No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

Related topic: Berlin leads way in lengthening shop opening hours

Apparently, yesterday a vote was held in Bavaria by their state politicians over the shop opening times.

The choice was to keep things as they are, open during the week until 10pm or to have a free for all.

They have voted to keep the opening hours as they are and apparently 60% of people living in Bavaria, when asked, agreed with the decision.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen the hours run until 10pm during the week and closed all day Sunday. (Though some of the car washes that are situated in the middle of nowhere are now open on Sunday too, which does seem to be very popular)It does seem as if, for the forseeable future, the 24/7 hours that a few seem to hanker for, is not going to happen.

I have tried to find a link to confirm all this but nothing forthcoming at the moment.

Related topic: Berlin leads way in lengthening shop opening hours

Here's something from Bayern 5. Bayern 5 - Ladenschluss.

I'd like to see shops have the choice to open as and when they wish.


Ah, but this would lead to the pig fascist caplitalist whipholders forcing the good honest socialist working man to work 90000 hours a week.

Fuck off monkstown, stop using your good honest socialist working man powers of telepathy to fuck up my posts.

Actually Don, that sort of happened in the UK. When the supermarkets started to open on Sundays, the workers were paid a much higher rate but they were, gradually, all replaced by staff that had a contract saying that Sunday was a normal working day for them and they would not be paid extra as they had a day off during the week.

I just thought that even if the residents in Bavaria had voted, the shop times would remain the same, though on this forum most seem to want 24/7. I have drawn the conclusion that it seems to be we stupid foreigners that seem to unable to survive without having to go to B&Q for a bag of picture hooks on a Sunday afternoon

canaryman is right. bayern 3 did an internet poll yesterday on the opening hours and over 60% voted, that they want the time NOT to change.

Just let the shops open when they wish. Why should they not. ?

Interesting report the other day in the SZ on the issue across Bavaria
The "demand" for longer opening hours is really only something that is being driven by realtively few retailers and relatively few consumers in the larger cities. In smaller towns shops still shut by 6 etc even though they could open till 8.

Even in the supposed "nirvana" of the UK, it is is not unusual for city centre stores to shut by 6 several days a week.

Shopping till 8, six days a week seems fair enough to me.
Any further concession I'd like to see linked to shop size to only allow shops under X M² to open for bread and milk and bits and bobs on a Sunday etc. Not just benefit the likes of Saturn and Co.

I think they should be allowed to open when they want subject to neibour disturbance.

Why should people not be allowed to shop when they want to.

Why can garages sell at all hours and not others.

It does not make sense. Unless of course you are a business that does not want any competition.

For me personally, 8pm is fine. I'm too lazy to go out any later to go shopping

You see the contadiction there Johnny?

Why make neighbour disturbance a condition? Surely that distorts a truly free market?
As has been pointed out to you by posters who certainly aren't terrible lefties like me a TOTALLY free market doesnt work, some regulation is always needed, the question is where and how much that is debateable.

The CSU (much as I'm so NOT a fan of them) has based their decision on the wishes of the population around their demand for shopping and the kind of society they want to live in. They were also well aware of the attraction of shopping in other Länder and in Austria and Czech Republic where different rules apply.

There is a degree of protectionism from competition in here.
The winners from a free for all in shopping hours would be the large chain stores and out of town malls.
Smaller shops and with the exception of the chain stores, shops in the inner city would be the losers.

Longerterm, that could distort the beloved free market.
Look at the UK where all the shops in all the towns are the same, I assume you've heard of the "clone town" label.

I'm too lazy to go shopping at all. Luckily I have a petrol station right opposite which seems to be always open for the essentials.

@MonksTown
Which ever way you look at it, longer/Sunday opening hours create jobs. Isn't that good?

To wind you up!

JW, I've thrown it out now. But in the SZ article I read, I think a bod from the IHK or similar claimed that previous liberalisation of shopping hours hadn't created any more jobs in significant numbers. Trend anyway in retail is for lower staffing and I suspect any extension of hours would be covered by existing staff working longer.

bottom line is the Bavarians voted against it so we'll have to learn to live with it whether we thnk it's a good idea or not.
I personally don't mind that the shops are closed on Sundays, it's a nice chill-out day for me, I make sure I get all my shopping done on a Saturday.

*cough*

The CSU voted against it but as we live in a one party state...

I get ya guv!
still, most Bavarian residents don't want the hours to change though if this 60% stat is to be believed.

Fair enough, however how liberalized were the shopping hours? As the change couldn't have been significant, I can understand that the improvement in job creation wasn't either.


I agree with the first part, however a significant increase in opening hours would inevitably oblige employers to hire more staff.


No offense, but I have never understood this line of thinking. When I was still in the US, where shops are open all the time, I never felt stressed out by this. If I didn't want/need to shop, I just stayed at home - it's not like knowing that other people maybe out there shopping got me all tense. If anything, the fact that you are forced to get everything done on Saturday if you work in continental Europe is more nerve-racking than anything else, imho.

