No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

Lets see, I work til 8 2 days a week, and usually 7 2 days a week, so that is 4 evenings out to go shopping, so I have the choice of Friday nights or Saturdays, and if you ever really need to go shopping for clothes and try them on, saturday is not the day. OH, and in the new year, I have to work at least one saturday a month. So when the Fuck am I going to go shopping?

I see you use the word family in your post. According to Hazza family has nothing to do with shopping hours or flexibility. Your family do not matter. What matters is that people can be free to choose exactly what they want to do regardless of the effect that they have upon others.

All that matters is that all the shops are open 24/7 as there are lots of students that will willingly work for a pittance regardless of any social implications or that it may impinge on others rights or accepted way of life.

I like the way happiness comes straight after money and you twist a phrase from trainspotting around that makes fun of the very point you are trying to prove. Life on a treadmill, yeah, that's what he wanted. That's what we all want. That's happiness. Fucking shopping on a Sunday. So, once Sunday is open for shopping, how you going to create demand after that? Ever heard of "sustainable" growth? You obtain that through innovation, not bloody extending shopping hours! Do you really think being able to buy milk and bread on a Sunday is the panacea for the ills of the German economy?

@ ulysses, great response !!

The idea is that all the money we save by not shopping here we can use to fund shopping sprees in Canada when we visit home. As an added bonus we are doing our part to boost the Canadian economy instead of leaving our money in this deadweight country.

90% of the clothing I buy is on my vacations back home.

why don't you also use your vacation time to stay in germany and shop on a weekday when the stores are less full than a saturday? still no need for sunday opening. might also help this "deadweight" economy.

Because I happen to like my parents and try to see them as often as possible.

i'm not quite sure, but isn't the average annual leave here in germany just a bit more than in north america? extra annual leave days = extra shopping days mon to sat. still don't need sunday shopping.

Vacation time in Canada depends on your contract and how long you have been working for the company.

Are you really suggesting one should give up vacation time and a rare chance to see your family to shop? Especially when it's much easier (not to mention logical) to combine the two.

So would other people but due to work commitments they find it difficult. All concerned will find it even more difficult to meet up when the one day of the week that they are guaranteed to have off becomes a thing of the past. On the bright side, the economic geniuses here are purporting that Sunday shopping is the end of all of Germanys ills!

Boy do I know how you feel, that's exactly why I can't shop during the week. On the bright side with all the money I save, I can afford to fly home twice a year (Air Canada of course) to see my family.

Germany really does all it can to discourage me from spending my money here (what with 19% VAT , lousy customer service and inconvenient shopping hours) .
Oh well, Germany's loss is Canada's gain.

sorry didnt twist a phrase from trainspotting just listed a few basic points about retailing which some people here seem to have forgotten. and this will hurt.
retailling can not be innovative if its in a straight jacket of silly non consummer friendly opening times.

now if you want to seriously talk about retail innovation you'll accept the days of the small non niche store especialy within non foodstuffs are limited if not gone. they had their time. they didnt innovate. they didnt add value and they complained about the big boys opperating a cost efficient system, which is your job if you own a big chain isnt it. and just like the horse and cart, colonialism, and public flogging, fun while it lasted but not in keeping with modern life.

btw hardly a treadmill, but you knew better obviously, its called responsibilities we all have them, some more than others.

This is through the advent of the one stop shop supermarket. Corner shops have been in decline ever since.

Anyway, I couldn't really give a fuck if corner shops stay open or not. They aren't going to survive to service just a few elderly people anyway.


Young people are not gonna spend their time with their parents anyway, if they can help it.

So it's probably better if they work, than just hang around and be a nuisance on Sundays.

Also, have a look at what the corner shops of London use as their competitive advantage. It's not price or range of products.

It's opening hours.

By denying businesses a chance to open when they want, you are denying them the opportunity to gain a competitive advantage over some of the larger businesses.

The saving of money is an issue of my past and one that I no longer have to address but I know how you feel. Personally, I avoid going home to the UK like I would avoid the plague, it is far too fast paced for me.
Germany, I feel, does not offer the choice that I am used to but I live with it though I do complain about their customer service. I spend my money and pay my taxes here because I like it here. I could, if I so wished, move to pretty much anywhere at the drop of a hat but I like it here and my wife likes it here too.

