My experience at a German hospital

Last week my son aged 17 had a blood test following symtoms of anemia, later on our Hause Artz called to say that she was on her way to our house (about 7pm) and he was not to move, lay down and an ambulance would come and take him into hospital to receive urgent blood transfusions due to his HB level being 4 not 14 as it should be.

Obviously we were very worried and followed the Ambulance to the Hospital where as a private patient he would be checked over and taken to his room where he would receive the blood and various treatments they would deem fit.

So I do not bore the pants off every one more than I already have I will list a number of experiences that left my son and Us feeling frustrated angry and aghast at the lack of patient consultation and empathy from the nursing/medical staff. I was wondering if this is a cultural thing ie English people needing to be told what treatment they would be getting and why along with by who and in what manner over what time frame where may be German folk are of sterner stuff with total faith in the medical esablishment and will gladly sit back and be told at the Hospitals whim the relavant information.

Arrive Hospital, taken to admissions left waiting for two hours told nothing

Admitted to public ward even though a private room had been asked for, woke up a really nice old boy trying to get some sleep before his operation in the coming morning(10,30 pm).

Sit in ward waiting for action or information I had to search and find someone; blood transfusion in an hour but two hours later nothing, find another nurse he says cock up, the blood sent to wrong place no blood transfusion till tomorror new blood samples needed (my son hates needles and was really stressed out now (12pm).

The follolwing day still no visit from a doctor, the nurses when found, know very little. In the end I demand to see a doctor and wait again with out result. Eventually insisting he must have a private room(luckily our insurance covered us) because this as they told me would mean that the top man would then take charge we were told that there was no room at the inn, I then got pushy and low and behold we were taken to the private part of the ward and found a room where we were visited by a really nice Proffessor who the explained he was a Cardiologist but would manage the treatment in consultation with the specialist Gastro man.

No blood transfusion yet but we were given the real reason which was a medical worry about matching, but only after we pressed for it. The nurses have no obvious empathy with the patients they onle seem to appear to take the various tests as instucted by the doctors they never give the warmth or human under standing that I have experienced in the UK. The Hygene is questionable, on the third day of being in the same bed which by know bore traces of the blood transfusions (at last) and various tests I asked 3 times to have the sheets changed and had to insist in the end, I was told that beds were changed every 6 days only sooner if more marks left by blood etc were visible. The syringe packaging wipes and blood stained cotton wool were placed in the open bin in the room just inside the bathroom or left by the side of the bed.

After 3 days I really wanted to see the specialist in charge of his care, so we could discuss his case history and understand the planned treament. I was again forced to press the nursing staff for action and not untill I again insisted did I get to meet the main man who was a very infomed experienced doctor in his field but did not seem to see the benefit of meeting his patients and explaining what he was planning to do so they knew what was going on and didn't lay in bed worrying.

I expect I am sensitive to the above experiences as he is my son but in summary I felt he in the end received very good treatment from very informed doctors but the system seems to have not taken onboard the patients need for mental well being and it leaves you feeling out of control and abandoned sitting in a room visited only by uninterested uninformed nursing staff.

wow, they just want to suck your insurance dry! Call your insurance company and tell them what is happening, and see if they have a suggestion.
Normally hospital stays on private are dealt with directly to the insurance, so advise them of all the mess ups.

As for not seeing a Doc, call your normal Doc, and demand! Answers or you will take your son home. Or to a better clinic.

Quite probably more faith in "those that know" than in the UK.

I'm very surprised at the "beds only changed every 6 days" comment.
that is not my experience.

It might depend on the hospital as well.

Monkstown

Further on the bed changing, he had a colonoscopy on day six and they wheeled his bed into the op and wheeled it back into his room ,same sheets but with the evidence of the colonoscopy on the bottom sheet, it was not deemed neccesary to change them.

Having spent 8 weeks in hospital three years ago, I´m surprised to hear of your ordeal. Even though I´m on public insurance, I got plenty of attention and most of the staff were very friendly and willing to explain anything I asked about. The only complaint I have is that I often had to wait a long time for examinations. Btw the beds were changed every three days.