What's it got to do with whether you feel like shopping on a Sunday or not, or whether it suits your working week/social days etc?
It's about rights of shop owners to do their business as they see fit, and not have it dictated to them by whingey little power mongers who think they have to control everything.
I can't believe anyone thinks it's ok to stop them running their business at specific times 'for their own good'.
Get off their backs. It shouldn't even be a vote, it should just be natural to give them this freedom like it is for every other type of business. Set retailers free.
p.s. I hate shopping.

I'm not sure JW that a 24/7 liberalisation would be taken up by many shops. Just the large retailers in the larger cities. I forget the old times but there has already been a significant liberaisation in the last decade.

What we saw with the last liberalisation was significant. Kaufhof at Stachus used to get business off me on the way to work as they openend at 8AM. Afer liberalisation they moved opening to 10AM but openend to 8PM.

The UK is a clear example. Where there are more liberalised hours, shops will open where there is the demand that is most profitable to satisfy, they won't nescessarily stick to the line well we'll open till 10PM becasue we can.

You can see that anyway, with plenty of shops in the country shutting at 6.
Try going shoping for even bread or milk in the Bavarian Jungle after 1PM on a Saturday...

Marshbot, "for their own good" means having regulations in place that protect smaller shopkeepers from the large chains.

Why shouldn't shopkeepers be allowed to sell 40°+ spirits to those under 18? Meddling in the market and there is certainly demand! etc etc

I guess it's what you're used to, or what you can get used to. tbh all I wanna do on Sunday is lie in then go down the pub for pints & football, wouldn't catch me near a shop.

think in Blighty the shops are allowed to open for 4 hours on a Sunday if they want to, aren't they? perhaps this'd be a compromise.

What about the shops in the main station that are already allowed to open on sunday?

So it wouldn't bother you then if other people were out shopping.


IIRC shops over a certain size are only allowed to open for 6 hours, small shops can open for longer.

The law provides an exception for BONA FIDE travellers.
Opening a shop in a railway station / petrol station / airport allows you to dodge the law.

So what's the point of the law then?

I've gone shopping at the train station without being a bona fide traveller. If they were really serious about this, then you would be required to show a ticket at the register when buying your goods - like they do at duty free shops at the airport.

no, why?

If you can't compete in your own right, then you shouldn't be in business.


Because you can kill yourself with spirits. Laws that are in place to protect minors from harming themselves are not comparable to allowing Sunday trading.

I think the shops should choose their own opening hours.

They are allowed to be open a certain number of hours a week. They choose which hours. Or they are allowed to be open 6 days a week within certain hours, and they choose which 6 days. Mandatory Sunday closing is a relic of an outdated social system.

I think MT has hit the nail on the head here. Most of you are viewing this from a big city perspective, but the vast majority of Germans live in smaller towns. Here in Freising, the bulk of the stores are still privately owned. Allowing them to open whenever they want wouldn't "set them free" as one poster suggested, but do quite the reverse -- tie the owners down to their store even further and result in additional expenses.

Most stores in Freising close at 6pm on a weekday and 1pm on a Saturday. This is replicated in towns and villages throughout Germany. What is the point of extending permitted opening hours even further when the large majority of shops don't even use all the hours they are currently allowed?

As has already been pointed out, the only stores that would extend their opening hours are the big chain stores, which would threaten the existence of the small shops that make Germany a refreshing change from the UK. I am very strongly opposed to extended shopping hours because I don't want to see all these small shops close down. If you want to be able to shop 24/7 in a clone supermarket, go live in Britain.

I don't know if it's true or not, but apparently the fines for doing business on Sunday even when you're not supposed to do so are not prohibitive for large businesses to pay.

I'm thinking here of IKEA. Occasionally they are open for business on Sundays, and someone told me they get away with it because they just pay the fines. They couldn't afford to do it every Sunday, but 3 times a year is manageable.

This no Sunday trading is a bloody pain in the arse for me and my business.

There's no way you I can quickly stock up on something if we run low after a particularly busy Saturday night.

It's an unneccessary hassle.

Stores are allowed to open on a certain number of Sundays a year, as determined by the local authority. We have Sunday opening here about twice a year and it's awful.

If shops are already deciding when they'll open, whats the point in loads of tax money being wasted on bods sitting about in some government office pissballing about arguing the toss and passing laws on it?

Quite frankly, its probably refreshing for men here that their birds cannot drag them off to bloody John Lewis to look at soft furnishings on a sunday. Still, that don't need no laws or regulations or nuffink, its just a matter of having some balls, and slapping your bitch about if she even suggests trying to screw up Sky Sports Super Sunday.

So to recap. Grow Balls. Slap bitch. Oooh yeah baby.

STB & MT, all the arguments you make can be made against having pubs and restaurants open on Sundays. Why then do you not protest their doing business on Sundays?

