No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

@ JW
For some reason you imagine the left has enormous influence in Europe so you took one of your habitual swipes at it. In this case you're wrong, the opposition in Bavaria is mostly down to conservativism. Not surprising, it's a conservative state.

I'll ignore the comment about the unions, but having lived in a country with Sunday opening, I prefer Sundays here. Not for ideological reasons, but because the streets are quiet and there's less stress.

but would they complain if they could? i think the word complain is wrong. how many people can hand on heart say they will not shop if on a sunday even if allowed? how many? we all go "oh bugger" i need milk and bread. (me last night grrrr) and dont give the do it on a saturday bollocks.

Depends on the horse trading in the CSU innit.
Stoiber might promise to use some of the slush funds we finance to repair the cow sheds in Oberfickenhausen and then their local Abgeordneter might vote for a law change.

Are you seriously suggesting that the low birthrate problem in Germany will be solved by Sunday shopping?

Sorry, but those, as in the UK are told that they have to work Sunday as a normal day or "go find another job" are having their rights infringed.

The one day a week that is currently guaranteed to be free to mix with family and friends will be taken away.

No - why must you misinterpret everything?? All I'm saying is that some people may actually get a social benefit out of working on Sundays - particularly students.

I did.

This discussion is about being able to at least buy the basics in the evenings and Sundays, not shopping for rare antiques!?
I'd rather have a "crap" student, pensioner or anyone else who is happy that he/she was given an employment opportunity that they wouldn't have gotten under normal circumstances than some toady civil servant type any day.


Isn't that fantastic? The consumer actually decides what and when he/she wants to purchase with his/her money!


Small shops are going down anyway, and though extended opening hours may not help your mom and pop local store survive, there is no evidence to say that it will kill them off definitively, and even if it did, it would be worth the trade-off with the extra employment which is created. I'd rather have two extra people unemployed, but be able to give ten others jobs.


Why will it change for them?

You would if it were you your favour. I am glad that we live in a democracy and the majority rule. When the majority ok Sunday trading then I will accept it. I will not like it but I will accept it.

i say ship in a whole bunch of Romanians and other people who actually WANT to work. They can earn good money serving those who wish to shop on sundays or evenings whilst those who neither wish to work nor shop can stay at home with the family. Win, win for everyone if you ask me.

Because the trend will be for stores to close in those areas.

If I as a consumer "choose" to spend my money on heroin, why is the government stopping me?
Becasue of rightly or wrongly the perceived social consequences.
Perhaps government intervention in that market also has negative consequences.
But that's where the DEBATE come in.

who can say for sure? perhaps 60% of them might.

"some" people (I note the use of "some" and not the "majority")

"I", well there you have it. I am arguing against a free for all with the backing of the majority whilst you are arguing for yourself and a minority. IMO.

Not necessarily. It is very easy to hire a student or someone just to fill in for a day.


If people buy more than they need on a Sunday, then maybe the increase in spending will give this economy a bit of a kick start.


Why not if they hire a student or someone otherwise un or underemployed to do the extra day?

but does it have to be sunday? for alot of people it isnt nor can it be. you expect a certain amount of service on sunday and get it. where are those peoples rights?

please answer me this. would you then never ever shop on a sunday? do you now never buy petrol nor visit a bar or restaurant on sunday? because by doing so you are denying these people the right to mix with family and friends. if you can say no i dont then i'll personaly accept that as true courage and faith in your convictions.

It was not a habitual swipe. Are you denying the influence of planned economics in post-war Europe?

How can you ignore my comment about unions considering the political power they wield? Maybe it's because they hypocritically protect their own while not caring in the least bit about those who aren't members of their little club.

The opposition in Bavaria is due to conservatism, however this is exceptional, and as I said before, the issue of extended shopping hours is debated all over Europe.


As if it's total chaos in places where stores are open on Sundays.

