were 17? Ever been arrested? Lost your DL? Committed a felony according to the definition of the US? You're fucked, and cannot even enter the US to visit friends, spend shitloads of money, attend funerals, get medical treatment.

what about your last summer vacation in the US, when the airline on your way back home forgot to report you leaving the country to the US authorities and left that small little piece of paper in your passport? What do you think will happen when you show up 3 years later, and in their database you are registered as not having left the country after entry on a tourist visa? You think they will shrug their shoulders and wish you a nice stay? No fucking way! You're in deep doodoo, and have to prove somehow that you indeed left the country and didn't overstay! That you cannot do that any faster than they need to fill out the deportation paperwork is bad luck. Sucks to be you!
In the future you will not be able to fly to South America anymore if you have to change planes on US soil. From now on it's either direct flights or pit stops in Havanna, Canada or Mexico.

> H1-B-Visum you can stay 6 years in the staates when you get the green light from
> Ministry of Labor and paid $600.

And when your employer fires you and you don't find another one willing to go through all the bullshit and hire you immediately, bye honey! Enjoy your flight!
And don't you dare trying to extend your stay once those 6 years are over.

> H2-B-Visum (for lower standard jobs) yo can stay 1-3 years but usually 9 month
> and the company has to explain why they wanna take a foreigner instead of a U.S.
> Citizen. BTW, that's for free...

Yeah right. Lawyers work for free. And so do the people involved in processing your papers.
Again, once the time is over, t'was nice knowing you, bye! Next one please!

Once you have applied for a residence and work permit you cannot simply leave the country, e.g. to travel back home in an emergency. You have to ask and beg and wait for approval. Leave anyway and you are an immigration law violator. If you're lucky they let you apply for another re-entry visa and you may start your application process all over. From abroad of course. How you survive while all your property and your job are in the US is your problem, not theirs.

Do you people have an idea how many Europeans and others are deported from the US each year? Or denied entry?
How many 'mericans are being kicked out of the EU? How many US citizens do NOT manage to get a residence permit, somehow? How many US citizens completely fail in getting a work permit, even when they try real hard for a year?

Even when you have a greencard, are married to an American citizen, have US born children and lived there for 20 years: you may be deported.That's legal, and it happens.

All in the name of Homeland Security. Brave new world!

survival of the fittest.
if you are good enough you will get a job anywhere.
fact.
every company on this planet is looking for decent employees.
if you're skilled enough they will get you a work visa.
fact.
if you're not good enough to get a job in another country it just seems relevant to bitch about it and play the race card rather than taking a look at one's cv.

let's face it germany is crying out for highly skilled employees as is every other country.
so if you're not skilled enough then don't bitch to the world and complain of racism.
it's normal that every job market will protect itself. that's why they don't hand visas out to work in mcdonalds.