Canada, well, I have been and purchased a Fiji rugby shirt in Hongcouver but did not purchase anything else as a lot of the shop assistants English was incomprehensible as they only seemed to speak Japanese fluently and could not understand what I actually said. Oh well, my spending power will stay in Germany which is Canada's loss

Check the DTI report and you will see that your statement is incorrect (well, it is according to the small shop owners that actually own and work in small shops, but hey, what do they know?)

not at all. i am saying that you probably benefit from more vacation time here in germany than the average person in north america, so finding time for shopping throughout the year with that extra vacation time should not be an issue.
BTW did the 24/7 mall and sunday shopping in north america come about because you guys had no choice but to shop on a sunday with so little annual leave, long, inflexible working hours and perhaps more than one job on the go?

What makes you come to the conclusion that I don't think family matters? What did I say to give you that impression? I never said that you MUST shop on a Sunday.

Anyway, if you think that people should have their Sundays off, then surely if you've ever done the following on a Sunday, then you are a hypocrite for making people work in non-essential jobs rather than have the day off:

Gone to the movies, watched TV, listened to the radio, taken a bus, tram, ferry or train, flown, taken a cab, gone to the zoo, gone to a theme park, visited a swimming pool, gone to the ice-skating rink, gone to church, sent your kids to Sunday school, visited a beach with a lifeguard, gone to a museum, eaten at a restaurant or ordered home delivery, gone to a bar, stayed in a hotel or a hostel (either Sat-Sun or Sun-Mon), watched professional sports, called a helpline, logged into a news website or read Monday's newspaper (which are printed on Sunday night), gone to the theatre, gone to a concert, camped in or even visited a national park (rangers have to be on duty for visitors), played golf or gone bowling. If you have ever driven your car on a Sunday, you are contributing to the fact that more police have to be on duty controlling the traffic.

So unless you have avoided all these activities on every Sunday, you can't really care that much if people have the day off or not.

I thought that by you stating that youngsters wished to hang out and not go out with their parents that you could not care less about the family. All the jobs you mentioned means that you are fully aware of the shift hours that you work, why not bring in the army, navy, airforce, priests, nuns, doctors.

I take it that you read the link to the DTI report and that you did not like the "facts" that are put in front of you.

What you have said is that the shops MUST open on a Sunday using freedom of rights as your battle colour. Why is another questions. As to what detriment is another question.

Read the DTI report and then maybe you can cherry pick the bits you like and post up

your so called "report" reads like the minutes of a meeting. It presents no hard facts, as you seem to imply, but simply the opinions of a select group of retailers opposed to sunday opening. It is neither representative of the opnions of the wider retailing community nor the consumers.

Have YOU actually read this report?

It appears that the smaller shops want the government to continue regulating the opening hours of larger shops so that they could not open at times on Sunday when the small shops are open. They are looking to maintain the competitive advantage of being able to open longer on Sundays in comparison to large supermarkets.

So Bayern 3 is not good enough and nor is the DTI report. If you want to post up the IKEA report and represent it as more factual than either the Bayern 3 or the DTI report then go ahead, though some may perceive that there may be, just may be a little bias in it

Armed services and doctors are essential services. Priests were included in the 'going to church'.


Yes, and it's the opinions of 6 small shop owners who want the government to continue to impose restrictions on opening hours to large chains so that they can open when the large chains can't to gain an advantage. So what? where's the news in that? It's no surprise that they want to maintain their Sunday opening advantage.


Where did I say they MUST open? Can you please find this? I have stated over and over again that they should be allowed to open. Big Difference.

Sorry for any offence caused

lets make a list of people who CAN work on sunday if they widh to and compare it to a list of people who aren't allowed to by law:

I'll start the ball rolling:

Can:
Doctors
Nurses
Public transport workers
Police
Airline employees
Restaurant and hotel employees
Employees of Petrol stations
Employees of Retail outlets in the Hauptbahnhof and Airport
Office workers (I CAN work if I want to)
Lorry drivers of certain perishable goods
Employees at cinemas
Employees at bowling rinks
Employees at skating rinks
Employees at bakeries

CAN'T:
Employees at General retail outlets.

Can someone explain the logic here please?

So Canaryman, ever feel pangs of guilt when you read the Monday newspaper, knowing that it was printed on Sunday night and that the people who worked on it couldn't spend time with grandpa? Or when you turn on the TV or radio and those poor people doing the programming can't be walking the dog? What about the poor concierge at the hotel you stay in on your holidays on Sunday? Poor man can't spend time with his kids because of you...

you forgot bar staff

Oh and I'm still waiting for someone to name one country that has repealed it's decision to open on Sundays because of the devastating social effects.

And all of the above expressed complete suprise at having to work shifts when the started the job.

