No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

As an unionist official in Germany who is representing his colleagues, you literally stop working. You get your own office and are allowed to spend most of your time on union issues (depending on the staff number you even get a secretary). Your job becomes almost irredeemable and even if you kill the boss or burn down the premises and they finally have a legal reason to get rid of you, you are still enttitled to a big compensation. If I had such a secured and comfortable position, due to the fact my colleagues voted for me, would I try to piss them off or make them feel unsecure? No, most likely not.

BIN-BLOODY-GO. At last, now you and others may drop the "what about the police, what about the army, what about nurses" argument. It is not valid and never was.

Nope, read the papers. The CSU voted for letting a few months pass and see how the other Bundesländer are doing and then decide on the issue, since Germany has not had 24/7 up to now. The only party voting clearly against the lenghtening was the SPD = unionists.

Nope.

These rules apply to Betriebsrat, SOME of whom stand for election on a union slate.
ALL are elcted from workforces by their colleagues on a 4 year basis.

You have to be in a LARGE company to get any staff representitives working full time at representing their colleagues.

It is very hard to fire someone while they are a Betriebsrat. That rule is in place to stop unscrupulous firms making it hard for them to represent the fellow workes interests.

Exactly, they decided NOT to change now but see the other states experiences, as I said about 20 pages back when Hazza claimed we needed a trial.

The 2 other states I saw mentioned in the taz were:

Berlin which I think now has 20 hour opening. Assembly majority? SPD & Linkspartei
Sachsen Anhalt which has 24 hour opening. Landtag majority? SPD & Linkspartei

Sure there is an an element of trade unioniszt opposition to further law changes, that's their right to do so.
But you are WRONG to say unions = SPD = no change.

What do you think the Betriebsrat is and where do you think they recruit their people? At least 80% of the Betriebsräten are member of the union and a Betriebsrat can be founded as soon as your company has 5 permanent employes who are allowed to vote (isn't really that much...). Of course you don't need that much time on union issues if you only got 5 people to represent and you are workin in some small joinery, but you do have the right to be guaranteed you can take the time you need to get your stuff done. The bigger the company gets the more work there is, the more people and decisions you have to care about and the managment is obliged to have you participating on all decisions - your job ends here, you now are a Betriebsrat. I'ld guess every Betriebsrat workin in a company over 25 employes can't really be doing his normal job anymore.

That's how it was, it is and always be in Germany! Experience taught me...

But you only have a four year term as a Betriebsrat. You might not be relected.

There IS the argument about people who work permenantly for a trade union.
That they become alienated from the work experience.
They are morelikely to be brokering a deal for their own position as much as in the ineterests of workers.
I said that several posts ago and has been been my opinion for years.

The situation with regard to shopping laws in Berlin and Sachsen-Anhalt proves this not to be the case.

One day the CSU won't have a majority in the Bavarian parliament too.

I am 100% sure that when you join the police force that that they will not tell you that you will only work on Sundays once a month...


That's not the point. The point is that they should have the option of opening. Whether I like their food and veges section is pretty irrelevant to this discussion, don't you think?


You're the one who makes the sweeping family generalisations. No reply from any of those in favour of Closing Sundays when I made the post about The Arc now closing on Sundays and showing your arguments up to the ridicule they deserve.

Just more and more bullshit...

That was show up the stupidity of your argument.

I am the one for Sunday trading, remember and letting people work on that day.

You are the one who thinks that retail needs a day off, but the occupations above don't. Just highlighting your inconsistencies...Remember??

Yes, as I said at the start of my scenario 'let's pretend'. It was an excercise to see how your arguments might appear to a regular Bavarian retailer. I made up a fairly mundane example to compare to all of the big drama's you assume would occur.
Also because most of the debate so far tends to fall back on the fact we are expats discussing this and ends up on tangents about the things you don't like about everyone elses countries.

Also, I didn't mean to say you are necessarily talking crap, just that you are talking about un-related things. (fast food restuarants, global branding, that crap).

The thread is slipping...

It's not slipping, it fell on it's face and displayed it's knickers ages ago. Now we're just pointing and laughing.

probably time too !!!

Surely threads on TT don't wear knickers but let it all hang out?

i suggest this thread close down and re-invent itself under a new name and niche market !!!

let's get to page 50 then stop though...

I suggest we just ban it on Sundays, Thursday afternoons and Tuesdays between 10am and 1.30pm.

how many more post to go, do ya reckon?

we could always introduce Sprechstunden !!!

I wonder if they read this is Furth-im-Wald?

*drum roll*

What do you do if you're a dirty stop out on a Saturday night and leave your knickers at a bloke's house?
Go commando all day? It's unfair I tell ye!

Not that I ever do that cos I spend the weekends with family innit.

what's the German for *drum roll* ??

This is taking longer than the queue in a UK branch of Tescos!

i would say it's on a par with Aldi, though I support smaller family run businesses myself

I must admit though I went off my local family butchers in GBV but that's another thread.

@ Hazza
how does it compare to the queues at IGA ?

Tesco don't serve warm pies like IGA though do they?

I'll have a Guinness Hazza thanks!

during this thread I have stoped buying my fags at Schleckers and have started going a few metres further to a local family business.

PAGE 50!!

Edit: D'oh.

ok, enough of this thread for me. way too much time spent here.

That'll be €3,90 thanks. I'll start pouring it...

*cough* Be careful of the dark side!

IGA in Australia is obviously better than in the UK, given your disdain for them!!

I noticed Hazza said that only one of his suppliers deliver on a Saturday. He therefore has to plan his purchases to meet demand. The question is if they could deliver on a Saturday and a Sunday would Hazza buy more. I think the answer would be no and therefore extra deliveries on these days is not sustainable. This is a bit like Sunday shopping. We have a limited amount of disposable income and we would just end up spending the money on Sunday and not other days.

