No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

hurry up Monkstown the pub is calling times up hes gone and so am I.

Stanford, there is no contradiction in my position.

Some high streets are full of identical stores: "Clone Towns" is the term that has been used.
Some people, particualry in inner urban areas and remote estates don't hace access to shops.

It's 2 sides of the same coin:

I went to look for an article. It#s not directly related but an interesting read:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,...rticle_continue

The small corner shops are also required to be closed in Germany on Sundays, so they are not gaining the benefit of restricted trading that they get in the UK or Nova Scotia. Petrol stations and a few bakeries do not offer the variety of even small corner shops and are horribly overpriced. Edeka is a large chain and can open at the airport, whilst smaller shops in Freising or Eching cannot, so they are at an even greater disadvantage. Obviously, anyone who lives in the area who need to buy something on Sunday will go to the airport and take the business away from these smaller shops.

The IGA in Australia seems to be doing a good job and provide quite a bit of competition to Coles and Woolworths (the big 2 supermarkets in Australia). They compete with them on price, but their selling point is also that all the shops are independently owned and run by members of the community in which they stand. If the prices are good and the convenience is there, then people are happy to support them. They also give back to the community in the form of sponsoring local sporting teams and community events. Given that there are over 150 stores in NSW and the ACT and over 200 stores in Queensland, this is a success. There is no reason why this cannot work in Germany too.


This example is not a complete repealing of the law, as it still allows small businesses below a certain floor space to open. It is the community agreeing to give the small trader a competitive advantage. In Germany, no such advantage exists as all businesses, regardless of size are subject to the same opening hours. So I can't see how closing everything on Sunday can possibly be an advantage to smaller businesses (who are also shut at the time).


Preventing companies from engaging in unfair trading practices is a completely different issue, which has nothing at all to do with Sunday trading. Suppliers refusing to supply a business that they are trying to squeeze out of the market can happen regardless of whether businesses are allowed to open on Sundays or not and if this does occur, then it should be looked at by the relevent authorities. The bar business is slightly different anyway and there are many more factors than price involved in the popularity in this business - otherwise P1 would never attract anyone!!! I would be curious to see what a 'Super Arc' looked like in any case.

Again, I think that businesses should be innovative and not think they can rely on the government to put restrictions on their competitors to help them survive.

Nobody seems to have answered why it is ok for supermarkets and other retail outlets to open in the Hauptbahnhof and Airport yet not anywhere else. And don't tell me it because they are there to provide necessities for travellers. They have nothing to do with that anymore and have found a nice little loophole in the law to open and do business when others can't. It is obviously worthwhile them opening, otherwise they wouldn't, so there is obviously demand for sunday shopping from your average German. So where exactly is the logic in preventing others from trading?

In some of the previous posts on this thread.

I prefer being able to buy something whenever I want to buy it. Whether this is 2pm or 2am on a Monday or a Sunday. I am all for a "Free" market as are most people. Competition normally will lower price. Everyone is happy. Unfortunately many peoples views are blinded by their current need and do not realise what will happen in the future. Trends in other countries suggest closing of small stores and a very bad deal for workers. Germany´s one virtue may be that as most are vehemently opposed to large super stores they could have Sunday opening without the loss of small local shops and the community they ultimately support and bind together.

Why do you not believe that reason?

Why are they not there for the travellers? Who they open for then? Where's your logic gone!?

the point is that they found a loop hole in the system and are there for the travellers, but not only travelers use them. And all those shops are busy. They ask for no proof of travel, so, why then on the same principle are the regular shops not open?

It's the same with your downtown Amsterdam. They're open for the travellers or tourists. I think you'll find most laws have loopholes in them. It's the spirit in which it was made that counts though.

the 'shops' in Munich which open on Sundays are usually magazine stands, overpriced supermarkets at the train stations, gas-stations, bakeries and a few shops at the airport.

and the Müller at the Bahnhof, where does that fit in then?

Becasue they are exploiting a loophole in the law.
There is a REWE (?) supermarket in Regensburg Hbf that does the same.

If the trading standard people checked the shoppers there and could prove they weren't bona fide travellers then the store could be fined.

it's at Hauptbahnhof so comes under the 'travellers' rule' I guess.
notice none of the Müller shops in town are open!

Are there any actual supermarkets around Hauptbahnhof open on Sundays (other than the little dinky one)? I heard talk of the Hertie being open but haven't been down to see for myself yet.

No, no supermarkets are open.
Although the Edeka and Hertie are physically connected to the HBF they don't fall withing the loophole area.

Given that a wholsescale rebuilding og the Hbf is on the backburner for the minute, it might be interesting to see if some space could be found within the building to rent out as a supermarket...

The only supermarket that is open in the area is the Edeka at the Airport, I have gone there a few times, as I was away and needed stuff. For me its a 20 min Sbahn ride there or 10 min to city center to the Bahnhof.

