No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

Hazza. Here you go though I know you will ignore them

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/st...1810476,00.html

http://www.fsb.org.uk/news.asp?REC=3429

http://www.fsb.org.uk/news.asp?REC=3429

http://jobsadvice.guardian.co.uk/graduate/...1873645,00.html

lol ... excellent suggestions!! i prefer "core business" stores myself, I just hate going to a supposed supermarket to find it sell every possible non-grocery item but the grocery product you happen to have gone there for in the first place.
and, at this rate of change, a small family run business will have to re-invent itself too often, in order to protect itself from the big boys! i can see why many would give up!!

The Observer?! Tu quoque, Canaryman, fili mi...

By the way, there is a difference between safeguarding Sunday trading laws and allowing openings to begin with.

Heh heh, I certainly wouldn't expect canaryman to read anyting much to the left of a middle of the road liberal paper like The Observer.

The UK experience has proved this not to be the case.

shit, I wish i could have told my parents that before their business folded when B&Q came to town !!
many small family businesses fold because they don't have the capital to play around with this that or the other technique, hoping each will work & contribute to regaining their former market share. a small family business market share can be lost instantly as a result of a well publicised national tv media campaign by a big player. a different league entirely. flyers don't cut it, believe me!!

laugh if you like. i've ratteled out more suggestions about how a business can try to shift its niche commodity to knowledge than you have so far. and there's you with a (albe it sadley failed) retail business in the family!

alot of products go from niche to main. look at how household electrics has shifted from niche to a stack it high flog it cheap job. its a products lifecycle. the whole point of bio was based on an ethicaly value added transaction. i buy this and feel im doing something for the enviroment. that has gone from niche to mainstream. the music hall gave way to television. the theatre to cinema. some business models can be revived and modified. and some can not and will die. letters for example. everybody complains about post offices closing. yet communicate with e-mail!

@ gideon
sorry m8, I meant no disrespect to you !

did he offer anything more than what he was offering before the arrival of B&Q? answer me that? how did he intend to add tangiable value justifing a price premium (presumeing that price was not an option) lets not forget. a spade is a spade is a spade. your on a hiding to nowhere when you think you can compete with B&Q if your product is just the same.

Sainsburys and tesco already give out recipe leaflets innit.
Plus has already started the trend with an in house recipte magazine.

non taken. dealt with a fair few people in my time whose businesses are going down shit street.

Do I see NIMBY(ism) in the attached post

Not really - we are, but one of many bars in Munich that shows sports.

We get our share of the market because of a combination of that and other things.

And again, same question as from the beginning of the thread. What the fuck does any of that have to do with retail stores being allowed to open on Sundays. Do we have a problem with every business who is allowed to open on Sundays now?
It seems only the people who are for forced closure think that there is something wrong with every business. And one of them doesn't even work (never??), so no wonder some of these ideas are going off on huge tangents.
Do we know why all hell is going to break loose if retail stores are allowed to work like any other business or are we just picking holes in everything now.
Have we decided if this should apply to more days of the week rather than just the one yet?

the product lifecycle argument is fine in terms of electronics - pile em high and flog them cheap. however, I do get concerned where this view is held with regard to our food chain.
you'll find that many of products at the bio store are locally produced products, subject to strict quality controls. the bio at the supermarket has little regard for the local producer, he wants bio cheap and is prepared to fly it in from the far corners of this earth where lax regulations (if there even are any) will allow the product to classified as bio; and so the supermarket can offer the food, at a lower quality to traditional bio, at discount prices. the average consumer is still eating crap, albeit "bio", and pays a premium for it. the supermarket is on to a winner, the customer gets screwed ever. and there are environmental costs too, but who cares at discount prices!
in the meantime, the bio store is under pressure to diversify, re-invent itself, etc. etc. and some inevitably close.
for me, there is something instinctively wrong in handing over the control of our food chain to large multinational producers & chainstore supermarkets. they seek to monopolise the market and as a result we may soon miss the local & community dimension in the food chain, real knowledge of food and of course quality food at affordable prices. but more importantly, we are handing over perhaps way too much responsibility to multinational coorporations to fulfill our "instinctive" demand for food with nutrituous content. if the local element in the food chain ceases to exist, aren't we then dependant on the big players for our survival?

The other thing is that job types come and go over time as things change.

Iceman, bowmakers, fletchers, typists, executioners, Town cryers, Court Jesters and pretty much anyone involved in horses or carriages when they were still the main form of transport, to name a few. Libraries and thus librarians are probably on the way out too.