I think DDbug's point is valid. My personal experiences of German hospitals correspond, in the main, with Clive's but two weeks ago my son (16) was admitted to hospital here in Ddorf after getting whacked by a tram. (Luckily his injurys turned out to be a lot less serious than we all thought). The treatment he received by all the nursing staff was absolutely top notch. They were all incredibly friendly, polite, informative and helpful. The doctor's explanations and manner were precise and in delivered in laymans terms. I actually found I was left with no questions to ask.
The hospital food was so good, I even finished his dinner once because he couldn't chew too well and the portions were too large! (I was bloody hungry though!) He wasn't a private patient either.
Very positive praise for this Krankenhaus. Marien Hospital in Düsseldorf if anyone is interested.

Edit: Clive, all the best to your son from me too.

I've no experience with German hospitals, but I know my mother has had to fight her corner constantly with doctors/nurses/hospital admin to ensure my dad got the treatment and care he needed. At times it made all the difference in the world. Communication with patients has improved tremendously over the years, sounds like it has quite a way to go in that hospital.

I think you are doing a great job ensuring your son is taken care of properly, even if it means you have to fight the system at times. Hope he gets well soon!

I am glad your 8 week stay was ok (Ihope you are fully healed) may be it is just this hospital (Landshut Krankenhause) I have spoken to a couple of friends who have also had poor experiences of patient communication/empathy but both had efficient treatment.

Clive,
hospital experiences really do vary between different hospitals here.
I see that you are located in Erding and haven't said which hospital this was. Could this by any chance have been the Erdinger Kreiskrankenhaus?
I hate to say it, but that hospital does not have a good reputation for anything other than very normal, run of the mill treatments.

Likewise, I can also assure you from experience that the Ebersberger Kreiskrankenhaus is almost as bad. In fact, someone very close to me has now had it written into her (kasse, not private) insurance that she will not be taken to Ebersberger KKH ever again after her 8 week ordeal over last Christmas and well into the New Year.

MT

Edit: Whilst writing my response I now see that you have mentioned Landshut Krankenhaus. I have no experience of this one, but know someone who may, if you want a second opinion.

Clive, all the best for your sone by the way!

Thanks Dreamer,

It did feel like we had to fight his corner,it concerns me that if you were on your own or not a confident character then you might spend hours worrying needlesly.

I would not like to suggest all hospitals are the same, the attitude we felt was the same in two wards.

My son is ok now and now on the correct drug therapy, thanks for you kind thoughts

@Clive

Sounds like you went to the hospital in Erding. They are not known for their wonderfull, caring, efficient, staff.. They are down right the worst
hospital in the area, even the germans I know don't want to go there. My suggestion would be to try one of the bigger Hospitals in Munich.

Clive - my toddler son was in hospital for a week with pneumonia a couple of months ago. I share your feelings and experiences with regard to gruff patient care, lack of information, poor hygiene standards, and the fact that we are also privately insured but were not availed of the facilities. This was at the Schwabing hospital, and the experience is one I'd never want to relive.

Only been in Schwabing Hospital but thats 8 times in 5 years and each time top notch fast service. Broke my collarbone a couple of years back-X ray and stuff and out with in 2 Hours! Stitches in Mouth again 1 hour and out. My experience is that Schwabing is a great Hospital and will always go there if possible. Friendly staff who will chat to you and tell you whats going on. Nice Nurses as well which is always good

Dally M - I'm sure you had excellent care, however the Kinderklinik is in the old section of the hospital yet to be renovated, and the facilities as well as the staff need modernisation.

I just had three days in Freising Hospital... similar.. I had no idea what was happening.. a very frightening experience... they even kept me overnight so that the 3rd day could be charged. no idea, never got a report... but did get the bill for the 10 euro per night. was not impressed.
ended up seeing a innerartz... who wondered why a simple bacterial test wasnt done... but everything else was...

It's really interesting to hear about experiences in the various hospitals just to level things up I can say that I went to the Josephinium private hospital in Munich (right by the Englisher garden) for a double hernia job and I was so impressed in every way and as this happend recently I was even more suprised by my sons experience. (both will cost fortunes)

With three young children, all by C-section, two of which have subsequently had broken bones and a comminuted fracture of the fibula for me, we have had a fair bit of experience with German hospitals. It really is a case of which hospital. The first hospital I landed in was awful and reflects some of the views expressed here. For pre-natal care and birth we chose carefully and ended up in Starnberg. Top notch, wonderful, caring - there are not enough accolades to do them justice. Overall I find German healthcare far better than in Britain. It helps of course if you can speak a bit of German, the language barrier makes even the best healthcare workers a little uncommunicative.

