Germans are negative and conservative in business

Right then,

Time for a typical expat moan. As you know I am cut off from the big wide city and stuck with the children which is mostly quite nice, nicer than being in an office I must say. When the children are both in KG, I dream off having a go at some business of my own, having had such a negative experience of the office environment in Germany.

I just get the impression when talking to Germans that they are far better at finding reasons why thinkgs won't work here than how they CAN work. I call it a "can't do" mentality.

Does anyone agree with this?

(cloudy tonight, no astronomy, shit!)

its called blame culture. they can have it bad here. find the guilty person before the sollution. or worse sticking to your guns and following a descision through even though it is known to be the wrong one. thats interpreted as being a strong manager here, as opposed to a blithering irresposible idiot in other cultures.

Where's Johnny Norfolk when you really need him?

I'm loving being self-employed over here at the moment! Went live with my German version website about 3 weeks ago and am staggered that the buggers are buying so much stuff. I am really amazed.

I think this is still potential goldrush for internet businesses over here. The downside is that you need to offer about 8 different payment options 'cos only 1 in 10 have credit cards, but once you have stomached that you see how CRAP the german opposition is in many areas.

People talk about Web 2.0 but I reckon lots of german websites are still stuck on a buggy version of Web 0.5

So get amongst it Jeremy - you got a potential customer base of 100M German speaking punters and rubbish competition.

Oh yeah and I also live in bumsville nowhere so that is not an issue.

Stop moaning and read:
http://www.amazon.com/Kiss-Bow-Shake-Hands...s/dp/1558504443

UPDATE: fixed link.

The company where I used to work has a Department head who is known world-wide in the various sales and service organisations as "Dr. No"

He is in charge of one of the development departments and any change requests for product enhancements, new features or even new products within his area of responsibility have to cross his desk.
We once sent a very well documented and much needed change request from the UK, in fact our manager personally brought it over to Munich.

In a meeting, Dr. No said he would have to "Think about it".
After about 8 minutes he said "No".

This was followed by the question "I thought you were going to think about it?"
"I did, the answer's No"

Yes, this is very typical over here, especially within that particular company.

Another story from some years ago in the same company:
A new product was officially released, let's call it "ABC".
It was very clear that the product was totally unfit and unready for the market, but it was still released.
When this decision was questioned, it was officially answered that "ABC" had been justifiably granted production release status because it was no worse than product "XYZ" which had been released 2 years previously!

As it happens, product XYZ was a disaster and needed those two years and lots of cash to get customer acceptance!
(Just like product "ABC"!)

I like to always consider the negatives and buggery bits in business to my advantage.

Therefore from Jeremy's point of view the fact that the German's are negative and pessimistic in business is great news for the rest of us that aren't. So go kick some arse!

p.s. That said when I draw up a business plan, I only calculate "how much will I lose" and "what is the breakeven point". I never calculate for a profit. Of course I want to make a profit, but don't actually think there is any point in calculating for it. The only useful calculations are the potential losses. Profit are a nice problem if you get things right.

To answer the topic question, I think it depends on the company you keep but for the majority of people I know, the answer is no, fortunately.

However, the negatives/conservative ones I have come across tend to be quite useful in pointing out holes in ideas or plans, which can be very useful for making a go of things. Moral of the story: don't be dragged down but don't tune these people out either.

BTW: If your serious about starting a business, Id stop worrying so much about the germans you do meet and spend some of that "dreaming" time on developing your business plans and network list. Im sure theres a lot of useful leg work you can do here and there before the kids go off to KG.

Good luck!
jml

Yes.


You know my boss?

Funny, I rarely noticed a negative attitude in Germany. I think that's partly me of course, and as I rarely worked with the same people for very long, it was easy enough to overlook if they weren't being helpful.

But in a way, it is easy if you run your own business. Someone says no, you shrug your shoulders and go on to the next one, no big deal. No one can stop you from doing what you want. Having said that, I encountered a lot more yes's than no's on average.

I think that lots of Germans are terrified of making mistakes. Rather than make a mistake they tend to say no if they see some personal risk in it if it might not work. On the other side they will often do exactly what they are told even if they know it won't work as then they can't take the blame if it goes horribly wrong.

Amen and allelujah brother.