So it's OK for these 'chains' to open (Edeka at the airport and Müller at the Hbf) but it's not OK for the small shops nearby to do the same.

How do the small shops of Freising and Eching possibly survive, when everyone can get to the Airport Edeka with a short drive?

come on Hazza, you know that all the people out there oppose Sunday shopping, as its a family day, so they would never go to the airport for a few things.

It's not difficult really Hazza. Why would I drive when I can walk? The small shops are welcome to open at the airport for reasons already mentioned. But they're not.

There's a bit of a difference between spending all day shopping and nipping in for a bit of milk and bread. The latter is not going to suddenly jumpstart any ailing economy.

It's a NORMA, irritatingly enough.

Anyway, carry on. Let's see if we can make it to 50 pages before the thread gets closed!

seen on its own no. the economy actualy isnt failing its just the internal market which is gloom and doom. what a relaxation of the rules would do though is set a sign. germany is open for business. germany has an infrastructure which allows others to give their best. at the moment it is just a phantasy image stuck together with sticky tape and pins. cant open unless your near an airport? wheres the logic. ahhh when people arrive back they may need some simple supplies. but if you work late in order to get some r&d or a pitch or business plan done do you not have the same needs and demands? what sign is that? that holidaers are more important than workers?

The whole point is that they don't want people working late. People should have the time during the week to go shopping and they certainly shouldn't be working on Saturdays as a rule. They're trying to keep a balance. How'd you like it if you had to work all week till late all the time and never saw your family? If you let business get away with it, they'll walk all over you and get exactly that because thats exactly what they want. But you'd rather criticise the trade unions and government who are trying to protect the small man in the street.

According to Monkstown, Mr Yuppie will go to Edeka and buy his whole week of shopping too.

Meanwhile the small shops in his home town of Freising are not even allowed to open...

Other labour laws protect workers from having to work too long and it's not a problem for other jobs in the 'leisure' industries that are allowed to open on Sundays.

It's not a mono though Hazza innit. Ulysses and Canraryman and myself have clashed swords on other topics in the past and may well do so in the future. It's give consideration to all the issues rather than the personal lifestyle wishes of a realtively small bunch of well to to inner city Municich expats who've read Adam Smith 101 off the back of a cornflakes packet.

Well, address it with MT then. I don't think he will. I don't think anyone does anything on Sunday unless they positively have to.


Exactly and where do you think those laws come from? Not the businesses. And I've explained everything to you at least twice now concerning "leisure" interests. You obviously refuse to budge your position because you have vested interests. You should try and be objective in your arguments and look at it from both sides and try and rise above petty interests and think about what would be good for us all, employers and employees alike.

done it often, the question for me isnt am i working late but what am i getting out of it for me personaly. that is at the end of the day my personal desicion. i seriously doubt you've ever had to put in hours i have on some projects, so if some little turkish geezer wants to open his shop for 24/7 to cater for people like me who are on the cutting edge of a project and cursing god for creating only seven days and giving them only 24 hours instead of the 42 i need, then that should be his own personal sacrifice and descision and one i will pay a premium for.

dont intend to insult anybody but if i do, realy not to bothered. but from my observations in all the years i've been here those who work lame 9 to 5 pen pushing jobs never see the need to allow people to self determine their working hours. others who dont do. its a simple fact. thats why you get comments like there are 6 days to shop and that should be enough? yes right like uhh?

The Bayern 3 poll that you all liked to quote so much said that 40% want Sunday trading. That is more than just a few inner city Munich expats...

So what's your point?

The laws exist, which prevents workers from being exploited in every other job done on a Sunday. Is retail going to be the only industry where it's ignored?

Yes, because they know that your children are going to be complete fuckups when they're older because they never saw their dad. There shouldn't be the opportunity for a turkish geezer to make money because people are working crazy hours due to lack of resources or bad planning. Why don't you get more people on the project? Might go a bit quicker then and you won't have to work as long hours. Would also go a damn sight further to reducing unemployment than opening the shops on Sundays.

Btw, you do insult people when you automatically assume that they know nothing about being a father because they've never been one or that they don't work the same hours as you. I suppose no one can have as hard a life as you. Sounds like you're really happy with your lot.

It's still the minority. Do you want a democracy or not?


Sorry mate, but if you haven't gotten my point by now then I may as well give up. Besides, read your post because it doesn't make sense. Retail will simply be joining the other trades in not being allowed to open up on Sunday.

