Child orders "free" SMS service via Internet - Germany

I recieved a letter from a collection company yesterday stating I owed €145.00 to a company I had never even heard of. So I look it up and it is an internet SMS site. I question my 14 year old daughter about this when she comes home from school and she said "yeah, I signed up for it but thought it was free and when I treid to use it, it didn't work".

She obviously didn't read the ABG (fine print). She signed up for a two year contract which costs €8 per month plus anything over 100 SMS. Needless to say I wanted to choke her, and she is not allowed on the internet until further notice etc..

But my question is: Since she is a minor can they stick me with this contract?

If it's in your name, I would say you are liable. If it is in hers, then probably not.

How are you going to prove that it was her and not you?

And what about the entire, "You can cancel the contract if it was made over the internet"? Or did you wait too long?

Go to your nearest Verbraucherzentrale, they will be able to help.

For reference, see also a related earlier topic: Getting in debt by not reading the AGBs carefully

Unfortunately, she put my name on the account but gave her email address. This was done back in September so it has probably been too long to cancel. All correspondence was sent to my daughter's email address which she deleted.

I know I will have to pay the bill. Even though I don't understand why it is soo much if it is only supposed to be €8 per month and she swears she hasn't used it because it wouldn't work.

Who received the debt collectors letter?
In whose name was the contract?

You or your minor daughter?

This is a greyish area the EU is trying to clamp down on.

Your daughter was committing a "fraud" on you by using your name. I think the providers of such services know full well that parents often think they will just pay it so they have no identity or credit checks.

Verbraucherzentrale and I'd be tempted to tell this company to get lost.

Good luck!

There was a report about this sort of thing on Akte 06, read here:

http://www.sat1.de/lifestyle_magazine/akte.../content/15358/

At the Medienmesse in Munich a few weeks ago I met with the founders of SCHAU HIN!. In their latest magazine they addressed this specific issue.

Before the age of 18 no German is considered "Vertragsfähig". If a child under this age enters into a contractual agreement withought the consent of the parent, the parent is not necessarily required to pay the bill.

Out of curiousity and not really relevant, are you going to make your daughter pay you back the money?

Jasmine,

A little more info for you...

I work in the mobile telecoms field. This issue, especially in regards to under-aged users surfing the operator's portals for downloads and/or registering for content services via content aggregators is constantly being discussed.

The first step you should do is contact the collection agency and tell them that your under-aged daughter entered this "contract" without your knowledge or consent and that although you will not be sending them (the collection agency) any money, you want to keep them informed of the steps that you are taking. Let them know that you are in contact with the Verbraucherszentrum (that is your second step, to contact them immediately) and that you will be in touch with them soon.

You might also want to contact one of the help hotlines through Schau Hin and ask them for any direction or advice they can give.

If the content aggregator/SMS aggregator that your daughter purchased the service from accepts new customers with only a mobile number and email as identity verification, that is there problem more than it is yours (especially because they are not properly screening for fraud). Only, there seems to be some missing link here. If you sign up for a service like this, the SMS aggregator normally shares a billing platform with your mobile operator. This is because they need to be able to bill you for the SMS somehow..They also need a connection to mobile operators network and permission to send SMS to that network.

One advantage that you have is this:

If the SMS aggregator does not want to play nice, simply let them know that you know..that mobile operators (T-mobile, Vodafone etc) are very quick to block aggregators from their network if they even get a hint at professional or contractual irresponsibility of any kind on behalf of the aggregator.

All you have to do is look here - it's printed in black and white:

Vorgehen bei ungewollten Internet-Abo-Verträgen

Firstly, a child under 18 is not liable for payment. If you can prove that your child signed up, there are no worries whatsoever.

If you can't prove that it was your child, you still have the possibility of Widerspruch (also known as § 312d BGB ).


Please note to period of 14 days. Once you have done this, there will be no further legal requirements on your behalf.

If the 14 days have expired, you still have § 119 Abs. 1 BGB, otherwise known as Anfechtung ... have a look at the link I provided.

So don't worry ... you have nothing to worry about whatsoever!

Oops, I didn't read that the debt collectors are already hounding you. In this case all you can use is § 119 Abs. 1 BGB, I suppose.

Exactly.

Thanks a lot for all of the helpful advice!

I have been trying to get a hold of the collection agency all day. I keep getting a recording saying "all operators are busy leave your name, number etc... then after the tone there is another recording saying "there is no room for any more messages try again later."

I also tried to get a hold of the internet site the only contact information is a mailing address and email address. I did send an email, for what good it will do.

Tomorrow I will call the Verbraucherszentrum. And I will read all of the helpful links and information provided.

Planetmoni- yes, if I end up stuck with this bill. She is required to pay me back the money!

Could you please tell me which site your daughter signed on to? I am an IT advisor and have to deal with this kind of problem almost every week. Hiding costs in the AGB is common practice with these swindlers. I recommend you DO NOT, under any circumstances pay the bill.

They will push you, trying to bully you into submission. They will however NOT prosecute. Most of these sites belong to well-known individuals (google for Gebrüder Schmidtlein for instance), and they can not afford any kind of judicial publicity. The worst that could happen to them is losing a precedence case.

