No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

Oh puh-leaze... There is nothing worse than shopping on Saturdays. If stores were open on Sundays things would be a lot more balanced overall as the sixth day of the week wouldn't become practically as stressful as the five other ones.

I don't need anyone else to dictate to me how to balance my life. Thanks for caring, though.

jesus do they let you out on weekends or just release the straps a little and let you play with semi sharp objects?


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you know what happens when i come back. oscar asks me if the project went well. he understands what business means and that he has a right to demand my time when i am home. this i feel is a good lesson to teach your children. the world does not owe you a living, but if you show it you are willing to work it will provide you with one.


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whatever, i dont preach to you how to live your life as a single do i? yet you preach to carm how to do her job properly without even knowing how her market works.


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now your proving a distinct lack of perscription eyewear.
no i would love to be able to sit on my ass and do jack shit. duuhh. and anybody who knows me knows that i'd love to spend all my time with my kids. i would also like to be an astronaut, movie star and internationaly reknowned concert pianist. and now this is really going to bake your noodle. untill that happens im going to work at a job which pays the rent and sometimes gives me great satisfaction even when i have to work long hours. now where does that fit into your equation of the world. people may actualy enjoy working longer. shit that may mean they get more money, and that doesnt fit into this great big gleichmacherei which seems to happen here when it comes to competative trading.

I'm at least glad we're off the protectionist nonsense...

Why can't I buy heroin 24/7 at the hauptbahnhof?
The government is dictating to me.

This comparison is completely ridiculous. How can you compare the government not allowing you to buy hard drugs with regulating when you buy things that don't kill you, like a liter of milk!?

i agree. legalise all drugs. If people want to waste their lives getting addicted on shit, then let them.

trouble is though, drugs addicts plague society with crime and social security payments.

Sunday shoppers don't go around robbing people to fund their purchases.

What does that have to do with balancing my life?

The government can protect individuals from themselves or from others. However, the government should have no right to tell anyone when they should eat, sleep, take a dump or relax.

But they think that telling people when they can shop / when they can work retail has social benefits to which others have a right to.

Interestingly that deeply socialist UK government department the DTI seems to be reaching a similar conclusion.

tell me MT, how exactly will sunday shoppers plague society in the same way as drug addicts or other criminals?

No they are doing no such thing. Sunday trading is and will remain legal in England. They are merely trying to regulate the opening hours of large chains on Sundays. Small corner shops will not have their opening hours affected. It is an attempt to give them a competitive advantage over the larger businesses.

I have already spoken in depth as to why I don't agree with this - as well as a possible solution to making corner stores more competitive.

In Germany, not even the corner stores are allowed to be open...

Of course the situation in the UK is further advanced than in Germany in that they can open to an extent on Sundays. But the conclusions the DTI are reaching are similar to the ones here:

Doubtfull economic benefits, threats to independent traders, public not really behind it, Being pushed by the big chains only and opposed by small traders etc etc etc

And this is the fabulous UK, where CITY CENTRE chain stores close their doors at 1730!

I don't like it, big difference is, I am a trained professional, not everyone can do my job. A cashier at a Penny Markt takes no brains at all to scan products over a scanner. Anybody can do that job, and there is alot of unemployment here.
Friday night, I was coming home from shopping and at Arabellapark Ubahn/Bus Stop, the cops were there, rounding up the kids that sit there and bother the passangers. They sit there all afternoon, evening and weekend, being annoying and drinking. Now, if these kids had part time jobs, they wouldn't be hanging around bothering others would they? So using a breakdown of society is a poor excuse to stop extending shopping hours.

but the big chains are as they can afford the high rents at the airport or hbf.

You're assuming they want a job. And that someone is prepared to employ them.

Wow, this thread really is going off at tangents.

well, its obvious they need something to do. Why not a job? Oh, I forgot, that might break down the 'traditional family unit' as only papa should be the bread earner in the family.

why should they want a job. they all lived in families where dad came home early and retired at 55 and they never heard the word "hard graft" mentioned apart from when they had to walzt through 60 holiday catalouges. they are shown no example nor do they see any need because "papa staat" will pay.

If the public weren't behind it, then they wouldn't shop on Sundays and the shops would close of their own accord after a time.

Again - I have given my stance on independent traders on this issue. There are ways they can remain competitive. Expecting the government to protect you through creating an uneven playing field is not the way to do this. Don't get me wrong, I am all for punishing unfair practices, but certainly not competition where the rules are the same for everyone. If you can't compete on this level, then you should look at how you're running your business.

thats traditional middle class monied families carm. plenty of parents out there who curse the trend for modern central heating as it completely wipped out the market for child labour in the chimney cleaning sector and the related drop in earnings suffered.

