No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

So then it's OK for some shops to be open on Sundays and not others?

How is that fair?

When I was young (between 16-21) I worked at a Museum as a guide. I used to work every Sunday morning from 9:30 - 13:30. I really enjoyed working then as the other 15-20 people who worked at that time were all around my age. I made many friends - some of whom are still my friends today.

One of the great things was that during work we often organised something for after work, as there were still a lot of hours in the day afterwards - whether it was going for a BBQ somewhere or catching a movie or going for a swim or whatever. If I didn't do this job, then my social life would have been far less interesting and I probably would not have done a lot of those things - sometimes it's too easy just to bum around at home. In addition to that, I would not have been able to afford to do a lot of the things we did.

Now I know I worked in a museum and that museums are open on Sundays in Germany, but I don't see why it wouldn't be similar working in retail.

If 15-20 young people work in a department store on a Sunday, then there's a good chance that some will get along. If the shops close early afternoon, it actually improves their social life as it's very easy to get together afterwards. Even if they have to work later in the day, then it's the perfect opportunity to arrange to meet up some other time. To say that families may suffer because they have to work on Sundays could be the case, but for a different demographic group, the opposite may be true.

So why concentrate the entire argument on the detriment to families? There are plenty of single people and a hell of a lot of students around whose lives are actually enriched by being able to work on Sundays and far from feeling exploited are grateful for the benefits that this work has. I did.

Not everyone has a family with kids - Germans included

Sorry - are you suggesting that we are advocating the breakdown of your family life?

I'm amazed that you still managed to have this get together with your family and taken the dog for a walk despite the fact that I went to a bakery today and bought bread rolls. It's incredible that your family survived my irresponsible actions...

Having a visited a bakery that was opened hardly constitutes irresponsibility. Have a look at the social fabric of the UK, Ulysses has already pointed this out. Are you comparing the opening of a few bakeries on a Sunday morning to having a free-for-all with all the shops open??

Johnny Norfolks post gave an insight into single people needing to go shopping as they have nothing else to do. Maybe this is the divide, single people could not careless about any form of family life and do not care how their attitude affects families. Maybe that is why they are single.

Having seen my previous post about what I and my friends did this Sunday, I find it incredible that the stores and bars (including yours) managed to survive our irresponsible action of having friends and family round and not going shopping or to the bar...

I like that the stores are closed on Sunday. Whether you support a state sanctioned day of rest or not, there is a noticeable difference in the pace of life in Germany on Sundays than there is in the US. I get frustrated that I can't get my grocery shopping done on a Sunday, but does it really cause a problem for me? I truly believe the government or the employer will try and take every allowance you give them to the extreme. While you were a younger man Hazza you worked on Sundays because it was your choice. There would be many employers that require their employees, who are no longer young, to work on Sundays in order to maintain their job. I like that in Germany the employees have more rights than in the US. Six weeks of vacations, weekends that are sacrosanct and limited hours. Does it make it a more profitable nation? Probably not and reduces its economic edge on the international level, but does it make it a nice place to live and work (excluding the 12% unemployment), yes. Save your Sundays for biergartens, hiking tours, family days in the park or a day to visit museums. Live life a bit slower.

I agree with brokenm. You can certainly notice a difference in the pace of life in the city on Sundays. There is noticeably less traffic, less rush, less tension, people are generally more relaxed. If that's the price to pay for not being able to shop Sundays, I'm willing to pay it.

And yet only retail should be protected? Every other trade it's OK to let the employers and employees negotiate what days will work for their business arrangement?


Most families still do this even when they work in other trades. You probably know many people who don't work in retail and still keep Sunday as a family day regardless.
People need to have relaxing family time, every other trade caters for this. There are plenty of people like me to work the weekends. A Tuesday snowboarding while there's no lift queues or a quiet week-day afternoon in the park suits me just fine. I feel sorry for everyone who only get Sundays off to relax when the parks are rammed. There's 7 days in a week and only retailers are forced by law to take their free time on a Sunday.
Why deny the option to retailers when anyone else can have the choice. Why should someone who makes their living from selling collectables or second hand goods have a law that says they can't sell to Sunday meanderers and close on Mondays & Tuesdays instead if that works out better for their lifestyle/family.

Because everyone likes going to a park on a Sunday they should be policed to do so also?

That's exactly what I'm pointing out; no one really cares. It's shameful. I guess it's hard for inner city expats like yourself who think everyone else should comply with your days off to empathise with.

You couldn't have visited many little retail shops yesterday, seeing as by law they were not actually allowed to be in their shops. I hope if you found one open you reported them immediately. They should have been out having an enforced-fun day.

