No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

No, I don't. Not in that industry. If it really is the end of the corner shop, they are slowly going to drop off, one by one. It won't cause the devastation to entire communities like closing the coal mines - where entire towns were out of work from one day to the next.

But I'm not saying it necessarily is the complete end - a few may well find a way to survive, but the shift away from these stores and towards supermarkets has already happened and of course it's going to result in many going out of business. That is inevitable.

Even the ice-man still exists to a degree - they now provide ice in bulk for parties and Gastronomie. They found the only possible way to survive in an age of compact refrigeration. But there are no more than a few in any city.

it's not a leftover trait, christianity is the basis of this local culture, many people practise it still. and many of the worlds religions also suggest a "day off" from the weekly routine.


old doesn't have to be bad. and change isn't necessary for the sake of it. and it's not just retail - a large proportion of the population who work in offices don't work on sundays either. and it would be nice if that too stayed that way.

On a cultural aspect, many do not want cultural differences. What they appear to want is to have a high st with the same old names, selling the same old stuff and an opportunity to land anywhere in the world and not actually know where they are, other than checking the airport signpost.

This gives them the confidence to know that they can go into town, have a Burger King, followed by swilling it down with a coffee from Starbucks and maybe eat their sweet in Dunkin Donuts. Still, visiting the local museum to see what life used to be like will suffice and they can go back to their various countries, explaining to anyone that will listen, as to how wonderful it was in Munich, London, Vienna, Budapest because Burger Kings tastes the same as right back home and guess what, yep you can even buy "Gant" in the centre of "Idontknowwhere"! Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I wish they allowed the little "épicier" to stay open later hours and on Sundays if they want, in Munich, the way they do here in Paris. It is good for the small shops here because it offers them an advantage over the larger shops and chains that close at 20:00 and on Sundays.

When I think about the possibility of returning to Munich and the pros and cons involved, the épicier openings here are a definate "pro" for Paris and con for Munich.

At the end of my street and over all actually, these small, but surprisingly well stocked epiciers have fresh produce, toilettries, household items, and normal foods and beverages. As well as wine, liquer, batteries, frozen food, etc..

it's heaven after six years of Saturday stress to get the shopping done.

And once again, Canaryman...this has nothing to do with Sunday trading.

Not one encouraging word from anyone who has fínally convinced me after 46 pages of trying...

btw, yes I realised it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. Just wondered if you find one individual who it might actually apply to.


Old isn't bad, but nor is it a reason to say something is good, as some seem to think.
Yes, I realise many people do not work on Sundays. That is the point, it hasn't changed the life of office workers for the worse, nor any other business, and it won't for retail either. People still have leisure days on Sundays, others who would like the work can work.
Frrrrreaky.

Yes, we know it's what they appear to want from your perspective. But you've already been shot down for spouting similar crap and already had many explain to you that's not what we're discussing and that you don't need to like generic brands in order to be for Sunday retail trade.
We are talking about Sunday retail trading, not fast food outlets.

BAN FUR!!

Just shouting "you are talking crap" is not an argument Marshbot.
Canaryman is discussing the "Clone Town" issue, a phenomena well noted in the UK to the extent that few can really deny it exists.

are the large stores forced by law to close at 8pm and on sundays? if so, that's still a form of protectionism to the benefit of small family run stores. perhaps a solution : convenience shopping on a sunday through sunday opening for small businesses only ?

Happens regardless of Sunday trading.

How many independent stores are left in central Munich?

As STB mentioned MANY pages ago, the situation in central Munich is different to tother parts of Bavaria.

Cheeky suggestion: Will you offer a free pint to the first poster to get this thread onto the 50th page?

sunday shopping has a knock on effect in so far as it creates a demand for ancillary services ... perhaps just a question of time before the impact hits the office worker!!!

To try and help some people past their prejudiced ideas against foreigners speaking about other communities, let's pretend we are going to explain your argument to an average Bavarian.

Say there's a local guy and to help your argument we'll assume he has children.
He might not, or they might be grown already and be looking for jobs, but to go with the forced-sunday-off theme we'll assume he has a couple of young children in need of attention.
We'll say he owns a little one person shop, perhaps a chemist (or whatever you want) and it's been in his family for a while.