Many will want a job. Again, nobody's forcing anyone to seek work. But young people often want a part time job for extra pocket money.

If nobody wants to employ them, it doesn't put them in a worse position than now, where nobody CAN employ them

Its not about bad business or good business hazza.
Its that structurally, these small shops can't compete if there was a "level playing field".

I don't think canals/railways is very helpful analogy becasue that was a change in technology.
I think railways/cars is.

"Anyone" can buy or run a car. Unless of course, you are very poor, elederly etc etc.
So some governments distort the "market" by trying to ensure at least minimal provision of public transport services against the interests of MrBMW and Mr Hochtief who wants more cars and roads.

There is nor direct correlation between jobs available or in this case, jobs potentially available and those who are long term unemployed. Is a 50 year old qualified industrial worker from Cottbus going to come and serve fucking muffins on a Sunday in a trendy Haidhausen bakers? No. He finds it hard even to move for a full time industrial job in Munich.

Well then, they need to create a structure to survive. People shopping habits have changed since the 1920's when corner shops were all that was around, and they need to address this.

Whether they form their own Independent Grocers Association, or have a different idea. But handing them a competitve advantage over their competition will never encourage them to run their businesses more efficiently.

nor is there a correlation between parents working long hours and deliquiency, but your lot seem to hark on about it quiet alot. ;-) i bet you would shop on a sunday too. but then you'd call it solidarity with the shop floor workers or some other marxist mumbo jumbo.

No - it's gonna be mainly students that cover these shifts. But they'll earn a little extra, which they'll then spend on their little luxuries and give the economy a little boost.

I'd contend that the extra shifts that could be created would be be filled by offering current workers ore shifts. From what I can see of my local stores there are NO students working in them right now and not all the posts are full time.

I don't know why you keeping banging on about this - no-one has advocated a planned economy on this thread. As we established yesterday, opposition to Sunday opening is as likely to be from conservatives as from the left.

Of course, extra shifts should be offered to current employees, but if they don't want to do them, then give them to someone who will.

Either way, it is giving people extra opportuinities.

Funny this is exactly how we ended up with Sunday opening anyway - the big stores worked out they could ignore the Sunday trading ban by paying a few fines, so they opened and about ten years later the law was changed because it was unenforceable. Sundays in the UK are now the same as most other days. I'm not sure most Brits would have voted for that outcome.

That would be a cultural change. I think in Germany (well some in Munich at least) might think themselves too good to work in PennerMarket. Supermarket work is seen as something that is "to be done" by older working class women. It is viewed somewhat above cleaning nd ths more German women in it or "higher grades" of foreigners.

but many small businesses are operating efficiently at the moment; they are providing some of the best service around and perhaps also some of the best quality products. i fear a move towards forcing small businesses to build cooperatives or associations is in the long term likely to make them much the same as a supermarket with mass produced monoproduct offerings and in turn perhaps making that cooperative/association vulnerable to a takeover by the big boys. thinking back to the uk, i remember many smaller corner shops were taken over by the likes of Spar ... and soon we had the same monotone offerings in all the corner stores, many of which now no longer exist.
what's this got to do with sunday shopping? well, if you don't protect the small family business, he just can't compete on a level playing field and many will go under. real choice & variety disappear and we end up lining the pockets of some multinational company or anonymous shareholder, rather than the man next store who feeds his family on our custom & loyalty.
you know, sometimes it's so ridiculous how humans behave. we pop off to the big national chainstore supermarket to buy fair trade products to aid the poor in far away africa so they don't get taken for a ride by the big multinationals; but when it comes to protecting the guy next store from the same aggressor, bugger him, bring on walmart!!

Point of Note:

Isn't a strange mix here against ANY relaxation of Sunday Trading...left wing and reactionary types bemoaning the consumerist society and worker exploitation and harking back to the days when Parents were parents and no yobs roamed the street...sounds suspiciously like the Daily Mail to me...same kind of nonsense was talked about with the relaxation of Pub opening hours, expanasion of TV (inc. Morning TV) in the 80s and the recent one...the world is going under...social fabric is being torn apart. I'm older enought to remember all the shite that was written then but alas taking Ulysses analysis it has turned Britain into a Yob society...

If you prefer Sunday trading...just say it but please spare us the psuedo-sociological and specious economic arguments...and no DTI studies please...You'll be telling us next that the Gov report(s) extolling the NHS new super computer benefits was correct as well...or how wonderful PFI is because government report say so...!!!

CanaryMan, Ulysses, Monkstown.

Feel free to visit me in Manchester and see how the other half lives...you can pop round to my Aunties on Sunday after she has been to church and then cooks for the family traditional Jamacian fair...we can even kick a footie around Alexander Park Moss-side!!!