Extended Sunday trading blocked

The government has blocked a proposal by a group of big retailers to get Sunday opening hours extended. Ministers will announce that they see no reason to bow to the demands of a vociferous lobby led by Asda, B&Q and Ikea. A statement could come as early as next week. Senior Whitehall officials say the government originally supported the move but because there was no consensus among retailers it found it hard to make the case for a reform, which would have required legislation.

Analysis on behalf of the government found it difficult to quantify economic benefits and ministers are mindful in particular of protecting small shopkeepers and Asian traders, who would face business catastrophe if supermarkets could open longer hours. 'This is an extremely important victory for small shops,' said James Lowman, of the Association of Convenience Stores. 'We believe consumers don't want this measure and clearly there is welling political opposition. If Sunday trading was extended it would have been devastating for small shops.'

A motion opposing any change has been signed by 287 MPs, including 177 Labour members. Any change would have to be agreed by parliament and the government would be under pressure to allow a free vote where it would run the risk of defeat.

It backs up what MT and others have been saying with specific reference to the "big boys" leading the charge and flies in the face of what others have been claiming as to Sunday shopping has "no effect and may be beneficial to the small traders. Obviously, the UK government and association of small shop-keepers beg to differ!

But Monkstown is arguing that the majority of people will go and do their shopping on a Sunday, thus causing the local shop to close due to lack of business. Either the majority want to do shopping on Sunday or they don't, please decide which you think is the case!

OK - then I'll just say it benefits most people. Nobody else gives a shit about actually providing facts. So I'll just say in my opinion *most* people get a social benefit out of working on Sundays. There, happy?

You have also not said how buying a nail from Obi is so much worse than buying som Semmel from the bakery. So tell me - why is it so much worse?

And I'm still waiting for anyone to name me one place that has reversed deregulation of retail hours after it was found to have a detrimental effect on the society

we shopped in Ikea Eching during the Summer on a Sunday (bought our new kitchen) it was dead in there! we got chatting to the shop assistant who said she'd been forced to work that day too. she wasn't happy

Sorry but I sent you a DTI report. Was that not factual?

Goodness, if you want to debate my desire to buy a liter of milk on Sunday against the availability of hard drugs, I have to admit, that I am a little out of my depth.
@Moonboot
You can't base your entire opinion of Sunday shopping on one experience. In any case, if the place was empty it was easy money for the shop assistant, considering how hellish Saturdays are. Even if she was "forced" to work, she must've received some kind of compensation considering the labor laws which are in place here.

Hazza. Here is a DTI report for you. You may or may not regard it as factual, depending on how you wish to Sunday trading progress...

http://www.dti.gov.uk/files/file31608.pdf

No I am not.

Though of course it is a complex collection of arguments that might contradict each other.
It's not a cut and dried issue.

An example. A yuppie in Furth-im-Wald finds he's out of milk on a Sunday.
Local traders won't be open (becasue of limited local demand) so he jumps in his car and drives to the out of town shopping mall in (top of me head) Schwandorf or Regensburg. While there he doesn't just buy a litre of milk in the 24/7 Tengelmann's but a weeks shopping.

Old Mrs Müller who hasn't got a car and is on a limited income wants to buy milk Monday - Saturday.
But as a result of the changes, local availability of shopping decreases and prices rise.

don't be silly, my entire opionion is not based on this one experience, read my posts. it was an example in response to your post.

What's that got to do with Sunday opening in Bavaria?



If you've followed the debate, you'll have noticed that strong opposition comes from conservatives. Bavaria is not exceptional in this regard, it was the same in the UK.

Sunday opening generates an enormous amount of traffic in the UK as it is almost exclusively the out-of-town supermarkets which are open, so traffic volumes are high. It's noticeably different to fifteen years ago, or here.

Which report was that?