Following on from Janx Spirit's positive post, I had fabulous care when having my son at the Geisenhofer Frauenklinik - highly recommended for any expectant mums.

Don't know about the Geisenhofer hams, where abouts is it? What I liked about Starnberg was the pre-delivery bathroom with a massive bath tub and candles, aroma lamps, soft music and silks strung over the ceiling. I was also allowed to join my wife in the tub where we spent a good hour soaking. The Kinderklinik part is also really well done with a felicitous attempt to mask the hospital look. With the second and third C-sections the head surgeon let me watch but that's a story for another day

I was in a German hospital a few years ago. I went to the ER and wasnt seen too for hours, didnt get a bed til the next day I think. I was later advised to switch to private insurance for better treatment, luckily I havent needed a hospital stay since then.

However I was *shocked* when I went to go visit Poots in the hospital. The nurses *on duty* where hanging around smoking, right underneath the no smoking sign. I asked for Mr. X and the nurse directed me by nodding her head and blowing smoke in the room's general (open door) direction. It was very odd to say the least.

They sound like a bunch of chavs!

On the same theme I was disgusted to see the assistants of my dentist standing outside the surgery during their breaktime all smoking cigarettes. And they put their nicotine stained fingers inside people`s mouths...

Janx Spirit - The Geisenhofer is in the English Garten on the Hirschauerstr.

I had an absolutely horrendous experience in a Munich hospital a year ago. I had to have emergency abdominal surgery so I couldn't choose the establishment - I was sent to the Chirurgische Klinik in Nussbaumstr. I should say that it was my first contact with a German hospital, and also that it happened barely weeks after our arrival in Munich from Switzerland so I was expecting a similar level of care. Ha, ha, ha...

Much of what Clive wrote sounds all too familiar, unfortunately, from questionable hygiene and rundown facilities to lack of information and the attitude of the staff. In my case the nursing staff - practically all of them were (ex-)Yugoslav - were actually fine (except that some of them smoked on the ward - as did the doctors), it was the doctors' attitude that came as a real shock.

I was treated exactly the same way. For example, when I insisted on getting some information about my post-op treatment (I was completely on my own because my husband had to look after the children and we had no support network at all since we'd only just arrived), the doctor told me: "You don't need to know what we are doing. As long as we know what we're doing, nothing else matters!" And he didn't say it in a particularly kind and caring tone, needless to say.

There was lots more, including the fact that they botched up the incision so I nearly got blood poisoning from the resulting infection and had to have outpatient treatment for a whole month, but I'll spare you the gory details. Suffice it to say that it wasn't much better than my hospital experience...

Not without rubber gloves they don't - if they aren't wearing them, I would switch dentists.

I was in the Schwabinger here in Munich a couple of years ago for 18 days, I have to say the level of care was spot on, virtually all the staff spoke English to me and because I was Scottish one of the nurses brought me in some whiskey (this was in the last few days as I was by then able to walk about).
This was in a private room.

Lovely rooms hams and a great location.

Exactly - together with lovely staff and modern facilities. As part of the clinic specialises in plastic surgery, one could combine a C-section with a tummy tuck.

Not that I've experience mind.

Nussbaumstrasse / City Centre Hospital / Links der Isar, call it what you will suffers from being old buildings which give it a bad impression.

I've been in the A+E a few times, the care itself is good though the admin is shite.

Friendly competent staff who were happy to tell me what they were doing.

And some of the staff were HOT HOT HOT!

Did you spend any time in the hospital itself, though?

After barely surviving the "friendly" admissions procedure I found the staff at A+E to be fine and they did tell me what I needed to know (read: that I had to go under the knife pronto or I wouldn't get out of there alive), it was upstairs that things promptly went downhill, to coin a phrase.

Not as an in-patient, I'd only go there as an in-patient for things they specialise in tbh if it was a non-emergency.

I think there is a cultural issue here, in that traditionally (though German attitudes seem to be changing in recent years) the Germans are happy to have stern authority imposed on them, because it gives them the feeling that things are under control. Empathy, warmth and human understanding don't really come into the equation. They are also - again traditionally - very much in awe of the medical profession, so the hospital doctors are seen almost as gods, which allows the nurses and especially administrative staff to wield tyrannical power over the meek, submissive patients. I worked for 3 months in one of the large hospitals in Munich 28 years ago, so I had the opportunity to see this from the other side. There were a few angels among the hospital staff, but also some real sadists.