I know how they felt, when I joined the military I had no idea that I may have to work shifts and even the Sunday...I resigned immediately. Now, the local pries could not believe that he actually worked Sunday. They did not tell him that until AFTER he took his vows...we were both so silly...Duhhhhh

And I for one, are waiting for you to read the DTI report (google and you will find more reports from Governemental bodies) and give your opinion.

Sorry but it does not appear to mention anything about opening for the benefit of students

@ canaryman, so your only counter argument is that it is ok in those areas cos the employees KNEW they had to work on sundays before taking the job? laugh a minute, you are.

Previous post:

But what if they took the job when they were single and able to do it, but many years later had a family?

How can they cope? Who will tuck in little Jimmy at night?

Oh, and if anything it would encourage the government to keep hours deregulated for small business

and how about employing NEW employees to work on sunday. AND telling them they can work on sunday before they sign on the dotted line?

Will that do? Can we now have the shops open, now that we have employees in the shops who knew that they might have to work on sundays?

Fuck shopping hours, I'm bored of it. Capitalism blah blah de pissball blah.


AAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHH. If there is one thing that capitalism is guilty of, its bullshit phrases leaving the sales offices, and entering into normal speak. I think we should raise an issue about the backward compatibility of promoting awareness of converging vertical markets, and perhaps brainstorm about the scope of a win win situation. We should think outside of the box, and try to benchmark some core competencies in a best of breed approach to the issue at hand.

Please carry on.

You forgot pushing the envelope...

mmm some real blue sky thinking going on there...

I'm seeing the synergistic effect of thinking outside the box.

How can retailing be innovative suddenly on a Sunday when it wasn't all week? Please read through my posts. I never once argued that smaller shops should be protected. I don't see how Sundays will change that either. My argument has always been from a social perspective, not an economic one.


So where would you classify me or yourself? Good, old' office clerics. Nice way of putting it, but you left out one huge swath of the population who works from 9 on a Monday to 5 on a Friday. If you look at every single one of those professions that "have" to work, they are either in "necessary" services such as the police or they are involved in the leisure and entertainment industry which, if they were closed on the weekend, wouldn't really make it worthwhile for us to work during the week so that we could relax on the weekends.


If you'd read my posts without your blinkers on, you would have understood that social effects take years sometimes to develop. You don't need to be a genius to see what has happened in America and the UK over the last 20 years. Governments are now desperately seeking measures to curb urban youth violence caused by estrangement from parents working all the time, etc. And say what you like, this has been blamed on consumerism. Extending shopping hours to Sunday too is only going to make it worse.

in answer, because availablity is one of the few ways retailers can realy innovate in order to supply their customers.

i know where your coming from. i just think the social argument is a load of tosh. i've heard it every time there has been a change in the law, be it the original 8pm change, the bakers on a sunday change etc. in each case i wonder just whos social perspective we're looking at? a few shop asistants who as in the case of the ikea example will get a cushy no stress day once in a while? christ i worked in a shop when i was a student. (but i smiled and laughed aand had a great time serving customers) its not that hard a job. in fact its piss easy and fun to be helping and serving people.

the same with the community crap. communities changed when the car became affordable. the centre of most barvarian villages are the sportsverein, trachtenverein, church and stammtisch which when mixed together is called frühschoppen. not the shop. and the whole uk argument doesnt hold water with me. my parents live in the country a 800 soul village. when they moved in you had to drive into town and stock up on goods as the shops would be shut by the time everybody go back from work. this was before the change in opening hours. now not only are the local shops flourishing but new shops are opening up! as people are happy not to have to drive 40 mins to go to a butchers.

post offices and banks are closing though, but that has nothing to do with trading laws.

I'm sorry Monkstown your ideological edge does get the better of you. What was it you said look down any high street in the UK you said [to prove the disasterous retail and social scene in inner city estates no doubt]!!!

Not sure where you hang-out in Bristol but many poor areas that include ethnic miniorities have excellent local shops staffed by Asians. They sell excellent exotic produce and of course hala meat which many Jamacians buy because they believe the meat to be superior. Moss Side for instance (in your world deprived)...has many local shops (two on the corner of Whalley Range) despite having a large Asda nearby. Also, my old stomping ground which was in North Manchester - Moston didn't have excellent produce shops but this has slowly changed as new immigrants have come into the area... I'm sure this would be repeated in Innercities of London, Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool and Leeds etc.