Stanford..the British Yob...

PS. Can people remember when there was no morning TV and the BBC use to shut down mid-day for 3 hours...Boy were they the good old days...

It's totally different. The guys in Africa cannot help themelves, they have no support, no backup, they cannot change jobs or get government support.

The guy in the corner shop however needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Sooner the better.

Maybe because one of the biggest proponents of planned economies on TT is actively participating in this thread? Maybe because the biggest overall opponents to extended shopping hours politically are by and large parties which advocate heavy-handed government control on the economic market?


No. Bavaria is an exception in that both conservatives (Catholics) and Socialists, as usual, are opposed. Tell me what the Liberals say here and look at who the big players are who are fussing about Sunday openings all over Europe are: political parties that target economic freedom and trade unions.

You're right, it does, nevertheless there have been huge changes in the UK - for example - the murder rate doubled between the 1960s and the 1990s (see this report, p. 14). So there is some objective evidence.

To set the record straight:
I am NOT in favour of a bureaucratically planned economy a la Stalinsim.

I regard that as a version of capitalism anyway.
Thankyou.

so, what you are saying is that the small family business here does need support, and must rely on government support? is that support in the form of protectionism (no sunday opening) or support with Harz IV ?

I hope that was tongue in cheek!!! If that's the best you can do you either haven't studied statistics nor learnt about cause and effect. If not then I prepose that there is a link with Murders and Cars on the road (since they have both gone up since the 60s).

But alas consumerist society breeds death and destruction...then I ask you and your lot how does JAPAN fit into your model...

Not sure what what is worse crime itself of Middle Class or New Middle Class pontificating about how it is caused...

Of what? Increased crime rates? And? Relationship with Sunday shopping please?

@Stanford
An excellent example that I'll score as a direct hit! Why hasn't anyone mentioned them actually? Look at the Japanese. Filthy capitalist scum who buy anything as long as it's new and trendy. Let's see their crime statistics...

how can it be a level playing field if one side is protected?

They don't even try to be innovative.

Just run things as always - regardless of how outdated and expect the government to help them. I don't agree with that.

@ JW
I was replying to stanford's post. There is an argument to be made about social breakdown, but I'm not going to get into it.

simple JW dont be such a numptie. tut!

shops are open on sundays which means a murderer can easily buy knives and other weapons on impulse as apposed to having to wait till monday morning which they used to have to do before. bleedin obvious.

The murder rate in Germany decreased from the 1930's to the 1950's.

Obviously because of changes to some trading laws...

The problem is that it's never good enough. One hundred years ago everyone bitched that no one could afford anything except the rich. Now everyone can afford just about anything within reason (i.e. cars, TVs, a holiday), and it's no good either...

@ stanford
The murder rate has increased in the UK since the 1960s. I wasn't directly relating it to Sunday opening hours, but was replying to that part of your post where you made fun of Daily Mail types moaning about the good old days. In some ways they had a point, as the stats show.

I made a point with regard to your suggestion for innovation : i fear a move towards forcing small businesses to build cooperatives or associations is in the long term likely to make them much the same as a supermarket with mass produced monoproduct offerings and in turn perhaps making that cooperative/association vulnerable to a takeover by the big boys. thinking back to the uk, i remember many smaller corner shops were taken over by the likes of Spar ... and soon we had the same monotone offerings in all the corner stores, many of which now no longer exist.

Where did I say the murder rate had anything to do with Sunday trading? I didn't. Try reading the post.

This is another ball of wax altogether and I would argue that Europe has been on a very slow downward trend since the end of World War I, as a true middle class was formed and the economic "underclass" became smaller, but poorer and more marginalized at the same time. This still doesn't explain why Sunday shopping would worsen the situation.

Another one who hasn't read the post, or failed to understand it.

I hope that Wheel's post was a joke

[Edited again I'm not sure what Wheel's point is anymore!!!]

but in that spirits I follow on with some Daily Mail analysis of society - I wish to go back to the days when:

Pubs closed in the mid-day for 3 hours or were not open very long on Sundays.
When the TV - in particular the BBC switched off it's transmition between 2 and 4. All TV closed at 1 O'clock and there was no morning TV.
When the poor like on my estate - use to hire their TVs (complete with a meter) from COMET and paid fifty pence (per hour) to watch them.
When there was no Sunday Trading except for some small corner shops charging you shit loads for milk and sugar
When Games consoles weren't invented and the kids paid tiggy and hide and seek.
When the Internet wasn't invented and loads of TTers did not spent time away from their kids...

And the days when the local convenience store use to deliver Pop* to our door...

Oh I do miss those old days...society was some much more balanced and advanced...

* Pop is fizzy drinks for those that don't know.