I was in hospital myself 12 years ago, in the Harlachinger Krankenhaus in Munich, and on the whole it was OK. I have private medical insurance - maybe that makes a difference. I did notice though that, although I stayed there 10 nights, they billed me for 11 (at DM 600 per night). When I raised this with them, they said this was because they charged the full rate for both the day of arrival and the day of departure, even though I arrived in the afternoon, and left in the morning after breakfast. Neat way to rake in extra money.

Sounds a bit like the Uni-Klinik in Dresden my mom went to last week. She went there coz she got an immune disorder and they were supposed to make tests to figure out the best medication she needs...well long story short: She was there 4 days, they didnt do any tests they were supposed to take, gave her wrong medications whilst being there and got really annoyed when she knew more about her illness then the docs (being only a house wife and all)

I guess one should always question docs & nurses in Germany...if you can keep searching until you are happy with them.

What I think is most amazing is that not more people die of this "carelessness"

I had the same when I was in the Arabella HNO clinic for my tonsils. I arrived sunday at 4, and left the following saturday at 9am, but I had to pay for the full Saturday. That was 4 years ago, and you know what? It still pisses me off.

I can second that the German's have utmost respect for Docs and put them on pedestals. You are never to question them and just accept what they do, and that they keep you waiting.

Hi Greentea,

I think you have made a good observation, I did get the impression of it being back in the UK 20 years ago when if a so called proffesional whether it be Doctor ,Dentist or teacher or even a figure of authority such as the police pronounced an opinion then it should not be questioned, a sort of tug of the forlock was in order.

Having been in a position of authority I soon found out that not only did I learn more by listening but it saves time and can avoid a cock up (English term with an natty derivation).

My wife for a laugh fully aware of my feelings towards tugging the forlock, royal family priviledge thing bought me a fully legal Lordship title for my birthday 6 years ago and it has been such a hoot to see how some people react to it and how I got preferential treatment in my Bank, car hire company and a few hotels not to mention an Airline upgrade. I should add that I normally confess to the titles credentials.

I have been in various German hospitals for various reasons in the past 20 years. If you insist on information you get it.
As to inattentive and insensitive staff German employees are on par with the American ones I experienced when my Ma had a knee replacement in March. The morphine drip was out of order and I had to raise bloody hell for them to get a replacement NOW and not wait until central services brought one up from the basement. One nurse put Ma on a bedpan and left the room without checking if she could access the call button, which she couldn't as it had slipped behind her back and she was lying on it, unable to move. Ma was calling out for help but no one heard her as the door had thoughtfully been closed. I spoke harshly to the staff more than once because I know that Ma is too nice to complain but the care was absolute crap.
And she worked in the hospital's Quality Department at the time! I hope the whole ward got sacked, they deserved it.

Hi Sarabyrd,

You can only speak as you find, I can assure you that I am not backward at coming forward, I asked insisted reinsisted and then demanded on various requests. so in my sons case you are wrong in what you say.

The faults seem to lay in the lack of open communication between the doctors and the nurses the nurses seem at times reticent to approach senior staff and fobed me off with numerous excuses as to why things were not happening. I would say that the major problem lays with the senior staff who have to take the laed in breaking down the hierarchy.

There are many bad and good hospitals in the UK/USA I am only refering to this one experience of two wards in one Hospital. The other parts of the Hospital could be fantastic but I would be surprised.

I am sorry to hear about your Mothers treatment I hope sjhe got out of there as soon as possible what a nightmare.

there was a thread a while back on a another board complaining about the Spanish attitudes towards patient care, much the same all business no small talk, if I can find it I post it. Over all my experiences with health care in Germany have been quite positive, while no hospitalizations were required I had 2 knee surgeries (one he had to rush to fit me in before we moved) and all the usual visits. Having moved 3 times as well we had no problems finding a family doctor (in the public system no less) or access to specialists.

My family (from Canada) calls Germany health care heaven. They couldn't believe that I had no problem finding a family doctor (they came close to closing the ER in Kitchener due to severe staffing shortages and forget getting a family Doctor, impossible) and that drugs dental care etc are all covered. My brother in law has 4 kids and can't afford basic dental care much less orthodontics that all the kids will probably need. My opthopidic insloes were paid for (300 euros a set in Canada).