All you need to do now is to inform them in writing, that your daughter is under age and therefore the contract is invalid. Furthermore, inform them that your daughter was under the impression that their offer was free of charge. They will lie to you and tell you that it is covered by the so-called Taschengeldparagraph (allowing minors to decide for themselves how to spend their allowance). This is false, as proven in court. Just ignore their replies from that point on.

HTH

- but the girl said it didn't work. If it didn't work, it cannot be considered as having begun.
See also Beschränkte Geschäftsfähigkeit (German link):



...with further reference, however, to the Taschengeldparagraph.

If the parents do not give this permission the contract is invalid.

Is it just me or does anyone else think she should be required to pay the bill regardless. Teaches a valuable lesson in reading the fine print. At the very least the amount of time and hassle your going through deserves some sort of recognition on her part. Id say breakfast in bed every weekend or double chores for every month she didnt tell you about the contract. Im a meanie, me.

Good luck getting this resolved.

Yes.


That makes two of us.

Jasmine, I hope everything works out fine in the end.

Although I am in no way a fan of the EU as an institution they are working their best to protect consumers from such sharks.

When we all slag "Brussels" we should think that a lot of the regs coming out of there protect the consumer better than national law ever did.

I agree with that. But then again my kids get fined for leaving lights on, so I'm a double meanie.

Hi there Tek Guy ... just out of curiosity, have you had any dealings with www.onlinequiz.de?

I've got one or two issues with them!

Looks like old-school "Should've read the fine print before signing up".

However, seeing as there are thousands of games like this online for free, charging 10€ per game is certainly steep. Did you play and how mcuh are they asking for? When did you play?

The Tek Guy- the site is 123simsen.com

jml- she is deffinately being punished- I am getting repaid in exchange for free babysitting (and I could really use a drink!)

My daughter came home today and told me another girl in her class is having the same problem from the same site! I am going to try and get a hold of her mother tonight.

I still haven't heard anything back from the site or the debt collection agency, not that I really expect to. It just really seems quite odd to me that for 2 days I have tried to call the debt agency and always get the same message "no one is available to take this call leave a message--there no space available to leave a message" Also waiting to hear back from Verbraucherszentale.

This is soooo irritating!

Hey Jasmine,

don't be so hard on your daughter. She should have told you earlier, and probably would have if she'd known she was expected to pay anything. It advertises 100 free SMS and the only place the costs can be found is the AGB. This is clearly illegal. Stop trying to call them, nobody will pick up. Write the letter informing them that your daughter is under age and assumed the site was free. Send this in a letter (ideally Einschreiben mit Rückschein) and you're done.

I'm not going to be too hard on her because like you said the advertisment is misleading and I know she wouldn't have done it if she ´knew she had to pay.

The thing she is really being punished for is the fact that I have repeatly told her not to sign up for crap like this on the internet for fear something like this would happen! Hopefully, a lesson has been learned!

I will have my mother-in-law write the letter for me so I don't screw up writing it in german!

For those that are saying the daughter should pay up (to learn a lesson)...Maybe or Maybe not

But under no circumstances should the daughter pay-up to this scum firm!! Rather donate some money to charity...

My 13 year old son has received an invoice by email, then followed up yesterday in the post. The bill is for 99,29 Pounds for a "free" sms service that he'd subscribed to on the net. It has his name & address and a credit card number quoted on it too. I asked him whose credit card number it is & he said he made it up!!!
Without getting too stressed with him I explained the implications about fraud etc & have told him if I have to pay it he won't be getting a pocket money for a while, but the question is does anyone know the legal standpoint in this situation? I don't really want to pay it & will call the company today to try and sort it out, but given that he's only 13 what difference does that make, if any?

[color=gray]Topics merged by admin

It does sound a bit odd that they charged your son for a "free" service. Who is the company?

There is another thread about this as someone else had the same problem Child orders "free" SMS service via Internet.

(don't know how to do that thingy where you insert the name of the thread to link to duh!!!)

Bizarre thing is it's a German company & the bill says it 85 pounds for a "one off set up fee".
The company is IgluSoft Medien GmbH ·Bahnhofstr. 56 · D-35390 Gießen · www.iglusoft.com

If the credit card number wasn't legitimate, then how can the transaction still go through? Don't they have to clear the payment before he can actually use their service?

I guess not!? I suppose that they tried to bill the card then realised that it doesn't work & are now sending the bill via email & now by post.

A 13 year old can neither have a credit card or enter into a legally binding contract.

---> Verbraucherzentrale.

---> Follow up complaint to the trading standards in Giessen.

The AGBs from this company make interesting reading. In essence this is a pre-paid SMS service with a €99 setup charge. You load the pre-paid account from credit card, but have to pay the €99 setup charge independently on receipt of invoice.

Section 1.4 advises that the service is only available to people over 18 years of age, unless they have written permission of parent or guardian, and that entering a false date of birth is "not allowed" (!!)

Section 5.5 advises that the contract can be cancelled at any time without reason, within 14 days of sign-up. Assuming the sign-up was less than 14 days ago this is your easiest get out. You need to write to them by fax, email or letter.

