No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

Then why bring it up? This thread is about Sunday trading. What does the murder rate have to do with it?

Where were we? Oh yes:

Nope, the retail unions are weak, the majority of opposition is from conservatives. Note, I mean traditional non-ideological conservatives, not the neo-liberal type which have dominated conservative political parties since the 1970s in the US & UK.

I was replying to stanford's post where he expressed doubt that there had been changes in UK society.

but surely thats dependant on your market? if you deal in general food commodities you have to be used to the fact that price is the desciding factor in peoples mind 80% of the time. and there is very little room for choice in that market apart from possible brand leaders plus own labeled. in order to compete of course a cooperative link up is neccesary, we all know bulk buying is cheaper. apart from in a pub that is. as to the choice thing, i seriously can not remember there being any more than there was before 1990 (which is roughly when the shop times changed isnt it - altzheimers) so either i wasnt aware of it because it wasnt a necessity to me nor important to the commodities i was buying or it didnt exsist.

small general food shops can only compete on convinience. and as most people here have only realy talked about convinience shopping (apart from some chicks who talked about shoes some while ago and then left shaking their heads and wondering why guys can spend hours arguing over shit) surley a relaxation of the rules while give small family owned stores a gretaer competative advantage.

get a niche. what ever it is convinience, speciality or price. but dont insist that protectionism is a level playing field.

1. Don't be in denial, unions in continental Europe still have political clout when it comes to these things.
2. Are you again only referring to Bavaria when you speak of "conservative" parties?
3. Both Democrats and Republicans are advocates of free-market economics.

this article about Sunday trading in Europe is quite interesting. Germany isn't the only European country with strict SUnday trading laws. it seems in Slovenia they tried it for 4 years then stopped after a public referendum showed most people were against it.

@Wheel,

I'm not so stupid nor daft to believe there hasn't been changes in the UK society including my tongue in cheek - 'Good old days' post. But a lot of this middle class pontificating about social break-up and how the other half live and the rise of the yob culture in a thread about Sunday trading is comical...

Slovenia didn't stop - just limited it to small shops.

Protectionism...

... pop along to most german supermarkets and you can see that nowadays they are selling a lot of non-grocery goods, it's where they make their money. clothing, riding gear, cds, garden furniture, bicycles etc etc. I have the impression that many supermarkets discover a "niche", bring out a heavily advertised special, and whoops, that has an impact on the small family business !! what is a niche market anymore? and how significantly do you expect a small traditional family run business to re-invent iteself ... bring in the consultants & project managers, and sideline into an alternative business for which the owners have no experience of training? it's also a question of cash, not just the ability to adapt.

But it is the reversal that you kept asking for but you seem to be ignoring it. Now you are ignoring the Poll, the DTI report and the press report so it is pointless giving you facts if you continue to ignore them in order for you to pUrsue your own agenda.

As I said, you are looking at it from your own perspective, which is fine, but it does not mean that anyone opposed to your view is wrong.

Slovenia is an example, fair enough. However the entire country has a population of 2M, that's smaller than some big European cities.

Go into a shop in the UK. The knives are under lock and key, you have to ask for the cabinet be opened to look at them. Off topic (maybe) but why is that?

It's not a full reversal. It is not to stop people shopping on Sundays so you can enjoy the day with your families - as is your argument. It is a form of protectionism as small businesses are still permitted to stay open.

So don't pretend that this is a victory for family Sunday - Nobody gave a shit about that when they repealed the law. It's a victory for protectionism.

but they gave the (majority) public what they wanted. isn't that the case in Munich too? aren't they also giving the (majority) public what they want (according to the poll)?

another article (also stating how some retailers are protesting at the ban) explaining the ban in more detail. the ban is for all shops so it seems but:


some similarities to the way it is in Germany then (althought the city/town centre shops opening is a lot more liberal) and here the stores may open for 4 Sundays a year IIRC.

IGA would be a start. Strength in numbers.

Show me the report that confirms that or is this just your opinion?

iga is a bloody tip. once was enough.

OK then, let's introduce Sunday trading and then have a vote 4 years later.

Maybe it would be rolled back so only small stores can open - but you can bet your life they wouldn't repeal it completely because of 'family day'.

People will realise that they will not be forced to go shopping and can still go for a walk in park...

From the article about Slovenia:


Brilliant! The public are displeased with themselves for not using the small independent retailers. I think it just goes to show what people say and what people actually do are not the same thing...

You ignore the fact that they can join forces and add strength.