EDIT: Oh sorry - I still haven't read it

Anyway, I believe most of the people who work in retail also get a social benefit out of doing so. In Australia and the UK, it appears that most of those who work on Sunday are young people. 16-21 year olds want to hang out with other in their own age group (ie other employees) and don't want to go picnicing in the woods with their parents

Yes, but according to some on here, that does not happen, no-one is forced to work on a Sunday. Anyway, according to those that subscribe to the aforementioned point of view, the shop assistant can go and find another job which will leave a vacancy for, errrrrrrrrr, a student!

The one you said you would take a look at, though I guess you are too busy to take a look. It is quite an interesting read though.

sorry, you did an edit before my post.

There was a letter in that right wing liberal trash rag the Grauniad the other week from the NZ Minister for Agriculture. IIRC he said that the UK was producing more CO² emissions through "food miles" as a result of the trend towards out of town shopping than by food importation. Interesting thought.

Now compare petty crime rates, juvenile deliquency stats of DE and the UK. Now, that would be interesting.

There was a report about that the other day, the UK was tops for drinking, pregnancies, fighting and other mischief.

Good God, I agree with canaryman.

Tell me of any job where you are sometimes forced to work when you don't want to.

Whether leave gets denied because you are required in the office, or you have to work a day that is not normally your shift if you are a shift worker. It happens, that's life.

The only places you're guaranteed not to have to work on a Sunday in Germany is as a Beamter or in retail!!!

OK, but if 60% of people are like Mrs Mueller then there is no need to worry about the local shops... I don't think that is the case though.

Compare France (no Sunday shopping) with New Zealand...

was forced to work Saturday and Sunday last year and I'm a civil servant!
it's not a nice feeling

@ Wheel & Canaryman

spent the weekend in Blackpool, it was like walking onto the Trisha show. young pregnant girls pushing babies in prams smoking, gangs of lads in track suits and baseball caps, kids drinking and smoking on street corners, police cars zooming down the streets as far as the eye could see.

So it's *ONLY* retail then.

What's so special about them??

The chain stores draw off the most mobile and the most affluent shoppers.
The chain stores either leave the inner cities / estates and / or independent stores close down.

The poor, the elderly and single mothers then have lower access to shopping and the shopping they can acess comes at arealtively higher price.

The phenomena has been charted since AT LEAST the 1930s
It is Orwell's Road to Wigan Pier.

I remember my grandmother who lived in the town centre could no longer get to Sainsbury's becasue they moved from the High Street to an out of town retail park. Indeed I'm not sure you can do ANY food shopping on the high street there now apart from a bakers and that's in a town of 35 000 people!

This is a major cause of delinquency according to a radio piece about that report I mentioned. Parents and other family members are a moderating influence.

I'm not looking forward to going back at all but I will probably have to.

Hazza, I posted another link from the DTI a couple of posts ago. You asked for some facts about Sunday trading and the DTI gives them. What is your opinion on the report as opposed to the poll from Bayern 3 ?

By the way, if you want to compare the crime stats of New Zealand and France, why not compare the crime stats of the Outer Hebrides and Spain. I think comparing the crime stats of DE and the UK is reasonable given population etc.

Can UK crime statistics be correlated to extended shopping hours? I really don't think that they can.


Have you ever been to Saturn at OEZ on a Saturday afternoon?...

no your wrong, its some numptie father of two kids in gräfelfing. ie me yesterday.

I REPEAT AGAIN BECAUSE UNTIL I GET AN ANSWER I WILL PRESUME ALL WHO ARGUE DIFFERENTLY ARE LYING HYPOCRITICS.

QUESTION ONE

if the laws changed tomorrow. would you on principle refuse to shop on a sunday in whatever store even if you knew it was necessary, ie to not do so would be detremental to you?

QUESTION TWO

do you presently out of principle never on a sunday go to bars restaurants petrol stations are anywhere else where somebody is required to work on the garunteed day of family and friends rest and relaxation?

iwould do a poll but naaa
sorry had to shout as after 2o odd pages i think theres a few porkie pies being thrown around here.