Was a Radio Bayern 3 poll?
So skewed somewhat towards the younger population then?

bullshit. are sailors children fuckups? are the kids of oil rig workers fuckups? you have no idea of how some people have to live out there?


how can you know deeply and truely what it is like to be something you have never been? if you havent been a father how can you describe the emotional material and other sacrifices that are necessary? you may think you understand them but in all reality you just blind in the fog. how do i know? because everybody i know including myself admits to it after that fateful moment when junior pops his blood covered head out. its primevil and not rational or something you can sit down with and play hippie empathy games with. its also what inspires men to want to work hard. to provide for their families. which may be in the case of the shop keeper, the ability to captivate the late night market.

my kids sometimes dont get to see me all week. but i try to spend what time i can with them, teach them things take them to rugby take them skiing or just plain hang out. so get off mine and others cases and stop preaching to me about how i should do my family time etc etc if you have issues with your dad deal with them, dont try and mould my world to fit what yours possible lacked. i can give you the address of a few people if you like.

as for the rest of your posts you just prove you live in a protected enviroment and well away from commercial and real realities. which i expect you to recognise more so than family matters to be honest.

I work in a fucking dental office, our hours are 7am til 8pm (mon- wed) 7am- 6pm thurs, 7am- 6 friday, 8-3 saturday... now, those are just when patients are booked, that doesn't include the fact we have to clean up, enter treatments in the computer and make sure everything is sterilized (that takes at least 1.5 hours). So, most nights we get out late. Yes, we don't work everyday, but I am at the office personally everynight, and alot of saturdays.
We extended our hours due to demand from the patients. And quess what? Very few expats are in this office, they are all Germans, and tons of Bavarians from small towns. They like the idea we are opening later and saturdays... and they, from the talks I have had with them, would like to see more shops open later and on sundays, as alot of people do work later now, even the Bavarians.

I really don't think that you have a point. If the labor laws in place ensure that people are not exploited as you would suggest then there is no issue. This is not mid-19th century Britain and there is no evidence to lead one to believe that opening stores a few extra hours a week will turn back the clock.

@Carm
Telling it like it is. Great post.

but carm you shouldnt be doing that. you should only work 7.5 hours a day with a 45 minute lunch break and three 5 minutes coffe breaks. why because the law says so and in some peoples worlds money grows on trees, the rivers are flowing milk and retaurants give their meals away to anyone who smiles...

*skip dance sing, skip dance sing, skip dance sing*

I don't have to have been there to see what happened to people I knew who never saw their dads. Sure, one appreciates the fact that those dads broke their backs to make sure their children had as good an upbringing as they could, but if one could make sure that people could work and still have time for their children would that not be better?

So which do you prefer? Not seeing your kids for a whole week or being able to spend time with them? I don't have a problem thanks with my dad, but there you go off again on your nice, little pedestal. As for protected environment, yes, it is very nicely protected thank you. Thanks to that protection, if you ever are unemployed, your children will be taken care of. Isn't that nice. Beats a lot of the rest of the world. And who do you have to thank for that? Life is so hard Gideon. The worst part though is that you seem to want it that way.

So, do you like it? Working all these hours? What was that about "job burnout" again? Perhaps if those people didn't have to work all the time, you wouldn't have to work all the time and everyone would have time to get things when they should get done and be able to relax on a Sunday.

So the saving the small business argument has now been abandoned again for the family time bullshit.

Not everyone who needs a job is married with 2 kids.

There are more and more singles and childless couples in Germany. They care a lot less about having to have Sundays off.

Have you read anything on thise bloody thread? Have you seen what is happening in the UK? And in the US? Disaffected youths, crime, etc. Where do you think it's coming from? Admittedly, seen in isolation shopping hours are not the only culprit. But aggregate it with everything else and it is.

Yes, and why are there more and more? Are you trying to say that that is a good thing!? Let's just carry on then. Fuck having kids, fuck having families because there's just no time for it.

So tackle the real problems them. I reckon it's probably better that the youth have the option of a job on Sunday. It'd get them off the streets. What do you expect them to do all day if they can't work?

Well there is no Sunday trading in Germany at the moment - so that can't be the cause.

You tell me...

I have read the thread and not a single poster has been able to come up with evidence that shows that there is a relationship between extended shopping hours and the societal problems you mentioned.

As Hazza said, extended opening hours means more job openings, which means less youth on the street with more money to be able to buy the things they would like.

I'm sure someone mentioned it a few pages back JW.
That the "yob" culture of the UK is down to consumerism and resulting alienation.

Go play sport. Go fishing with the old man. Shit, there's more than enough things to do on a Sunday other than work.


If you'd read a few posts ago you'd see that it's not the only cause. Sunday trading will only make it worse.


If you're blind then I can't help you see.

Apart from the fact that I did not see the post, would love to see the source and completely disagree anyway, all you need to do to see consumerism is go to a Saturn on Saturday afternoon at OEZ. What are you going to do? Close shops on Saturdays too?

Guys... The planned economic systems which you aspire to have either failed by themselves everywhere, or been surpassed by prosperous free-market ones. Why do you want to continue shooting yourselves in the foot?

No, because a nice, relaxing Sunday is a good antidote to a hectic day's shopping on Saturday. It's all about balance.

It's nice to have a few more options too, I would think. As my dad always said; 'A bit of hard work never hurt anyone'


Students who would be working shouldn't be having kids at that age anyway...