So his shop is in an area that gets a fair amount of foot traffic on Sundays. Pretend he mused to you that there are so many more customers wandering about during the day on Sundays compared to during the week (when everyone is working the same hours) that he would have liked to trial opening Sunday afternoons, if the law allowed it.

You would sit down and tell him (with a straight face) that not only is it Bavarian tradition that being a retailer he must keep Sunday off for his family (and his protests about hiring the neighbours daughter or someone to man the shop fall on deaf ears) but you would also explain to him with equally dead-pan face that if he opened on a Sunday then all the dirty, alien Walmarts and big supermarkets would open too and complettely drown his business.

He would probably say something like, well, they are open the rest of the week and my shops been here for ages, I'm doing alright and wouldn't mind the extra days profits to be honest. (perhaps to buy his children something... no, we won't stretch the scenario too far.)

But you'd say; oh dearie me, no, no! Sorry, but by allowing bigger stores than yours to get a nose in on Sundays would result in them taking over the whole city! Haven't you ever been to the UK? If you open on Sundays this place will look just like any high street in the UK.
And anyway, you should be at the park with your kids. It doesn't matter if they want to go play at their friends house or do something else, Sunday is family day and that's the way it's always been. Be mindful of your culture, man, or you will lose it and before you know this will look just like London or New York. (Maybe you could wave your arms around a bit for effect.)

And then what? I guess he'd argue that women voting was not part of Bavarian culture once, nor were many things but contrary to some "inner-city urban expat" opinions towns will evolve without cloning into American or British copies, they still keep their identity and culture even when they adopt or discard similar laws, and not all new changes are bad once they are given some reasonable, rational thought.

Then you could retort by ranting about fast food outlets and what you like to do on weekends.

I'm the LAST one who says so called foreigners shouldn't argume about the communities where they live.

Could you tell us what they are, please?

Once again Timmeh, read the links and you will see it has everything to do with Sunday trading

Exactly and why do we have that issue. The big boys, that are the main ones pushing for extended opening on Sundays can further wipe-out the small fry and swallow up the high streets due to unfair competition.

The posters that are full of one liners like "you are talking crap" have either read the links I posted and do not like them as it shows my point of view to be correct, or dare not read them. It was one of the two but then again I was asked to show proof, I did (according to the links) whilst "you are talking crap" is easy to say and impossible to quantify (as per their lack of proof via any links)

to name a few ... policing, traffic wardens, logistics services, public transportation ... depends also on the nature & size of the retail outlet e.g. i would prefer that a big lorry does not pull up outside my apartment at 7am on a sunday morning to deliver fresh fruit & veg to the local supermarket!! luckily the law pretty much prevents that from happening as it is.

Well I admittedly don't go to surrounding regions much. Central locations are most lucrative for most chain stores. They want to reach the biggest possible market and don't care about the rest. I doubt very much that there are anywhere near as many, say, McDonalds out in the sticks as in the centre of town.

On the other hand, smaller businesses tend to open near where the owners live to cater for their local community. These places are never going to look like the 'high streets' of a major metropolis


No, probably not...

Excellent, so many assumptions and you are giving making you assumptions against the majority. Nice! We should bow down to your ASSUMPTIONS and go with the minority eh?

I can't see a huge expansion of the services that you mentioned. And these are all jobs where people work on Sundays anyway. Maybe you could explain how office workers will then eventually have to work on Sundays. They don't work on Saturdays now and Saturday trading has been around forever. I also doubt that there would be too many deliveries made on Sundays. At the moment we have Saturday trading, but companies that deliver wholesale are few and far between. That's my suppliers, anyway. So why would they refuse to make Saturday deliveries, but instead deliver Sundays?

How many assumptions have you made in your statements?

Like how we all have families here that we can hang out with, that we want Sunday trading to buy individual nails from Obi, that somehow High streets will suddenly transform into cloned shops, that minutes of a meeting of 6 individuals somehow counts as a general opinion, etc...

Dude... The church stuff is a load of hogwash. The US is probably one of the most religious countries in the world and both churches and malls do great business on Sundays...

EDIT: I am actually surprised to have seen that the most virulent proponents of Sunday shopping have been non-Americans, how truly refreshing.