There is such a massive problem in this country with people taking responsibility for shit. Blame, blame, blame. Who gives a fuck about solving some probelm, lets just concentrate on where we can pass the buck to, and who we can blame. I thought working in Singpaore was bad, in a blame culture sense, but Germany is perhaps even worse, something I would never have thought possible.
Respect to JE for having an attitude to try and use that to an advantage, but for the majority of people who don't have the talent, guts or inclination to start their own business and instead work for a German company, this blame culture crap is a nightmare.

i agree with the fact that they like to play the name, blame & shame game and i don't think thats the best way to resolve problems. i think sometimes the endless reems of paperwork & bureaucracy gets in the way of the simplest of plans here ... they often get lost in the detail, rather than get motivated by a goal. that can sometimes put a negative slant on things. but i guess you find that everywhere. i've encountered as many assholes in work in Germany as i have elsewhere. the only difference here is the absence of subtlety ... direct unfiltered "feedback" can be a painful experience if you're not used to it.

interesting to read here:),
yes you are right. We germans are fixed on security. we don't love the risk.
We love to complain instead of developing perspectives.
The absence of sublety as you call it, yes I know what you're talking about. Being german I notice that when I am abroad. We prefer to hear what really matters instead of fishing for compliments.

i wouldn't say the english language way is fishing for compliments ... the politeness it's all about building rapport & trust, sussing someone out. chit chat about the weather is a good example ... it's pointless conversation, but it serves as an ice-breaker, seeks feedback as to how open someone is to chat and it's also a way of acknowledging someones presence (as opposed to just ignoring them). most of it really is an excercise in mutual affirmation. to break the rule is plain & simply rude. compliments are optional !!

In my experience big corporations tend to be unresponsive to new ideas and are very conservative, regardless of nationality or location. Also don't believe the hype very few companies that rant about their risk taking, forward looking, innovating culture really live up to it once your cog in the big machine.

i find this to a big problem in my company. In projects, when things aren't going to plan, it seems that more effort is put into massive powerpoint presentations as to why things aren't going to plan or why things won't work rather than putting effort into finding solutions. As Gideon says, terrible blame culture. And because of the blame culture people also won't admit when they make mistakes (and lets face it, we are all human, everyone makes mistakes now and again) so either try and hide it or push the blame on others. Often it would be much simpler if people simply said, oops made a mistake there, lets try that again.

Oh come on now - blame culture ?

English & Welsh RFU

Nuff said!

What OG said is totally true within his company, which, in a way, is my company(since we do all our work for them). But also, I notice it with my colleagues, blame, blame, blame. One colleague regularly is late for work and then blames his alarm clock - "it didn't go off" - or the Ubahn -"it takes so long" - yes, well, if you know it takes so long, then start out earlier! Duh.
I am more of the mentality 'I don't care right now what went wrong, I just want it fixed first and then we can figure out what went wrong so it doesn't happen again' - seriously, blaming other people is such a waste of time and energy and it doesn't accomplish a darn thing.

My main job at the moment is just that trying to train German management to be more positive.

It is very dificult I have met so many people that just want to blame all the time and that is why no one wants to make a decision.

It runs very deep in German culture they want to have a Mr big that makes all the decisions and they then just go and carry it out.

They have asked me to carry on as they think I have made progress, but I dont think I have, as soon as you leave tham alone they are back at it again .

This is Johnny Norfolk right? *YOU* teaching GERMANS to be more positive? What do you do - tell them they are shitr all day in the hope they rebel?

classic!

this negative attitude is my "problems" with my fellow-country (wo)men. whenever anyone makes a suggestion for something new or gives examples of how things are done somewhere else, you are talking to a brick wall.

I agree

"Ramona Wonneberger ist Diplom-Ingenieurin und Gründerin der Software-Firma Nutzwerk in Leipzig. Vor fünf Jahren schrieb sie ein Ärger-und-Jammer-Verbot in die Arbeitsverträge ihrer 15 Mitarbeiter. Nörgeln darf seither nur noch, wer zugleich einen konstruktiven Vorschlag äußert."

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/jobkarriere/erf...ikel/697/92605/

Bel the shat

Yes its true. I have for the last 3 years been involved in trying to to bring modern management into german companies. is it any wonder my attitude to Germany. Still i have not given up yet.

Why dont you try and make a contribution instead of being so negative to me.

You can come and take part in my' Action Centred Leadership' course for a fee.

BANG on!!


Good luck with that Johnny, christ you must like a challenge!!!

You also deal with all the kindergarten politicing that goes on too! They spend 90% of the day either sticking arrows in each others back of worrying who is sticking some in theirs.

Working here is much harder than anywhere else that I have experienced.

At last some people who have seen the reality of Germany. I am not alone.

Be aware, may be this german decease is infectious:).

@johnny Norfolk
by the way what are you doing in Bad Kreuznach? there is no big industry. Only Michelin, which is french, Seitz Filterwerke and Schneider Optik. This is really countryside near to the Hunsrück (a region mentally closer to the middleage than to globalism).