No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

This whole talk about 'maintaining the culture' puzzles me too. It's like the British who believe they should not join the Euro because it would somehow diminish their culture.

You've got a lot more to worry about if your culture gets suffers by such minor things!!

probably - Canada and the US- we have been doing that since I was a kid

Oh yes, I remember going to towns in Germany on day trips on Sundays and finding the tourist information shut. What?! Sunday is a day when people go away and want to find out what they can do. You're better off shutting tourist information on a Tuesday or something

Can some help me out on this one as it has been repeated often on this thread but as far as I can see there isn't huge difference between chains between the two countries:

Where there is x UK there is y here.

Department Stores:
John Edwards
Mark and Spencer for Kaufhaus

Clothes:
Zara and HM for Zara and HM!!!
Next/Top shop for [fill in blank]

Electronic Goods:
Dixon/PC World for Saturn and MediaMark (owned by the same company!)

Butchers:
Dehurst (chain NW) for [forgot the name of the chain in Munich]

Opticians:
Spec Savers for [fill in blank]

DIY:
Do-it-yourself for OBI

FastFood:
MacDonalds for MacDonalds
Burgerking for Burgerking
PretManager for doesn't exists.

Grocery:
Supermarkets vs Supermarkets
Farmers Market (especially in middle class areas!) or stalls vs Famers Markets or stalls
I even saw a stall near fruit stall near Victoria Market yesterday and know there a huge fruit market in Soho.

Chemist:
Boots for [fill in blank]

Stationary:
WHS for [fill in the blank]

_____

In terms of fast food, I would expect the UK to some exent to be more open to chains of whatever-it-may-be i.e. Pizzahut, Pizza Express, Starbucks, Pretamanger, KFC but for other shops item I just do not see a huge difference.

So if someone can tell me if really germany is the land of family run shops to the extent that some allude to or in reverse that the UK is the home just chains...

Butchers:
Dehurst (chain NW) for Vinzenzmürr

Opticians:
Spec Savers for Fielmann


Chemist:
Boots for Drogerie Markt (DM)

Stationary:
WHS for Kaufhof or Hertie (probably)

There's not much going on upstairs is there mate? As I previously said I am a Kiwi and it clearly states so on my profile (that's the page on which information about me is placed...you can find that by clicking my name link...a link is something that will take you to another place on this internet thing)


Did you not graduate high school, that's some terrible education by the British system if that's what you believe.
Don't make assumptions about things you have no idea about, it makes you look like a bigger fuckwit than I think you already are (which is quite an achievement, as I think you are probably the biggest internet fuckwit I know)

[quote name='Hazza' post='761735' date='Nov 11 2006, 3:32 pm']
Butchers:
Dehurst (chain NW) for Vinzenzmürr

Opticians:
Spec Savers for Fielmann

Chemist:
Boots for [b]Drogerie Markt (DM)

or Schlucker - sorry, I mean Schlecker (the people that work there are arme Schlucker)

Stationary:
WHS for Kaufhof or Hertie (probably)

or McPaper (yes its actually called that)

People talk about cloned identikit "high streets" in UK, but its pretty much the same in DE at least as far as the primary shopping streets are concerned.

Well, we don't have to hypothesise as we can see the results in action in numerous places and situations. Cutting back available work hours to any certain amount is not going to stop companies taking advantage of employees, that requires different regulations that do not have anything to do with operating hours of retail shops.


Really, what does someone's nationality have to do with this? I don't think your opinion is any less valid because of where you come from. I will question how you formed your opinion, but I don't need to throw insults about your nationality simply because we disagree. Try adding something to the conversation instead of just acting like a little child.


How does this relate to Sunday trading? Do you believe if their retail hours were cut back the malls would dissapear? You are confusing two issues here.


How does this comment relate to Sunday retail trading? KFC, Starbucks and your misperceptions about certain TT'ers don't seem to have any relation to Sunday trading. Do you think enforcing a ban on all coffee shops and fast food outlets on Sundays would result in traditional little businesses overwhelming generic brands? Or would everything need to close on Saturdays too for this to happen?
If you can tell me, or even hint at, how this would actually work I would be all for it. Unfortunately, again, you are confusing different issues with being able to operate on Sundays.