One of the arguments Asda (Walmart) had in the recent discussions over further liberalisation of Sunday trading in the UK was that Sunday was becoming like every other day so therefore the hourly rate they pay their employees should be the same as every other day. Before the decision was made Tesco actually withdrew support for further liberalisation of Sunday trading because they decided to concentrate resources on the the upcoming Competition Commission investigation into the practices of the large supermarkets.

Interestingly, although the TUC (Trade Union Congress) have made a submission welcoming the investigation of non competitive practices of supermarkets on their members, USDAW (Union of Shop Distributive and Allied Workers) have come out in support of supermarkets especially Tesco. To me this reeks of duplicity especially as USDAW were the biggest opponent of Tesco in the row over Sunday trading and highlighted many of the uncompetitve practises of the company. It appears that both parties have come to an arrangement i.e. we will drop the call for more Sunday trading if you support us at the competition commission. Unfortunately the assertation that Unions work in the interests of their members is not strictly true. As well as having members in the big four supermakets USDAW has significant membership in the food manufacturing sector and in the distribution networks that deliver goods to shops. The investigation into the grocery trade is ongoing...

Again, I noticed nobody actually responded to my post about me closing on Sundays.

Let me change the example somewhat.

Let's say that instead of opening a bar, I had opened a Getränkemarkt and hired the same people I have now. It's entirely plausable as I would trust the staff I have now to run a shop like that.

So I would be forced to be shut on Sundays, despite the fact that neither I, nor my staff have families and unable to trade on a day which would probably be quite lucrative for that sort of shop - people going on picnics or BBQ's, wanting to have a few beers to watch football, etc (as it is, I sell quite a few take-aways on Sundays).

What possible benefit would I have by not being allowed to open??

Off the top of my head, so don't hold me to if if I've made a mistake.

USDAW signed a sweetheart deal with Tesco. Tesco would encourage all its staff to join USDAW and would in return only recognise USDAW as a union. USDAW leadership bent over backwards and allowed Tesco do what it liked with the staff.

The furious staff were trying to get such a "closed shop" declared illegal and many were leaving for the TGWU (Transport and General)

Actually, you're wrong there. There are plenty of times when we've had huge weekends and due to a lack of storage space cannot stock as much as we'd like. Come Sunday night, we have run low, or even started to run out of a couple of (less important) things.

I've used the emergency Saturday delivery a couple of times before and could have done with that service from other suppliers at various times.

Hazza does have a point but as always the case for relaxing Sunday trading legislation is based on the value of consumer choice and convenience. In principle I find nothing wrong with these values but the evidence suggests (and I have read some amount on this over the last week or so) that there are other values about the nature of society and the direction in which we want to see it develop, that should take precedence over the freedom of the minority to shop when they feel inclined.

So if you open your Getrankemarket I am sure you will have a flourishing Saturday trade without the extra costs of opening on a Sunday.

@ Monkstown

I am not sure about the "deal" but I am back in N.Ireland next week where I will probably have a heated discussion with my Uncle who used to be the head of USDAW there. Although I am quite sure that he would not have made any deals with Tesco.

That may well be the case Hazza but the service has to be viable for the supplier too and not just their customers.

It's not about what benefit YOU would obtain, but society at large. You've been barking on bringing in exceptions the whole time without looking at the whole picture. What's stopping your shop from being lucrative on a Saturday selling drinks to people who plan on having a picnic the next day?


Perhaps you should consider getting larger premises if it's such a problem.

@Ulysses
Get real. Who has jobs around here that benefit society? Hazza doesn't run a charity, he runs a business and it's his right and obligation to make it profitable - for himself and the people he employs. He should be allowed to choose when he wants to open it and adapt it himself to customer demand.

So what detriment is there to society?

And short note to admin - why close the thread? It's not getting overly abusive and I know the same points keep getting raised over and over again, but if people are still posting here, why close it?

That's the thing about this discussion. I just think that individual businesses should be able to choose when to operate. Those against Sunday trading always act as if businesses will somehow be forced to open at given times.


I missed this. You're harping on about how small business needs to be protected, and then you tell me that I should cover the cost of moving to a larger premises. Nice solution...

Anyway, I don't know why you're arguing this with such vehemence. When I saw you on the weekend, you told me that you didn't really care one way or the other. So why entrench yourself in the protectionists corner?? Or were you just lying to me?

When sunday trading started in the UK. Exsisting staff were protected so they did not have to work on sunday if they did not want to. this is still the case. New starters do have to work Sundays and they know this when they start.

When shops asked for volunteers from their exsisting staff to work Sundays they were overwhelmed with the responce. So it has never been a problem.

You see its all about freedom. Freedom to shop or not to shop. freedom to work or not to work.

Most people on this site want to dictate and have control, They dont believe in freedom, they want to impose their view and stop people having theirs. Some of the comments are so pathatic and are from an old fashioned view of the world.

What is realy concerning is that the rest of the world is moving on and leaving Ludite Germany and Europe behind .. all you appear to want to do is create a fortress Germany, thats fine but stop complaining about how the prosperity has gone from germany. It is due to these attitudes that germany is failing at home.

I am 100% sure that when you join the police force that that they will not tell you that you will only work on Sundays once a month...

Hooray, the penny has dropped, it has only taken 50 pages since I opened the subject for you to see the light!

So, not only do you ask for facts, get them but then ignore them but you also, somewhat hypocritically, expect people to respond to your "facts" (though they are never backed by links, official reports and are actually based on your opinion (as it appears that your opinion is the only thing that matters, as opposed to the majority and their democratically elected representatives!))