It's always 'the poor little corner shops against the might of the evil chain stores'

So then fucking do something about it - strength in numbers...

We're just going to have to disagree. I think Bavaria is typical for Europe, you think opposition is more likely to be from the unions and/or left in general.

No, I said US & UK because I'm not sure of the make-up of the conservative party here - I imagine it's more traditionally conservative than neo-liberal like the Tories in the UK or Republicans in the US. The fact that they are opposing a relaxation of the rules supports this but I'm no expert.

That much I do know.

Cos there are a large portion of numpties that like to stab each other? What do I win? Back to the topic of sunday trading.

I find it funny that many arguing against sunday shopping are saying it will destroy the 'small' business. Well, I don't think so. I was taking the bus the other night home from Reim Arcade, and went down Ostpruessenstr in Bogenhausen, and its lined with small shops and mom and pop business. Yes, they were for the most part closed on friday at 7pm, and are only open on Saturday til 2 (if that), and they are all doing fine. I know some people from those shops, and they have their regulars and they are surviving. Now, Ostpreussenstr is only a 10min drive to Reim Arcade, or Feringastr (alot of big shops there) and 5 min drive to MediaMarkt and Toom. So, if they seem to survive, what makes all you opponants think that they will suddenly all die off if we extend shopping. They can compete now with Late saturday shopping, why shouldn't they be able to compete with Sunday shopping for restricted hours.

wrong these are often loss leaders. something small business agreed can not afford to do (unless they form a cooperaive and bulk buy in china). but there are other things they can do which require less initial capital investment.


if you think like that your destined to faliure. niches are simple. delivery, quality, avalability, afordability being just a few. others such as trend can also be thrown in. knowledge can also be a niche? you have a DIY shop? offer to go round and and visit your customers and give them in situ advice on a job or maybe put up that shelf for the lady. jep will cost you time. but time isnt allways money, well the bank cant forclose on you because you worked longer. get involved in teaching handicrafts at the shop etc etc. explore brand extensions of your core values its called or basicly expansion into new but related markets. im exhausted with ths whole notion that somehow small shops have deserved the right to exist just due to tradition and that somehow small is better. mr marcs and mr spencer started with a small stalls in leeds market. did they complain about bigger stores?


no just sit down and maybe read a few more business books and play with a few ideas, there are plenty of places where you can get free if not cheap help.

Carm.

Logic and common sense will get you nowhere on this thread...

Yep but people will be "forced" or "blackmailed" into working the Sunday until they can be replaced by cheaper labour, say for example, students.

When the chainstores first opened on Sunday in the UK, a lot of employees felt that they had no choice (work it or be replaced) and we have had an example of this happening in DE earlier on this thread. The store in question?...IKEA (suprise, suprise). Guess who is one of the leading voices in obtaining a 24/7 free for all...you will not win a prize if you are correct though.

You can bet your life IF the government said that only out of town shopping areas may be open you would be "squeaking up" as you would not benefit and may even lose a little of your business due to the hoardes of people that you claim wish to shop on Sunday leaving the city centre and going to the out of town location instead. They will partake of a drink and a meal nearer to where they are shopping and may even not bother going into Munich on Saturday as they can shop on Sunday! You may be lucky as the majority that do not want to change will still keep their patterns as before and pop into your establishment on the Saturday instead.

Are you basing your opinion of business on a bus trip whilst ignoring DTI, Governmental and social reports?

yeah, I guess I will just go back to work then... and yes, I do have to work late again tonight, and the stores will all be shut when I finish, but hey, there is always the tankstelle.

no, I know some of those shop owners, and they don't feel threatened, as they have regular customers.

Not a problem for me

See I have captured a niche market. If those little Bavarian bars out of town show the Football, the Rugby or the American Football on a Sunday (not bloody likely), then maybe.

Otherwise - no...

Also, a lot of my customers live not too far from the bar.

What better way to relax after along day out of town than to get a beer and a burger and watch the football.

I know my market and I cater for it. It's not rocket science

sorry mate, but if you're suggesting that small grocery stores rebrand into something like IGA, we are well and truly doomed. lowest quality produce packaged as discount label brands, not to mention the anonymous shopping experience. IGA is worse than Penny, worse than KwikSave back then in the UK. it is monoproduct for the masses! cheap & nasty. let's not turn our local convenience stores with fresh eggs from a reliable local farmer into an IGA selling gen-manipulated food from the other side of the continent!!