This is great news! I'm happy for you, and refusing licences to unwanted businesses might be a good idea for other places. But sorry, what does this have to do with opening on Sundays?


Can you show me the posts where anyone says this? I think your own hysteria is giving you hallucinations.


We are not complaining about the shopping hours. We are asking if anyone knows why a person should not be able to make a living on certain days of the week simply because his business is shopping, and just because most of us (me included) don't like Sunday shopping, why should a government enforced law apply. Your reaction that shows you have not put any thought into what we are talking about at all.
It suits me fine here as it is, as I've said previously. I'm quite happy if it doesn't change, it's no massive inconvenience at all. I am interested in the opinions of anyone who thinks they can actually justify why retailers should be restricted in the hours they choose to make a living and why other businesses are not, not whether you like shops being closed or whether you enjoy Bavaria.
The fact the law exists doesn't mean anyone should 'fuck off' or not think about it.

Thanks for the commentary though.

So then trial it for 3 months and see what happens. I'm betting if they did that, then they would not repeal it and a majority of people would want to keep Sunday trading - particularly those who have gained employment, extra work or extra revenue through it.

Well there is a trial becasue each of the 16 German states can set its own laws on this.
I read in the taz yesterday that Berlin has gone for a 20 hour (?) rule and Sachsen-Anhalt for 24/7.
Bavaria could see what happens and then re-vote if they wanted to make any further change.

I'd suggest 3 months would be too short a time though to see the social costs come through.

I don't think you're going to be able to see the social effects of anything in 3 months to be honest and that is what we're discussing. We're not discussing whether there would be economic benefits. That's a given. We're discussing if the economic benefits outweigh the social costs.

To put things into perspective, everyone thought the pill was great when it first came out. Now, some people are postulating that one of the reasons no one is having children anymore is a result of it. This effect, if proven to be true, has only developed almost 40 years following its introduction i.e. a generation later. 3 months is nothing in comparison. Change is inevitable, but it should be managed. And that's what the powers that be are trying to do.

I said this ages ago, but clearly no one bothered to read what I or some others wrote.

Edit: MT beat me to it.

See, I am still trying to work out the mindset behind this law, and as I expected it seems to be fear.

People have talked about regulations to protect people and the like, but not actually come up with any good reasons why Sunday trading should actually need it. And even when they can see many examples showing that everything they are afraid of still happens even when there is no Sunday trading (and even use these same examples in their arguments without noticing), they still accept the illusion.
I know this shows in the vote results, but I still can't see any thoughtful defence for it.

It reminds me of witch hunt hysteria. Although the outcome is a whole different level of persecution, the mindset itself appears the same.
If it is tradition to hunt witches for the protection and good of the community, and everyone agrees they feel safer when there are no witches and vote as such, does this mean it shouldn't be questioned?

Does this mean that anyone who points out neighbouring villages do not hunt or kill witches because they have realised the law is superstitous and unessecary are simply trying to suffocate culture and old traditions?
Are they just outsiders who should go away and not inflict strange ideas on fixed mindsets?
Should they shut up and not take an interest in asking how the people think the tradition actually protects them?
Should they be abused and insulted simply for daring to question something that has been around for a long time?
And how can the answer 'it's just the way it is here, and anyway I don't like witches' be acceptable logic?

@Marshbot,

Excellent point/post..that is why I find it interesting when people try and build logic onto a position that is normally nothing more than an emotional preferance. Therefore, I'd respect those people more if they just said I prefer no shopping on sunday as it suits me and then basta...but instead we get all the psuedo economic arguments (protecting the small shop, protecting workers etc) that have been pointed out are happening anyhow or have nothing to do with sunday trading...

So, if you like Sunday trading you normally do so because it makes Sunday a different day to the rest basta...which is a perfectly legitimate position to take...in my book.

It's a mixture of both though innit.
The decision of the CSU is a composite, people voting swayed by differeing arguments.

You've lost me here... don't you mean "if you don't like Sunday trading"?

Exactly. And my point is, the votes show the general mindset is that Sunday trading is to be feared. But why?
Even travellers from other countries cannot explain what exactly is to be feared. The only comments coming up are a dislike for shopping on Sundays, a dislike for large, generic branding and stores and a noble fondness for culture and tradition.
But still no reason why reducing or increasing hours of competition between the big and small stores should affect current retail modernisation, or what the social costs we fear would actually be.