In their place, many new professions have sprung up, including the entire IT, car and airline industries.

Maybe time's just up for the corner grocery shop...

Now you are arguing "our" point. You have said that the small business will be fine and even benefit from a free for all. The factual reports that you asked for and I sent, stated to the contrary, now you appear to concede that the small businesses days are numbered.

I have yet to hear a good argument about why stores should be allowed to open 24/7 other than certain people want to be able to shop whenever they damn well please regardless of the impact. I will say it again, you don't like it then MOVE!
I don't want Munich to become London or New York. I don't want only 5 days a year vacation and I don't need to go to Walmart to buy a gun and a steak at 3am and I definitely don't want my corner store forced out of business by corporate greed.

Like I told the only one other person who said this on the thread. FUCK OFF! We are not talking about 24/7 we are talking about restricted sunday opening.
As people that have chosen or have to live here, pay taxes, but cannot vote, we have every, and I mean every right to bitch and moan about how backward it is here.
Like on so many other threads, where people moan about living here, and some ass always has to come along and say, 'then move'. Maybe that is not an option at the moment for some people.

Moving is always an option. It is a free world afterall.

That they have had in the UK for X years.
The results are to be seen.

Which is the big chains (alone) are pushing for MORE Sunday opening.

Read some of the links Canaryman posted up.

I didn't get home until 2030 today so dinner is something leftover from the fridge.
I feel SO opressed by the government.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/small-busines...2&in_page_id=10

As stated in this article Sunday trading will increase the closure of small businesses,as the monopoly of the supermarkets has already been proved because they have the finacial backing to be able to offset the losses of the stores with the many other stores until the competion has been eliminated.
Hazza you should be thankful that the shops are closed on Sundays as this could take your customers away from your bar spending the money that you would be getting and spending it in the stores that you want to be opened.

If the economy was all hunky dory and there was no unemployment then I see no reason why they should not have quaint old christian ideals about no work on Sundays. However...the economy is buggered and unemployment huge.

We know the Germans have lots of money, in fact they are the richest in Europe - but they don't like spending it at the moment. If they opened Sundays it would tempt the consumer out of his front door and get the economy rolling again at a cost of ZERO to the government - all the risk of opening would be handled by private firms.

So the upside of Sunday opening is possibly kick starting a buggered economy. The downside is putting some crappy corner shop under pressure "supposedly" when we all know their business is either viable or it ain't and if Sunday opening is the death blow then the business was weak and crap anyway.

That's the total "free" trade argument.
But even posters on here who pretty much support capitalisms have argued that not everything can be purely left to the market.

The effect of Sunday trading to a successful business puts your statement somewhat false, it also effects other businesses such as independant suppliers,its a knockon effect.

http://iccoventry.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news...-name_page.html

I still say that those in favor of 24/7 have yet to put forth a real argument for allowing it. It doesn't increase employment, it doesn't increase spending and it isn't a magic bullet. At best, it shifts employment, shifts spending and allows some people to shop when they damn well please. The positive and negative effects are fairly well documented and forecasted and it seems to me that the negative effects far outweigh any possible positve effect. Deregulation is not the way to go period.

I don't think that anyone is in favor of 24/7 shopping, I think that people are in favor of choice and I, for one, do not understand the scare-mongering when it comes to opening stores on Sunday.

We are also talking about convenience. One gets the feeling that one should be ashamed to have one's experience as a consumer be easier? As if complicated and inconvenient shopping experiences build moral fiber!?

The positive effects of extended opening hours are clear to everyone who is not muddled by fantasies about domineering welfare states over-regulating economies. More money is spent, more jobs are created, the economy is stimulated, prosperity is the end-result.

Prove it.

On that line, between a free market economy and a planned economy (*) there are choices to be made.
Some of those choices are objective. Some of those choices are subjective.
But there is no right and wrong.

You might call it "over regulating economies", others might call it keeping the wolves out of the sheep pen.

(*) Just to re-iterate, I think the planned economies of the ex Eastern Bloc were in their own way capitalist.

Uhm...This isn't macro economics. People spend more money because of improved convenience better adapted to the consumer. More jobs are created in order to cater to increased demand. The money spent by consumers and earned by the people who work helps to stimulate the economy, and as a result, prosperity is achieved.


OK, but how much more regulated could things be in Germany? There is so little flexibility here that I really wonder how much more rigid things could become!?...

Just do it.