Which brings up the idea of "The Arc" franchises in all these shopping centers, to provide a decent amount of Football, Rugby, NFL, Cricket... and a burger+beer to all these poor souls stressed by shopping on sundays with the girlfrind/wife+kids!

But...it has allowed them to survive. And it is far from anonymous. In Australia, it is still the same people who run the stores as before. The fact that they are all independent is a selling point.

If we, as a community actually gave a shit about what corner shops sold, then we'd shop there and there'd be no problem. But generally people don't. You can't force them to. Obviously people want to buy gen-manipulated food from the other side of the continent as opposed to fresh eggs - or they wouldn't be buying it.

Bio stores have covered this option for thos who want it. They are an example of small business that has found it's niche market and won't be affected by Sunday trading.

ah!! but the local farmer now sells directly to the public using the farmers market set up. more profits to the producer without him being fleeced by non productive small family business owners.

Is that only retail or all businesses?
Will they really do that, then? shit, I didn't know that.
OK well then we should definitely fight to keep the ban in place. Do you think anyone ever feels 'forced' or 'blackmailed' into working Saturdays? We should ban that too.

Come to think of it, I feel 'forced' and 'blackmailed' into working full stop. There's this whole "if you don't work, you won't earn any money and will go hungry, bla bla". Total blackmail. What bastards.
Ban work!!
Ban jobs!!
For the better of all and in the name of quiet days with the family. (hungry days, but quiet days nonetheless).
Hooray!!!

As the elders often say: "We didn't have much these days... but we were happy to have each other." - Heart-warming, isn't it?

really? i asked earlier what a niche market is ? now, have you been to Plus lately and seen the BioBio range and I believe Aldi and the others are now also capturing this "niche market" with their range or organic goods. just a matter of time before many bio stores close as the big players capture a bigger slice of their market! so, how should the bio stores now re-invent themselves?

What's the bio range in Plus, compared to a Bio supermarket?

It's like suggesting the Asian supermarkets close because Pennymarkt sell soy sauce and spring rolls...

Yeah, Plus not only has BioBio, they also have now VivaVital which if one ignores the VERY annoying Ossi poof popular flamboyant entertainer fronting it is an interesting range. Ready made salads, ready made soups in exotic directions, value added products with an emphasis on healthier lifesyles. They are out to grab a share of the independent deli market.


Expanding. Rapidly.
Already in fruit, veg, fresh meat, eggs, cooked meats, ALL kinds of dairy, bread, pasta. Fruit juices.

... it's an ever increasing range of organic produce. more importantly, it's backed with with a $$$ media campaign that many local bio stores can't afford. it's taking a slice of the supposedly "niche" bio pie, that's for sure.

Have you ever been in a real bio-store? Can't compare it with Penny, Aldi, Lidl, Tengelmann... whatever normal store!

almost daily, except sunday, that is :-)
I did not say they were comparible ... I said they are taking a slice of the "niche market" ... lets's see how big a bite they take.

I do not work. You are correct...ban work!!! Hooray!!!

No - I stand by my claim.

The variety of a Bio supermaket will never be in Plus.

I want Sunday opening of all larger stores, would make my life easier, and that is all that matters. Fuck the students who would have to work, I had to work on a sunday when I was a student!

Not much - probably as much as a department store with a small book section takes off Hugendubel

Use the Hazza solution. Show sports and employ students (that would bugger his niche market!)

good question that as i've noticed the creep of bio into aldi. and it may be the case that they'll go tits up. or only the large bio-chains such as landsmanns survive. diversity and choice though are still much better than in many shops and this combnied with an inherent mistrust of aldi amongst many people will help them survive.
they should look into simple fair trade cotton clothing though and other non-peruvian articles alittle bit more. i would also like to see them starting to push there wares and its usage further. recipie cards, seasonal regional food demonstrations would be good, as i personaly feel we've lost our sence of seasonal foods, and home delivery (of course on a bike) would be good. no catch fish is also a viable list adder.

(gräfelfing has three bio-super markets buy the way! not bad for 2000 souls, so the market must be there. still)

again your not using your brain. if a small local store cannot aford a ream of paper and to spend the time to come up with some interesting seasonal produce ideas and print that out and post it in people letter boxes then its their own fault. marketing doesnt mean big bucks. it means brains. and the most effective marketing is word of mouth and personal reccomendation.

ream of paper - 3 euros
time to sit down and search out recipies write about and print it out - a weekend
custommer interest and brand awareness - priceless