Section 5.1 advises that the contract can be cancelled at any time, but money paid is not refunded. This might be the alternative approach, with the potential loss of €99 which you will still be liable to pay.

It's clear, however, that a child cannot, or should not sign up to this service. It could be quite a battle to prove that it was, in fact a child who did - it now depends on how hard you want to fight.

You MUST respond to the invoice, either by paying it, or at least rejecting it and the service, in the hope they look on you kindly. Simply ignoring it will open a can of worms and may lead to a long-term bad credit rating.

YL6

Thanks for that YL6.
I've already called them today but all lines were busy. I'm going to find out when he ordered the service & go from there.
He did this in England so it's interesting that the "service" costs 99 Euros here & in the UK they charge 99 Pounds!

I've spoken to customer services about this and my son aparently set this up on the 1st Dec last month, so sending an invoice out some 4 weeks later is conveniently past the 14 days cooling off period.
According to them, he put his date of birth as 28/1/85 so needed no signature from his parents. IF I fax a copy of his birth certificate they will waive the invoice BUT will still require an administration fee. My answer was that I will send the proof of his age & they can take him to court if they so wish. They will get themselves even more bad publicty. I'm sure he's not the only minor that's done this with them.

Again, the company is IGLUSOFT & they will be reading this thread as I directed them to it.

This outfit looks dodgy, however I can't see where they offer free sms's.

When you click on products they direct you to:

http://www.select.eusms.com/

Here it states that its 99 euros, including 99 sms's and then "only" 6.5c per SMS after that. This seems ridiculously expensive, seeing as people like voipcheap.com offer the same service for 5c per sms without any stupidly expensive 99 euros setup fee!

Seems this company has been catching a lot of youngsters out with the offer of "free" sms service. The Verbraucherzentrale has some advice on this forum but my German isn't good enough that I'm 100% clear what it says.
My son never sent any sms's or used the service

Their answer isn't 100% clear eother!

Soz, no time to translate.

No problem, thanks MT. I think I get the general drift but also interesting from that youth forum how many young people have been caught by this f**kface of a company. Obviously they rely on confusing youngsters with their offer of "free" sms service but written somewhere under the conditions is about the hidden costs.

reading further in http://www.jugendnetz.de, the Verbraucherzentrale seem to say that if you are 14 years old or over you are liable, 13 years or less & you are not. That's good news for my son as he isn't 14 for another 3 weeks!


EDIT: EB don't stress out on me geez for posting German stuff please. I don't do it often

Jeckel the Verbraucherzentrale were basically saying that under 18 you can't make a contract. The parents have the option of accepting or rejecting the contract. However if the parents reject the contract then the company has the option of suing for damages.

That makes a certain amount of sense. If a little 10 year old throws a fire cracker under your car burning it, then you might expect to be able sue for damages.

The Verbraucherzentrale also states that the charges are evident from their AGB.

However the company would have to demonstrate what damages your son caused them. My advice would be that if the adminstrative charge is less than Euro 10 then pay it, if more, tell them to prove these damages.

With advertising their software as Free SMS Shareware I'm not suprised so many kids are getting caught out.

More of the same chat on another German website www.pcwelt.de

Well yes, the software needed to send the SMSs is shareware and free, but you still need to pay for an account.

Definetly sneaky, but Germany has basically fucking disgraceful consumer protection.

send sms Software Freeware Shareware Free Download- [ Diese Seite übersetzen ]
send sms Software send sms Freeware send sms Shareware send sms Free Downloads. ... Size: 16.0 KB, License: Freeware, Price: Free, By: IgluSoft Medien GmbH ...
www.brothersoft.com/downloads/send-sms.html - 30k - Im Cache - Ähnliche Seiten

That's the sort of thing that comes up when you search "free sms iglusoft" which is misleading for kids!

Sorry Jeckel but thats really not so misleading. Its says the software is free, which it is. Also there's no point convincing us, we're not the jury.

The main point is that your jid had no right to make a contract without your approcal, and the only redress the company has is to sue you for the damage he caused. Its not worth suing you for the amount of damage he caused, they just hope (and a lot probably do) that you'll cave in and pay.

MadAxeMurderer my nipper has had a right bollocking don't worry. Not only did he lie about his age but he was dumb enough to put his own name & address It just seems that the people getting caught with "free" software that has a 99 Euro (or 99 Pound Sterling) one off set up fee is kids. Looking round the net today there are shed loads of kids getting caught. I'm certainly not saying that it's ok to do what he's done but these companies are targeting kids with "free" offers.

This link defo says "Send free SMS messages from your computer" under search uk websites only. (free sms iglusoft)

Guy in the office - his 13 year old daughter managed to order some stuipid horoscope online from a Swiss company and the €62 bill for this printed tat just turned up.

Can he tell them to stick the bill?

I think this has been covered before and we might be able to quote some German law etc to tell the company to go away, as she is under age to enter into what is in
effect a "credit" order - because she did not pay be credit card etc, so in theory she now has a "debt"???

[color=gray]Topics merged by admin

I searched for the keyword 'bill' and got this first hit: http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index...showtopic=53462