It would not be too short to notice a few trends.

Does the economy receive a boost? How about unemployment? What effect does it have on the 'peace and quiet'? How are Saturdays affected? Does it make it easier to get around town then?

Sure it won't be able to answer all questions, but it will answer some and give us a better idea of the impacts than just speculating.

The fact that other states are looking to reduce trading restrictions shows that change is starting to happen. The fact that the Bavarian government are looking at how other places in Germany are going to be affected shows that they are interested.

People are so concerned about the social implications on Germany with this.

So I guess that German Government is better than most and has their finger exactly on the pulse of the people.

Why if this is such a hot point do they simply hold a public referendum on the matter and let the people vote on it. Sorry but I am not perfect in my knowledge of the system here.

They have. It's the people themselves who are scared of the social implications. I don't think it will change for a while. Not until dirty, foreign ideas from the outside world are allowed to filter through anyway.

Replying to your whole post actually. The mindset is not fear, it's being careful. A very good reason would be the effects that consumerism has had in the UK. The UK has changed into a "Me, me, me" - to use MT's description - culture where people only worry about themselves. Germany is very proud of its social characteristics and want to hold onto that. They do not want the after-effects of consumerism as are obvious in the UK. The UK also has a rather large problem with disaffected youths and petty crime. These have all been ascribed to the advent of consumerism. The Germans, whilst accepting that the tide of consumerism is inevitable, would like to introduce it in a controlled fashion. That being said, they have extended shopping hours till 8 pm everyday. However, there needs to be a balance and they have decided that keeping Sunday would enable parents to spend more time with their children, etc.

It used to be a federal issue and previous German federal governments liberalised the law.
Now it's a state issue, so there will be variance.
According to the taz yesterday, the centre-right CDU-CSU takes a more conservative view on changing this law and that tallies with what is happening in the state of Bavaria.


(German) politicians have an intense dislike of referenda.
The biggest issue at stake, the EU Constitution, won't be going to referendum.

Along those lines, there is a definite reason to fear a breakdown of society in favor of runaway capitalism. It is proven that a family that eats dinner together are more likely to contribute positively to society. Britain right now leads Europe in underage sex and alcohol use and are dead last in the number of families that eat dinner together (some BBC report I saw just last week). Don't forget, the biggest draw to be-your-own-boss-scams play on the breakdown of the social frabric and rat race escapism.

Sorry, but I think Germany's already a 'me me' society.

You only need to look at the people that complain about children playing outside during the day or the people that move in next to long established beer gardens and then complain about the noise to see that, or those that have a problem with someone using their basement to do painting, or satellite dishes on balconies, etc.

Anyway, I fail to see how this makes things worse. It's not like you can't get all these consumer items the rest of the time - and I think that Germans (particularly those in Munich) love to show off their wealth. How many Schicky Micky bars are here? and how many people drive expensive cars?

MUNICH has a Germany wide reputation for schicki-micki bollocks it is true but that doesn't apply Bavaria or Germany wide or even totaly within Munich.

The beergarden example and I agree with you 100% on that is a me-me-me issue.
But some of the other stuff is about having a worldview of "what is right" / "ordnung muss sein" rather than selfishness.

Yes. Being careful because of their fears.


So, they fear consumerism, especially the type in the UK. But as you point out, consumerism still advances regardless of what day of the week it is. And consumerism is not controlled in any other sector except for retail. By that argument they should also wish to ban going to see a movie on a Sunday, close down ciggarette machines on Sundays only, ban driving of cars and purchase of petrol, shut down local flea markets or sale of any goods and services once a week.
Maybe two days a week would slow consumerism down even more.


Yes, I know. And isn't that funny, because for every family that would like Sunday free to spend with their families (and do anyway, no matter what type of work they are in except for retail) there is another family who makes their living from a shop and might benefit from not having both parents forced to make their living during the same hours.
Maybe they would rather pay someone to run their shop on weekends rather than pay someone to provide childcare during the week, but they do not get the choice.

Maybe someone offers a job and based on supply and demand lowers the price they are willing to pay. Maybe someone jumps on them for having the choice to do that while purporting to be a fan of market capitalism, but seemingly perhaps only when it benefits them.