Of course none of this is sustainable in the long run but that's another story.

A lot seems to depend on the hospital doctor you see, while my experiences were mainly positive, a friend with private health care had a very special eye operation done, the doctor (chief of surgery) showed up 3 hours late for the operation after the freezing had started to wear off and then after the operation told him not to come back. Find some one else to remove the gauze! Thankfully he tested 100% after the operation.

As we all know customer service sucks in Germany, my nephew, when he visited last year (just before we moved) couldn't believe how rude everyone was (but enough bits and bytes have been wasted on that topic)

I had an experience with the Dr. I've been taking my daughter to and the pharmacies. She got very sick very fast, the Dr. tested her for Strep A - which came up positive. She was prescribed penicillin, but the Dr. didn't have the correct dosage for my daughter's weight in her computer, so she told me to have the pharmacist tell us the dosage. That was my first concern, as her Pediatrician in the States always calculated the exact dosage for prescriptions, and even for Tylenol! Pharmacist tells us 3 spoons 3x a day. We ended up going through 100ml of penicillin in three days. On the third day, my daughter developed HUGE welts all over her body, and it was after hours Saturday so the Dr. wasn't in. I went to one of the open pharmacies - not the one that filled the Rx - and found we were supposed to be giving 1 spoon 3x a day, but her welts didn't fit the usual symptoms of penicillin allergy or overdose, so "don't worry". Frantic that we've poisoned our daughter we scour the internet and find that her welts are characteristic of "serum syndrome" - overdose. Monday comes, I take her to the Dr. first thing, and he asks "Do you have a dog w/fleas"? Oh my, I was so dumbfounded that he would think these welts the size of a silver dollar would be flea bites. Then he prescribed another 100ml of penicillin. I said "but, she's already taken her entire dosage in three days!" He told me she must take the penicillin for seven days (I do understand the reasoning behind taking the peni for seven days). I go to the pharmacy that originally told us 3 spoons 3x a day, the same girl, and she refused to believe she had told me wrong the first time. And, she refused to believe that the welts were from overdose or allergy b/c they "didn't fit the usual symptoms". She agreed with the Dr. that my daughter should have another 100ml of penicillin. I couldn't believe that the Dr. and pharmacist refuse to see a connection between the welts and the penicillin! And, they were very nearly completely offended I would question them.

I go home and spend more time searching the web - weighing the odds of penicillin overdose/allergy against the odds of her Strep A not being gone and having her end up seriously ill from Strep A complications. After a lot of reading and a lot of consultation with family, I chose not to give her the penicillin. It took a week for the welts to go away, but even now, a month later - I can see where they were. I hope they fade away. She's not had any symptoms of Strep A, NONE, EVER, other than the positive throat swab done in the office. And just for the heck of it, while we are here (in the States for the Holidays), I will be taking my daughter to her old Pediatrician with the full story and have her thoroughly looked over.

Typical. Fits in perfectly with earlier discussions about how people here, in positions of authority or not, rarely apologize or admit that they are wrong.

One problem could have been languge, I find that not all Doctors and Nurses are willing or able to speak in English. About half the time I can converse in English the rest I had to use my bad German.

Hi Tim Hortons Man what you say about not speaking the language does explain some of it but I am left with the overall feeling that there is an authority problem here and I feel sorry for those that have to work at the frontline ie the nurses. My brother, back 10 years ago in the UK was very close to several (female) nurses, lucky bugger and they had ran scared at the sight of a consultant and had no chance to contribute to the healing process except for doing what they were told quite a Victorian regime, but now I am glad to say their skills are realised and respected along with much improved communication up and down the line.

Hi Clive!

I hope your son is feeling better now.

From my experience the hospital service really depends on the staff.

I spent a week in Mannheim Klinikum hospital in April, where i rush into by my boyfriend to have my appendix out. At the time i spoke very little german and my doctor spoke very little english. But he still made every effort to explain things for me, by getting american nurses (ment for american army personnel) to help me translate or coming back in the evening to tell my german boyfriend. They also allowed me to keep my mobile on so my worried family could ring me direct as they don't speak german.

But a few months later i went back to the same hospital after fainting and i had to wait 4hrs for x-rays!!