Absolutely. As I mentioned way back on Page Whatever, laws exist to protect the stupid from themselves. You may have the intelligence and maturity not to aimlessly spend all your free time monging around shops randomly buying things with your credit card, but many people don't. I don't want Germany to become like America, where shopping is the nation's favourite pastime. That would just be tragic.

Yes, and is it pleasant? You've answered your own statement above about Germany being a "selfish" society. All the more reason to try and halt its development or reverse the negative side-effects.


Ever heard of "look before you leap" or discretion is the better part of valour"?


Agreed, but I think you will agree that the divide is getting bigger and bigger. No, Germany is not that much more "socialist" than the UK, but you will see that whilst the UK has largely accepted Blair's brand of socialism, Germany did not accept Schröder's which I would argue is fairly similar.


On its own it sounds great. So does "freedom of speech". But when a neo-nazi says he hates Jews or a Muslim uses hate speech, it's not alright anymore. Same goes for "freedom of choice". There will always be instances where it needs to be regulated.


You'll find that that is the very problem that the government is trying to remedy. That not enough people are opting for families. Why? Because they're selfish. It's more important to be able to go on lots of holidays and spend our money on expensive consumables than spend it on children's education, etc. With the population getting older and the demographic timebomb that it poses, I think you'll understand the concerns that the government has.


It's not only Sundays. "Normal" companies are also not allowed to make their employees work on Sundays. Everyone in my company has to get special permission to work weekends if they want to get paid. A lot of people do work on weekends, but ask them if they get paid for it and what would happen if an accident occured in the workplace.

Businesses such as pubs and restaurants, as I have stated before, are allowed to function on weekends because they are considered as catering for leisure activities. Retail per se is not a leisure activity. At least not for the majority of the population. And when you live in a democracy you accept what the majority wants.

I saw the report on different countries and family eating habits, and how England was last, and how that must mean that family eating habits are directly related to "social fabric". There is something in it for sure, but what the fuck it has to do with sundayopening hours is utterly beyond me. The report was not about sunday mealtimes, it was about ALL mealtimes. "Sunday Lunch" is much more of an institution in England than in Germany I reckon, and is perhaps the only meal familes eat together...but the shops are still open. The collapse of englsih mealtimes is related to the rise of the instant ready meal I think, nothing to do with sunday opening hours whatsoever. That post about different generations of a German family all eating together - very nice little picture of family bliss; would that really be threatened by shops being open? Really? I mean, Starbucks are allowed to peddle their scum products on a sunday, how come this idyllic family has not completely fallen apart, and sunday dinner been replaced by grandad not coming over, but by going out for a skinnytallmoccawanknobeerwhatsthepoint-achino? C'mon.

So people need protection against themselves buying shoes or postage stamps, but they can buy alcohol and get as drunk as they feel like on 'family' Sundays.
Interesting.


Yes. Think about the law first rather than just accepting it.


On it's own, talking about protecting Jews from neo-nazi's sounds great too. But it really has nothing to do with protecting people from shopping on a Sunday.


So, you want to ban going on holidays on Sundays too? What about Saturdays, surely that would help society all round then.


They have to get permission from your company. Not from the government.


Cleaning someone's house is not a leisure activity either. But cleaning companies aren't banned from working Sundays. I doubt people bake bread for leisure either, I would suggest that is how they make their living. Retail is unfairly singled out.


Not true, democracy is just as much about hearing every persons voice and having conversation about issues, not just accepting laws because they are there or don't bother you.

Yes, very interesting that a very large part of the population consider drinking to be a leisure activity.

It doesn't? I thought it was all about freedom of choice? Shouldn't a neo-nazi be free to choose whether he wants to give a Jewish guy a right real bollocksing or not? (please note I revile such behaviour)


No, it wouldn't. When do people go shopping then? To everything there is a time. The majority of the population go shopping on Saturdays. The majority also like to relax on Sundays.

No, it's from the government. It's called labour law.


Maybe that's because it's a little difficult cleaning when everyone else is working? Are sure about this in anycase?


Um, when you vote for a government, you discuss the partys' promises, etc. You have more than enough time to discuss issues. If they don't perform adequately, you can discuss it again and vote them out. In the meantime, it is that government's job to take the mandate given to them and act on it.

Yes, baking probably isn't very enjoyable. So isn't waitering perhaps. Perhaps Bavarians or Germans or whoever decided that they wanted fresh bread on Sunday mornings for their picnics aka lesísure activities?

Your "rights" stop where they start to infringe on others.

The "right" of Mr Karstadt to open his store on Marienplatz 24/7 infringes on the "right" of the population to try andkeep local retailing alive and have a form of society they are happy with.

It was you who wrote about your friends that:


Surely, it makes little difference to you whether I buy a nail or a few semmels.