As Sam Kennison would say, "MOVE!"

Is that having a go at Canaryman or Ulysses?
Both afaik in favour of the capitalist system.
But they recognise that within capitalism there is regulation of the market.

I don't see any conflict or hypocrisy in their position.

Why do people just sprout cliches about German that are outdated myths i.e. German is the land of socialism and comradeship whilst the UK is a USA style free for all with dickensian levels of poverty and crime... absolute BS.

I've debated with Monkstown on this and shown that according to International surveys that:

1. Price are the same pound for Euros whilst:
2. Real wages have stagnated in Germany...UK they have risen (making UK workers wealthier in Purchase Parity terms)...
3. OECD studies have indicated that social mobility is worse in Germany than the UK..pos. something to do with the school system - labelling people too young. PISSA study made Germany about 21 or 23rd place. UK failed to take part in the last one but was 11th in the previous survey against Germany's 23rd place then.

And this week's Economist shows:

4. That poverty here (aprx 18%) is above the EU average and nearer to the UK levels (22%). Poverty defined as lower than 60% of median earnings.

The only thing that I did show against the above.

5. That German crime levels are below the EU average but whilst the UK is a outlier it is not necessary that much worse than France or Spain for example.

So can we nail the myth of a socialist land of milk and honey...Pleassseee

Real incomes are falling in Germany and the gap between rich and poor widening. Big time.

Some social aspects may be held in higher regard here than in the UK.
But Germany socialist?

Exactly MonksTown,

That thats why making out that the UK is just me-me and a consumerist society is rather lame...

UK has comprehensive schooling and a NHS which are socialist in principal whilst German has tripart system and private health care based on insurance model...

I see all the same trends broadly in both countries...from TV realty shows, Celeb culture, Gadets, clothes trends, atomisation of the nuclear family etc. Shopping or no Shopping...

Can someone tell me which shops in Munich or suburbs are open till 10 pm? This is a serious question. I don't know any. All around here 8 pm is the limit. A friend mentioned a store in Gilching that's open till 10 pm, but I can't go out to Gilching! Thanks, everyone.

Just a shot in the dark, but maybe some shops at or near the Hauptbahnhof? Otherwise I know only that some stay open late in the run-up to Christmas. Sorry that I can't be of any real help.

@Kay Thanks - actually now I think of it, someone mentioned a Müller near the Hauptbahnhof that stays open - I must check it out.

Maybe I'm a pretty good shot after all.

Jez Stanford I thought you would be one of the last people who would decide whether my opinion is based on logic or emotion. I have to advise you that it is based entirely on the knowledge of how large retail businesses work and the damage they can have on the cultural, social and economic fabric of a society. If you give these companies an inch they will take a mile and they have no conscience about crushing oppositon, which is why this type of legislation cannot remain unfeathered. So I have posted some links about Sunday trading from Wikipedia and from my own part of the world where large retailers are allowed to open six hours on a Sunday. This law was passed because large stores lobbied that they were at a competetive disadvantage against independent convenience retailers (Spar, VG, Nisa) whose opening hours were unrestricted. Off course when they were given the choice to open six hours, they then wanted to extend that and the government commissioned a cost benefits analysis (carried out by PWC) to see if this was economically beneficial. Anyway read the links and you will see that the opinions against Sunday trading are more likely to be against self vested interests and based on fact not emotion.

http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=53216

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_shopping

http://www.usdaw.org.uk/usdaw/news/1132570080_3739.html

http://www.usdaw.org.uk/politics/news/1137674400_18994.html

http://www.tescopoly.org/index.php?option=...ask=view&id=478

And I like this American piece especially where the author articulates much better than I can the problems I have with the Walmarts of this world.

Primarily for Stanford some reports on the pros and cons of extending Sunday trading for larger stores in England and Wales.

http://www.eer.co.uk/download/2006eea.pdf

http://www.dti.gov.uk/files/file28110.pdf

The fact that the first report clearly demonstrated the biased towards large retailing groups of the DTI report resulted in the government doing a U turn.