No one complains about it in England it has just become normal.

It realy is no big deal.

With all the space in Germany i would develope some massive out of town shopping centres, it may cheer the germans up as boy do they need something.

It wont effect the towns and cities as everyone keeps telling us the Germans dont want it.

Do it and just watch what happens.

I think you will find that this says more about the British than it says about the advantages of opening on a Sunday. The Brits don't really think all that much, you know.


Classily put. However the point was valid. Sunday closing is part of German culture (in fact, of the culture of most of western Europe). If the Germans don't want it, who the hell are you to force it upon them?

Prove it already. Pull up the micro or whatever economics to back you up then. Just do it.

This is not about Christian ideals. It is about the one day of the week that people (other than those trades discussed that know they have to work Sundays as part of their job when they actually choose their job)can actually be guaranteed to have to themselves. It may have started as a Christian ideal but but is now a day of relaxation.

I am in total agreement with Eurovol and MT plus others that do not regard 24/7 and/or Sunday working as a magic bullet to solve all the economys ills or as one poster would have us believe, a day for the employees to socialise and meet potential marriage partners!

I don't regard 24/7 and/or Sunday working to solve everything either. I just think the convenience gained for everyone will far outweigh any "problem" that you keep bringing up. Maybe I was dreaming, but as I passed Lidl this morning on Landsbergerstrasse I'm sure they had a sign saying they open Sundays and holidays from 8-11 or something.

By the way, plenty of people already work on Sunday.

agreed, telling someone to piss off back home, though tempting at times, is a weak way to make a point in my opinion! however, not having sunday shopping here is just one of the things that makes munich different to the many places we come from originally. if munich were just like back home, would we have made the effort to pack our bags and relocate here? surely it's the diversity of another country, another culture, that motivates us to move here in the first place? and part of that culture is the sacred german Freizeit, where people spend sundays with family, go for a walk in the woods or mountains, a bike ride along the Isar, an afternoon in the Biergarten, whatever. shopping is not regarded as a Freizeit activity here, so let's enjoy and learn from the local culture, rather than attempt to make the place just like back home. it's not backward, it's just different.

it's been said before on this thread that people don't want sunday shopping because of their fear of change, maybe. but perhaps the most obvious example of the fear of change is the unhappy expat living in munich who seeks only to replicate what he knows from back home?

Funny, I did all those things (except the biergarten) when I was a child back in the UK, even though the shops were open. You really think that if the shops are open suddenly all the people who normally go out walking or riding bikes will instead spend their day in Hornbach or Edeka? And so what if they do? When I was a kid I used to love going to B&Q with my dad and helping him do some DIY at the weekend, what is so bad about that? And yes, if you come from the UK (where they relatively recently allowed limited Sunday opening) it does seem a backward idea to have shops closed on Sunday.

Personally, I think a lot of people in Bavaria will just say no to Sunday trading for religious reasons, they are trying to get you to follow their religion by forcing you to have a rest on Sunday. Bollocks to that I say, if people want to sell stuff and other people want to buy stuff on Sunday (which clearly they do), stopping them doing so is just stupid.

I have a feeling that Sunday closure exists because when asked to vote or give their opinion, people are voting that they don't like to shop on Sundays or they do like to shop and don't mind the shops being open.
What about the rest though?
There is another group of people who don't like to shop and yet still think retail should get the rights every other business has.

Why is everyone so blind to the other group, which thinks it should be a fair deal for everyone who wishes to work but doesn't care to go on Sunday shopping sprees. It's not one and the same thing.

I'd like to see the people who support forced closure on Sundays be able to converse without throwing out lines about being inner-city shopoholics or not enjoying Sundays with friends.
Stop thinking about the shopper and think about the people who need jobs for a change.


What? Who would force it on them? You already know other trades do not force their workers to work on a Sunday. What on earth gives you the idea retail would turn into slavery?
Don't get in a flap and carry on this threads theme so far, concocting extreme or far out scenarios for what should be an interesting discussion.

Retail stores closing is part of German culture??? Um hello. I don't think many Germans would consider forced closure of all retail stores important to their cultural identity. I guess it depends what you consider culturally important, but it's like saying that office workers finishing at around 6pm is part of their culture too. Well, technically, yes.. but would they care if everyone finished at a different time? No. Would they make a law about it to keep office workers all in at the same time? Cos it's their culture?

I think you'll find relaxing on a Sunday is what they hold dear, not whether Mrs Jones is selling buttons down the road or not.
And no, this is not Germany nor Western Europe specific.