In fact, in my post above where I talked about my experience with working Sundays and how that actually improved my social life. Well there were people who met at work - on Sundays and later got married. They would never have met their partners if they hadn't worked then.


Well you have finally addressed the issue and are now arguing my point!!

You are free to spend your Sundays with your family - skipping through the woods and frolicking on the beach (or whatever you want to do), whilst others are free to visit a bar or go shopping. Neither group infringes on the rights of the other.

Longer term it can be argued that the right to Sunday shopping impinges on the right to universally available shopping locally. I argued several pages back that the winners of greater liberalisation of liscensing laws has been large soulless city centre pubs at the expense of local community pubs in many cases.

Find me a woman who doesn't consider buying shoes a leisure activity.


How can you compare this to Sunday shopping?? You know that it's a ridiculous comparison.

What evidence do you have to back up this claim? Please post some links to studies done.

apparently if i remember correctly 1/3 of the workforce is up and about working on a sunday. be it the shift worker at bmw, or the policeman, or a barman, or a nurse or the guy putting together the news for you. alot of them have families, but the nature of their job dictates a slightly different rythym to the social cuddly furry 1950's rosey tinted middle class monied view of what a weekend is. my tounge is firmly in my cheek here btw.

for those who took the time to read the german press last week, stoiber and the whole cabinet voted for a change. stoiber has also said this isnt the last word on this. expect a three line whip (or what ever the bavarian varient is) on the next vote. they are realists, though sunday will probably remain for the mommet untouchable. but as they said, all other bundesländer will be looking to take barvarian euros if they dont change.

It's an opinion I personally have based on observation.

Not everyting is society is based on hard fact but subjective opinion, whether we like it or not.

But you present this 'opinion' like it's a fact. Surely if large, 'soulless' businesses are forcing out small independent traders at any level, because of Sunday trading, then it would not be just your observation. There would be some studies done and facts and figures to back up this claim.

So show us these facts.

Mmh, I wonder how many women there are who think of going shoe-shopping on a Sunday...


It's the principle, not the example itself. Same goes for my other examples. You and Marshbot keep on missing the "bigger" picture. If you nit-pick you will always find something. The exception proves the rule, etc...

oh fuck millions. combined with a prosecco brunch and a good natter.

I'm not sure if studies have been done tbh Hazza and i haven't got time to look.

I can see with my own eyes though how the pub scene is changing, both in Munich and in the UK.

Well, interesting maybe, but beautiful when you think about it. What I find interesting is that you think people need protection from the urge to go out and buy vacuum cleaner bags, tampons or simply take the kids to a toy store or pick up ingredients for a spontaneous Sunday roast with friends, and yet don't need any regulations on when they can head to a bar for a round of cocktails.


No, we are discussing the freedom of choice to open your store on a Sunday. Not freedom of choice to do whatever you please. I'm confident you can see the difference and are just twisting comments to suit your argument.


Right. So what are you so afraid of?


Can you explain this German labour law further? Does it specify that you can't run any business on a Sunday, or is it to protect people from working long hours no matter what day of the week? Did you report your co-workers who came in on a Sunday then?


Or perhaps no one is used to being told that according to tradition they can't have fresh bread on a Sundays. These laws were not formed on the basis that shopping isn't fun, therefore should be restricted.


Which in turn infringes on the right of Mrs Jones to open her button shop on Sunday's when there are more people about.
But no, you're right, she shouldn't infringe on your rights to force the shops to be shut.

So how do you know that other factors aren't involved?

Sunday openings are a huge success everywhere. Consumers enjoy the flexibility and spend. Employment is created. Money is earned by more people. Economy is stimulated. Fact.

Opposition to lengthened opening hours is just ideological and an offshoot of the biggest economic catastrophe of the 20th century: planned economies.

Yes, but Jules, allowing retailers to choose their own hours infringes on others right to go to the park with their family and know that somewhere in town people are NOT shopping at malls.

I think you can agree we all need this peace of mind enforced by law.

If sounday trading was so bad for society, then surely someone could come up with an example where a country has reverted back to banning Sunday trading after it had been introduced and found to have an adverse effect on that country.

Can anyone give me such an example?

Haha, well if so many people feel it is their right to shop locally, why on earth do you think a big chain store (or even Sunday trading) will stop them doing so? Either people want to shop locally or they don't, you can't argue both ways mate!

Wrong Jules. There's a lot more to it than that, as a read of the thread shows. Old-fashioned conservatives don't like it because of the damage to family life and the church. The left don't like it because of the impact on workers. Ideology comes a long way behind.