As for your old patch in Eastcote, on the shitty little high street there, I noted three Asain food newsagents that opened late and inc. Sundays...so when you and Cannaryman talk about the UK I wonder whose UK you are talking about...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_shopping

@Hazza

As you will see from the link Nova Scotia experimented with Sunday shopping and in a subsequent plebicite voted against it. Interesting to see the reaction of retail organistaions when the vote did not go their way.

But off course I posted this and numerous other links demonstrating the pros and cons of Sunday shopping two days ago and links on why several governments found it necessary to regulate retail activity, retail planning and so on, and uk government figures on the demise of corner shops etc etc

http://www.relationshipsfoundation.org/new...p?p=7&c=9&id=62
http://www.relationshipsfoundation.org/download.php?id=85

and now UK supermarkets are being probed because of their dominance and business practices which put small stores out of business

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4714572.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4788916.stm

Canaryman's DTI report may not carry the same weight as some of these other reports but it makes exactly the same point.

Maybe your opinion is so entrenched that you don't need to read this but we are hardly going to have a balanced debate if you do not read the links I post.

This isn't a question of consumerism it's a question of convenience (Oooh! shudder! How dare I ask for things to be easier!?) - we are talking about a few extra hours a week. The consumerism "approach" is just a storm-in-a-teacup smoke screen for people with a hidden agenda.

It's not like the people who can barely make ends meet but pack Saturn and buy the latest cell phones and flat-screen TVs have any trouble as it is.

I disagree, most laws are not what most people want, but rather what most people tolerate.

Slough, a very rank place BTW, now has shitloads of small shops catering for the massive influx of Polish peeps into the area.

This thread has been all good fun and games, but Mr Stanford has spoken the most amount of sense, hands down.

That was to stop large stores from opening. You will see from the link that small stores are still allowed to open. There is no blanket ban as there is in Germany.


Again, it is to stop only large shops from opening. This is not a blanket ban. And Canaryman's report which takes into account the opinion of 6 people really doesn't carry much weight - even though they were not concerned about their own businesses being open on Sundays, rather the competition from large shops.

Basically, all these small traders want the government to grant them a competitive advantage because they are unable to do that themselves. They need to diversify, or find a way to remain competitive. As far as I'm concerned, it's not up to the government to give one business an advantage over another through legislation.

In Australia, a lot of small traders got together to work together against the large supermarkets and formed the IGA (Independent Grocers of Australia). They now have their own cheap brand products and can order in greater bulk, reducing their overall costs and making their prices competitive once again and have pretty much become their own chain. This innovation has kept them alive.

I have no sympathy for a grocer stuck in the past who wonders why he's going under and refuses to change with the times to make his business more competitive. I certainly don't approve of the government helping a business like that by inconveniencing the rest of us.

Quote from one of your links:

Substitute "can" for "must", then you will be approaching the situation that the the "services" are in. You know the score before you join up (if you don't, then you are really dim). Thanks for the comparison though, it did "tickle" me

Firstly there is not a blanket ban, petrol stations and bakeries are still open and retail in areas that assist travel. Outside of that all retail is closed which I think is fairer. But several countires used the size cap method on Sundays for good reason to give smaller stores a chance to compete. Since Sunday trading laws on larger stores have been relaxed in the UK their percentage share of the market has risen from 55% to 89% (not a coincidence) and they have such a stranglehold on the supply chain that small stores cannot compete. Initiatives like the one in Australia where independents have banded together eg NISA (National Independent Supermarkets Association) have had little impact especially since the big four market share continues to grow and they have no qualms about using practises that will put the opposition out of business. I suppose that is why they have now been referred to the Competition Commission. As I said before I am all for a level playing field and competiton but the bigger companies play outside the rules which is why I have reservations about Sunday opening here.

Anyway you asked for an example of somewhere that had repealed Sunday trading and I provided one. My own feeling is that if a similar trial were held in Bavaria and followed by a plebicite the results might well surprise you. The resistance to change is not just about fear, which is sometimes well founded but about cultural differences and it appears at this point anyway that your average Bavarian is happy with the status quo.

But just a hypothetical question for you Hazza: if all your suppliers either stopped supplying you or charged you higher prices because a chain of Super Arcs opened in munich intent on putting you out of business. What would you do? You would probably fight the good fight but as you know customers are extremely fickle and price orientated. You might too find yourself in a canaryman position where the only option is to sell out. Innovation means nothing when the bottom line is always price and that is a sad reflection on us all.

Anyway speaking of pubs thats where I'm off too...

and do you know the unemployment rate in NS? Its high, they are fisherman, and cannot afford to shop, so there goes that theory!