Hooray. Finally you admit that other workers negotiate their hours first and retail just get it dictated to them.
"Guaranteed to have a day to themselves"... Well, that's one way of putting it.


I am in total agreement also.
In fact, I think we all pretty much agree. I don't remember the term magic bullet or anyone saying this would solve all the economys ills.
You are doing the same thing, using the most extreme idea you can think of to make the point sound ridiculous, when all we've asked is why you think retail should be forced to close when no other business has to.
Every reason you come up with so far could apply to ANY other business, so in the end we just come back to hearing about how some people like to shop on weekends, others want everyone in the park at the same time and some don't like large, generic brands.
All fascinating, but not the point.


If you are going to say things like that, you might as well be specific. Who are you referring to? I haven't seen one expat on here say they are unhappy and want it just like home.
Anyone want to own up to this? Anyone? Anyone?
I would say expats here are happy, they left home for a variety of reasons, and have likely travelled a bit and been able to experience more than one community. And now they are having a conversation about why they think locoals hang on to such an outdated tradition as forcing people who sell one thing to close while others who sell something else are allowed to open.
It's not that hard to figure out. If you want to whinge about expats not being happy here go start a new thread on that topic. It has nothing to do with this one.

no offence, but why isn't 'then move' a valid response to people who may persisently complain about living here, that do not appear to be forced to be so?

I can understand for people who have binding ties here such as family, they may be 'stuck' here. but what other reasons 'force' people to stay here despite disliking it so much?

OK - you've all convinced me. Sunday trading is bad.

As such I will now close my bar every Sunday to enable me to spend more time with my...uh...family? My staff will also have extra time with their...ummm...kids?

Additionally, I'll take the cut in my profit as I will be protecting the welfare of...ummm...small independent businesses and not...uh...driving them out of business??

Hang on???

Hazza, I never realised you were so cultural.

i'm not whingeing & my comment was not aimed at any individual. having just re-read it, i don't believe i gave that impression. perhaps my comment just touched a nerve - are you perhaps someone who seeks to replicate what you know from back home rather than learn to accept this different culture? i don't know you, so I am not making a judgement.
but you have judged the currrent opening hours as "outdated". whatever insight you have of a future & better world where retrospect tells you that current opening hours in germany are unnecessary or obsolete, please share.

You are one of the main beneficiaries.

You now have all that extra time to spend with your family...

Cool, cheers. I don't have a problem with taking weekends off to chill! Would you mind still paying me for them though? I kinda need money too.
Thanks!

No I'm not.

The point I'm making, is that either they need to innovate to survive, or if there is nothing they can do to survive (like the ice-man who had no answer to the invention of the fridge/freezer) we need to accept that the age of the corner grocer is over. Giving them a competitive advantage through legislation won't help in the long term, whilst ultimately hurting the consumer.

I`ll second that. We`re staying put and we`re gonna continue agitating for change - right here!

As the protesters out on the streets in East Berlin said in 89 just before the fall of the Wall: "Wir bleiben hier! Wir bleiben hier!"

Nope, the different culture is part of why I'm here.
I happily spend my money here while experiencing the culture, at coffee shops, bier gartens and museums among other things, and I even do that on Sundays!!!

Well, there's a whole thread about this if you are interested. But to re-cap, forcing someone to close on certain days because they sell a certain type of thing is a leftover trait from religious ideas and all other types of workers are allowed to make use of this day or spend time with their family when and how it suits them best.
Forcing people to take leisure time on a particular day of the week simply because of what they sell is an old law that is still around because it's...um, old.
Sunday trading works well in many other countries without bringing about all the doom, gloom, Walmarts and lack of culture that non-retailers are afraid of, and if these horrors are going to occur they will happen on Mondays, Thursdays and Saturdays regardless of everyone going to the park together on Sunday or not.

Except as many of them as could went west causing de-population in eastern Germany which was why the DDR built the Berlin Wall in the first place.

Hazza, if the days of the independent retailer are numbered long term do you not think that governments have the option to manage that decline?

Germany's coal and steel industries declined and that was better managed than in the UK for example.

I think that is the problem, he isn't

well I want shops to have the right to open 24/7 - including sundays if they wish. Forcing shops to close at 8pm and insisting that they all stay shut on snudays reeks of Gleichschaltung to me. And Im opposed to Gleichschaltung. I would also just like the freedom to decide for myself when I want to go shopping and not be told when I am to be allowed to.