I was just thinking. How come priests work on a sunday? Bit fucking blasphemous innit.

those on the forum in favour of Sunday trading are trying to convince the wrong people it's a good idea. they should be out there trying to convince the 60% in favour of the way it is now without Sunday trading. they'll be the ones voting next time there's a vote on it.

Becasue local stores will close as a result.
A look down any UK high street will show you that.

Marshbot, yes, rights can conflict with each other.
Which is why society tries to find a compromise.
Shops opening to 20:00, six days a week is the current compromise in Bavaria.

Nah, we just wait for them to die, will be much quicker.

Have you been outside recently? It's bloody cold and miserable. I'm not going outside to do that - easier just to start here!

Where is your evidence that this is due to Sunday trading and not other factors?

Only because nobody wants to use them once there is a better alternative. Hence this "right" to shop locally is total bollocks that nobody really wants.

I think small shops are closing because they cannot compete with larger chains on price or choice.

Even in Germany, I buy all my groceries at Tengelmann or Plus - even though they aren't open on Sundays.

Hazza is spot on man, thats nowt to do with sundeee hours.
Now, if the supermarkets here were actually any good, rather than completely rubbish,that might damage small local stores. We should start a thread about how crap supermarkets are in Germany. That would be awesome.

@Wheel
Well? What you are referring to is still ideological opposition, there is no statistical evidence that shows that depression, divorce, suicide or whatever rates are higher in countries that have Sunday openings, is there?
Religious influence maybe stronger in Bavaria than elsewhere, however the same arguments such as impact on family life are used all over Europe - as I am sure you know this issue is hotly debated everywhere. Speaking of Catholicism, go to Italy and you will find that in almost every town now, and not just big cities, basic stores like supermarkets are open.

By "left", I think you meant to say trade unions , which want to make the labor market as uncompetitive as possible in order to protect their members. Who cares about all the people who would benefit from new employment opportunities created as long as your cushy job is safe, right?

Really - can anyone name me one place, where Sunday trading restrictions have been reimposed due to a negative impact on the society?

Just one will do...

what 60%? where do you pull this figure from.
the vote in the landestag was 51:51. which if my maths dont fail me is oh er 50%. and these are the same people who will be voting on it next time. i've yet to meet a working german under 50 with or without a family who thinks its a bad idea to change the hours.

There have been reports IIRC in the UK press about lack of access to shopping facilities, particuarly on estates and in inner city areas.

An aquaintance of mine fairly recently complained where she lives she can buy stuffed fucking peppers at three quid a go as antipasti at three posh delis but she can no longer buy toilet paper within walking distance.

The poor, the elderly, single mothers with children particuarly suffer as a result of this.

@ Hazza, I'm not saying I think it is the SOLE factor but a contributory factor.
Why are lots of little Munich pubs closing? Not just becasue of competition from bigger units, wholesale beer prices in the tied businesses etc but also becasue of demographic change.

This 60% is the result of an internet poll conducted by a radio station.

As if you can take the result of that survey seriously...

ok not perhaps the people who will vote for it next time but still a relevant proportion of people that need convincing Sunday opening is a good idea.

for the record, have never heard my German colleagues/friends/acquaintances complaining about the fact that they cannot shop on a Sunday.

Again - please demonstrate that this is as a result of Sunday trading


Lots of little Munich pubs are closing because unemployment is high and economic uncertainty has replaced years of confidence. As a result, many people cannot afford to go out drinking and many others save their money for the, no doubt, bad times ahead. Of course going out to the pub is not a necessity, so this sector will obviously suffer.

Please demonstrate how any of this has anything to do with Sunday trading - even in your own words, tell us what happens if Sunday trading is allowed. Your own cause and effect theory is fine

Germans don't know the difference, which is why they don't complain.

I've said it about half a dozen times to be honest Hazza but I'll repeat it again.

Sunday trading is wanted by the larger urban or out of town retailers.
The chain stores in effect. They dominate retail in inner Munich but not in the outer suburbs and country.

The chains will find it easier to open on Sunday. offer staff extra shifts or hire those crasap students like in the UK.

The Sunday trade will be creamed off by the chains as people will buy on a Sunday more than they immediately need.

The small local shops won't be able to compete and will close.

A significant number of people won't be able to so easily access the city centre and out of town stores and will suffer access to basic shopping a a result.

We had the supermarket thread the other week.
Save me from diffing out my rankings again.
Yes, I prefer it in Germany to the UK.

oh yes right forgot. i hope people are aware that when such things come to votes and polls those who vote negitvely usualy are more proactive. you'll probably find that say only 20% are really truely against it if that. and by that i mean would, if the laws were passed and sunday became a shoppable day, out of principle not shop even in an emergency. (ie ran out of eggs and need them to bake ;-))

the csu will box this one through.