Stupid nanny state

I'm surprised they don't all collapse due to allowing them flexible trading hours. Same goes for small cafes and bars in the little towns who can choose to open on Sundays.

I propose we vote for a law that forces them all to close at current retail hours. You know, just incase they get competiton from bigger businesses nearby. It's for their own protection.

Oh and bakeries should not be allowed to have staff in baking bread in the early morning either. Large companies can have loads of staff coming in to do this at all hours and create competition, so we will need laws to 'protect' smaller bakeries from this potentially fatal practice.
And no taxi's on Sundays or evenings. It's not fair for the drivers who might have families, and anyway, who wants to sit in a taxi on a Sunday when everyone should be at the park kicking a ball around. If you want to sit in a taxi on a Sunday go to Britain.

Actually it's just courting trouble to allow anyone to try to do any business during evenings or Sundays. Clearly we are not thinking of the little people or taking competition into account.

that is fine for you, I aslo like to chill out on sundays, but then sometimes I think oh, I need something for cooking, or a last minute dinner invite, and you have nothing to take unless you stop at the Gas station for overpriced goods.
If the larger stores wanted to open for a few hours on Sunday that would be fine by me. I wouldn't be there every week, but I do enjoy that I would have the option. I come from a conservative part of Canada, where sunday shopping is restricted 12-17, and the shops cope with that, as do the residents. Not all the shops open, but most do.
I think it comes down to personal choice. If you don't want to shop then don't, but I believe the option should be there.

Darn right. I reckon there should also be laws in place that enforce massive monetary punishments for any bakery that actually becomes succesful and wants to expand.
Perhaps the law should state that bakeries should be protected from becoming successful by making sure that 80% of the bread they make is rock hard, black, and gross. Oh, hang on a minute...

Monks Town

I have never said there should be a totaly free market.

But the controls should be at a minimum not a maximum as in Germany.

..and by ensuring that the staff working there are rude

All restuarants should close after 6pm also, just in case a McDonalds or larger franchise with more staff opens up next door to a smaller one. And anyway, opening is just taking away people's family time.

I sent a friend of mine to the supermarket recently as I needed some stuff and couldn't get there myself.
He was shocked at the expereience and the rude and incompetent staff and told me all about it last night.

The store was:

A Tesco in London!

Absolutely agree with Monkstown on this one. There have been a number of articles in the UKs press about how the high streets in the towns in the UK are becoming indistinguishable from each other. The big businesses will force the smaller, family business to the wall or just buy them up. Freising (a town smaller than where I lived in Aylesbury) has more butchers and bakers but Aylesbury has 2 tesco, a sainsburys, a morrisons but they all sell similar lines of stuff.

Walmart, a few years back opened on Sunday when they were told they should not but said the amount of money they made made the fine worth paying. When they were taken to court the judge told them if they repeated it, he would revoke their trading licence immediately (not that it matters now) but they never opened on a Sunday again!

Simply because they are not under threat from large, out-of-town chain restaurants. And also because when you enter that line of work, you accept that you won't be working regular 9am-6pm hours. That said, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if all pubs and restaurants had to close on a Sunday.

Here you go, just to back up what Monkstown said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/poli...how/4076704.stm



I see pubs have come up too. Nothing like a Beefeater, Harvester, JD Wetherspoon in your local village to accentuate the centuries old character of the place

Canaryman, that says more about big city UK culture than trading hours. Excercise choice and don't shop at those places if you are unhappy with them.
The people should have the option to excercise choice, it should not be enforced by law.

edit. from your link. Did you read the last line of the article?
"Is it a Clone? ... or a Home? You decide."

I think any burst of large, clone shopping centres will cater to some, they are there because of demand, but many small 'homely' businesses will do just as well by offering something different, a more personal experience. In fact, maybe it'll be a boost for smaller traders as now they can offer something more unique. Like you say, many people don't want to go shopping at large malls or with crowds of people. Hooray for choice.

I still don't get the point about no restrictions "distorting the market". People will shop where they want for whatever the reasons, price, convenience, quality etc. If all the small shops dissapear and we are taken over by large multi-national chains, that will only have happened because people are using them more than the small shops.

but isn't the point that the "people" that make the majority in bavaria don't want longer or more flexible hours... accept democracy.

I do not agree. Aylesbury is hardly a big city but if you walked down the highstreet there you would not really be able to distinguish it from a highstreet in most other towns of a similar size (in so much as it has the same shops offering the same lines of products)

Take Wyevale for an example. Buy up 3 garden centres that are within 15 to 20 miles of each other. Close the 2 least profitable and then everyone is forced to either use the one that is left(and now charging extortinate prices) or drive a 60mile round trip to another non-Wyevale garden centre(and yep, they are open on Sundays too)

Yes, but the "people" who make the majority will not be retailers. Just because people have come to accept old traditional laws doesn't mean they are fair for everyone.
They could poll only retailers. I imagine then the results would be much different.

I'm not surprised how the voting turned out, I also don't think it was fair at all.