Family, friends. My apologies for assuming that you have family or friends. Read the other links Hazza, though I think you have and do not like the picture they paint so you will ignore it, just like you are ignoring the majority of people in Bavaria that do not want Sunday shopping.

As you wanted fact and I gave you fact (that you choose to ignore) why not post up proof positive that the Majority of Bavarians want Sunday trading? (No, I do not mean asking a few students from developing countries but a cross section of the community)

Interesting point.

On the one hand religion here is quite bound into (Bavarian at least) government and the Catholic Church had some influence on this decision but Christianity in Europe seems less "in your face" than it does in US culture.

I just asked a French colleague and he said that you need a special permit to be opened on Sundays. So apparently it is not completely forbidden, it is just more regulated than opening during the rest of the week. Here though, all of the chain stores and large department stores choose to close on Sundays or perhaps, some have applied for a permit and it has been denied.

and yet, as "in your face" as it can be, even in the bible belt, you will not see a cross hanging up in a public school classroom. In Bavaria you will.

But if you go on the Champs Elysees big stores like Sephora, Virgin Megastore and Fnac are open, correct?

yeah, you're right. thats more people working on a sunday! the expansion may not be huge initially, but with time, more ancillary services may feel pressured to provide normal weekday services on a sunday too.
as for deliveries on a sunday, why not? the supermarket shelves need to be filled with fresh produce surely? that's lorry drivers, warehouse guys, trucks on the road ... and it concerns the office worker when the demand increases sufficiently to warrant him working on a sunday to coordinate logistics, buy, sell or do whatever! and if sunday shopping is gonna be such a hit and drive the economy as many suggest, the factory worker may end up working on a sunday too to provide us with the stuff we buy. oh i forgot, they will employ extra staff. or maybe just relocate east where it's cheaper. it won't impact the factory worker at all, he's on the dole and can't afford to go shopping anyway. I don't see anyone really benefit from this!

As far as I undertsand it, that is becasue Bavaria is refusing to bow to a court ruling from Karlsruhe that it is illegal.
So when Stoiber and Beckstein go on about "law and order" they are hypocrites.

I have family and friends. My family live a long way away and it's not so much assuming that I have friends that's the problem, but assuming that I must see them on Sundays.

The demographics is changing. People are getting married and having kids later - if at all. It is a significant proportion of the community that you are ignoring.

Then why not let the decision be taken at a more local level? Then if Munich residents want Sunday opening they can have it, and if the people elsewhere don't want it it they don't have it.

Some news! So who's actually the lucky one?!?!

Here my few cent:

I generally would say, let every shop owner decide when he wants to open, but I just beento the Emerald Isle and they have 24/7 shopping these days and it destroyed (at least for those living in travel distance to one of the igger cities, where the "centers" are) a few cultural habits: normally sundays you would go to mass (OK, not me but quite a few people did) and afterwards you'ld hit the pubs, where those like me, not going to mass, where already waiting for the others - only thing you could actually do on sundays was going to the pub and meet friends and family (or watch a dozen repeats of "Neighbours"...) These days sunday life takes place in shopping centers! Not that this is something bad, but's something one has got to get used to (didn't really deter me of still going to the pub ).

How about the idea of hour accounts? Standard shops are opened from 8:00 - 20:00 these days, six days a week (in rural areas maybe even less...)? Makes a total of 72h opening a week. 24/7 would mean 168h of opening time. Why not say shops who wanna keep the old opening times get on the hours they don't use, some kind of credit on their tax liability or maybe their insurance contributions, while those big chains who have no problem with opening 24/7 gonna have to pay a bit more to do so? Of course there should also be a key on the size of staff, since a small corner store owner shouldn't be punished for trying to make more money...

I know this sounds bureaucratic now, but if you would keep it down to about 3-4 different levels of taxation and one simple staff-number-key, it's something everyone can work out and no one get's forced out of the market.

I want shops to be opened longer, I hate it coming home and starring into an empty fridge, or having to push my way through tenthousands of people on saturdays for being ably to buy a pair of jeans - I wanna decide when I go shopping and not some trade-unionists, but I do understand the fear of people (and especially the little shop owners or those in rural areas close to main cities) that big chains are gonna take over everything.