Of course I would. That's why the government has decided to stop me because they believe it's not in my best interests. If the majority of the population disagrees with that, they'll vote them out.

Chain stores are normally cheaper, and if you've visited what used to be my local Tescos, you certainly wouldn't call them affluent or mobile shoppers.


What town is that? The town my mum lives in (13000 people) they just built another supermarket bang smack in the middle of the town (the other one is a crappy co-op). Actually, I have never lived in a town or city where there hasn't been a (busy) supermarket in the centre, I certainly wouldn't say it was unusual.

its one issue amongst many... and would never be a voting issue. lets be realistic about that. but it is linked into all the discussions about deregulation and kick starting the internal german economy in some fashion.

but the point for me is i dont see why a government should have the right to dictate this. if someone wants to work hard and long to get ahead then let them. if you work in retail it should be your choice to provide a service, which suprisingly is when you want to be there for the customers and you feel either you'll make a good profit or create custommer loyalty.

Yuppie?!? If you are gonna wrap your lefty spin on shit, do it properly, and refer to Mrs Müller as "good honest working class socialist Mrs Müller".

i find it so difficult to believe that so many people who want sunday opening fail to find the time or just lack the organisational skills to buy whatever they may possibly require on a Sunday during the other SIX days in the week. you can shop SIX days in seven. why oh why is it so necessary to have it ALL ? you can already shop on the net 24/7, why does it have to be more?
as for "democratic rights" and the "democratic choice" to go shopping on a sunday, surely then you could also insit that you should have the freedom of choice to go to the KVR at 3am on a Sunday morning to anmelden? isn't it perhaps more important that authorities, banks & services provide a better, quality & more flexible service during 6 days?
there are so so many complaints here in Toytown about poor service levels here in Germany, even in retail, that it is really quite ridiculous to demand yet more of the same old shit!!!

Unfortunately some of us work outside of central munich and have to commute 3 hours a day. I don't get home until 7:00 in the evening which leaves me just enough time to scramble to the supermarket and pick up a few bare essentials. If I need new clothing, the only time I have to shop is Saturday when the stores are so packed that finding a change room to try things on is practically impossible. I therefore do not shop. Period.

Good for my bank balance, bad for the German economy.

Evidently, it isn't that important for people to have Sunday as a shopping day then if it doesn't mean the government will be voted out. Deregulation is fine, but it shouldn't be a free-for-all since, as I've shown, regulation is also necessary. A balance needs to be found betweeb the pros and the cons.

And that's the problem. You have a youngster who wants to make it, doesn't have a family, can work till 10 every evening and on the weekends. Then you have a father with a family who can't work till 10 every evening and on the weekends unless he doesn't want to see his children grow up and perhaps witness his marriage breaking up. Who do you think the company is going to employ? Do you think they really care?

For those who don't know, I am the former, but at least, I'm thinking about the old man unlike others here on this thread who are only interested in defending their own interests.

Chain stores are certainly often cheaper.

German supermarket chains are often slagged becasue their stores in inner Munich are small.
But they are in the inner cities selling to the general population.

In inner city Munich there isn't much independent food retailing any more.
But I am in favour of planning restrictions on out of town builds to keep the chain retailers in the iner city.

Go to Aylesbury Tesco mate. One may purchase Krug champagne there at around 60 odd quid a bottle and people do buy it

Just in "case" (excuse the pun) you did not believe me...

http://www.tesco.com/winestore/controller...+per+Bottle%7c1

(though they seem to have dropped the line in Krug)

Ooooops., my mistake here it is

http://www.tesco.com/winestore/controller...asket&R=2111097

Note well..."item is currently out of stock", so by your musings, they must have drunk it themselves or they have poured it away

six? when can i go shopping with my family?

why should it be more. clue. retail. shops. customers. demand. supply. money. happiness. flexibility. impulse. forgetfulness. life.