Possibly yes.
I mentioned before there's a whole bunch of arguments about the realtionship of Munich with Bavaria.

But right now this has just changed from being a federal law to a state law.
It's not going to changce to being a city level law in the near future.

But all those extra people who will be working on Sundays are people who knew they would work then when they signed up to the job - like police or traffic wardens. So they are already in the habit of working Sundays and (presumably) ok with it.

Very little gets delivered on a Saturday - so why would they deliver on Sundays?

Trust me on that - I have 5 different companies delivering various food and drinks to my establishment. Only 1 will deliver on Saturdays - but only in emergency situations. So if they won't deliver on Saturdays, when shopping is allowed, what makes you think they'll deliver on Sundays?

As I already said, office workers already work only Monday to Friday, even though shops are open on Saturdays. So what makes you think that they'll have to work Sundays if they aren't currently working Saturdays? Same with factory workers...

Do office workers work on Sundays in the US, or Australia? No. But in Germany it's all fucking doom and gloom...

Grass roots members of trade unions are working men and women who have got together to defend the interests of the working class. If trade unionists shouldn't have any influenece, surely the lobby groups of the big retailers shouldn't either hey.

so, you want supermarkets to be open on sundays so they can sell us the not-so-fresh fruit & veg sitting on the shelves since Friday? sunday opening creates a demand for delivery services beyond current hours.
as for people currently working sundays, yes, they subscribed to working sundays, but are not necessarily willing to work more of them.

Trade unions defend their own, period. They leave everyone else, whether they're rich or poor out to dry.

I wish I could buy 'fresh' produce that has only sat on a supermarket's shelves for 2 days in Munich...

The big chains are gonna take over everything whether we have sunday trading or not. They all ready are taking over everything.

consider then buying your fruit & veg at a small grocery store or bio markt

You signed up for it - you live with it.

Depends who you are talking about, the grass roots or the union leadership.

Union leaders have to put the brakes on working class millitancy for the benefit of all the working class as it thretens their position to negotiate. For the leadership, yes, they are only interested in their own members.

I'm just saying let the people decide! The one group blocking the lenghtening of shop opening hours all over Germany for centuries was the unions and the SPD. You wouldn't imagine how much fighting and arguing about the the lengthening from 18:00 to 20:00 and the opening on saturdays there was (20? years ago)!

Those fuckers say no to everything which might have them or their buddies work under other terms than they are used to for the last 50 years. We're talking about German unionist and not American or English... German unions are worce than a occult sect - they say no to anything regarding work or money, since they are guaranteed their job and their income by the state anyhow - they are relicts of a time long gone.

Many inner Munich supermarkets have daily deliveries of fresh food as they have NO storage space.

You know, peole bitch that the stores in inner Munich sometimes sell out of (say) milk.
Then they bitch tht stuff is too long on the shelves.

For better or for worse, Bavaria has a majority CSU government.
And the CSU has decided for the moment to leave the law as it is.

The party that would be in favour of massive reform towards 24/7 of this law would be the FDP.
And they have how many seats in the Bavarian Parliament exactly?
Surely they will sweep the board next time if this is such an issue hey?


That is NOT true.

bollocks!! signing up to work say one sunday a month is not the same as working 2 sundays a month, sorry. why not just walk over the bastard and make him work just sundays instead?

i love it ... so, you want supermarkets to open on sundays so they can continue to sell you crap?

So the 60% are more insignificant than the 40%? I think that you are just ignoring the majority and all the links and assuming that you are correct and the majority are wrong.

Show me another poll that explicitly contradicts the aformentioned polls percentages. Show me the protests, by the majority of which you champion in Bavaria about the majority wanting Sunday shopping. Show me the official governmental and small business reports that contradicts the official reports that I have posted.

You cannot because you are basing your "assumptions" on your opinion rather than factual reports or polls.
You assume that the majority wish to have 24/7 and or Sunday opening (regardless of the detrimental social effects). Why is it ok for you to base your assumptions on your opinion but it is not ok for the naysayers to back up their opinions with facts from official governmental reports and the hard facts from those that actually make a living in the businesses present?