BBC links

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5114028.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5152800.stm

So I believe my opposition to Sunday trading to be a logical one. Someone convince me that large retailers will not try and use it to their advantage and to undermine employee rights. Better still demonstrate Mr and Mrs Bavaria would choose Sunday trading when they will not even shop on a Saturday afternoon. Im all for a trial as long as the retailers are regulated in their treatment of their employees.

you know in Scotland we have never had a ban on Sunday trading. The power of the presbyterian grip on the country wa in the past so great that a law banning it was seen as unnecessary. So as Scotland became increasingly secular shops opened first in the cities and then further afield. So, some shops close on Sundays, otherse see it as their main trading day of the week. The sky did not fall in and there was not mass exploitation because the change came incrementally and sensibly.

Ah, hello dude! This is Germany, where everything you do at work is regulated, and the hours of work, the lunch breaks, the coffee breaks and the holidays are all regulated. So that is an invalid excuse not to have Extended hours of work.

@BTC

I have to say I found the experience in Scotland quite strange. I worked there for two years and travelled its length and breadth. I always found it difficult to find a shop that was open in the evenings. All the shops seemed to close early. Maybe everybody went to the pub or something.

@Carm

I love regulation. Oh sorry wrong word

But all large businesses work like that. Large movie theatres against little traditional theatres? Large cleaning companies against small ones... why does retail need law enforcement? Why should a little shop selling home made jewelery or trinkets suffer because of a fear of Walmart?


Gee, so what you're saying is that even when given the choice most places still close on Sundays. Funny, I thought that by allowing Sunday trading suddenly every retailer would be forced to open and every other person forced to shop.
That is exactly the point, only the places and people who would benefit will utilise it. Most people will still take a day off to spend with families... because they can. Nothing scary is going to happen.

Funilly enough, in the seven liscensed premises I've been in the last couple of days, it hasn't been an issue. Could that be becasue apart from Mr Karstadt and a handfull of inner Munich inner city ex pats no one really cares? Seemingly quite happy how it is, "past scho' ".

I do not believe humans are rational beings and most arguments are NOT based on logic. Some are cloaked by logic more than others but still at the base of them is a simple I prefer A rather than B. Correctly, the realm of public policy analysis is to try and find the hidden consequences of one action against another. None the less, Sunday trading does not by itself favour big or large firms it by definition favour those firms that are willing to trade on Sunday. All the subsequent fall outs about how large firms exploit, are nothing whatsoever to do directly with Sunday trading, but how a government chooses to regulate the so-called big firms.


..I do not put much store on PwC or any of the Banking Institutions models on cost benefit analysis...which in my humble opinion are just models that are based on how you value the input parameters...ultimately a totally subjective game!!! Says this failed PhD economics student...In fact PwC and such shite firms make shed loads of money enabling the Government to hide by pseudo-public-policy science...

So alas your concerns are legitimate but whether Sunday Trading should be the place where you coalesces these arguments is a moot point. But again I think it is legitimate (and possibly admirably) to want to keep one day different from the rest…basta.

PS. Says the guy who rushed of to the Tankstelle to buy some eggs for breakfast this morning. After asking my wife what she did when she did not have a Tankstelle nearby and she said that is what neighbours are for…….

It interesting in that Bad Kreuznach opens on a Sunday on a very old tradition that at the end of the grape harvest it gives time for the pickers and farmers time to have a days shopping and it still goes on today.

What is also interesting that all the so called people voting against the shops being open on Sunday crowd into Bad kreuznach the like you have never seen before, they love it, the shops are packed it must be the msost busy day of the year. So when people vote with their feet they are all for it.

Its all about the freedom of choice of the people.

Will agree with J.N. here.Today the Netto was open in Dorfen from 1300 hrs to 1700hrs and it was packed.It was also 10% off and that might have had something to do with it too.

This morning I went to a bakery just around the corner from where I live (which is open until 11am on Sundays) to get myself a few fresh semmel for breakfast.

It's a very small shop but there were still 6 people in the queue in front of me. I go there regularly on Sundays and am never the only customer.

I doubt the bakery (which is a small family run business that is not forced to open on Sundays) or the people who shop there mind the Sunday trading.

Not disagreeing Hazza, but when you can get six semmel for 28cents in Plus where do you think people would go then on a Sunday?

I'd still be going to the corner backery, because the Plus is far away from me, and I don't like their dried out semmels.

Plus is nearer than my local bakery that is open on a Sunday morning and they've a new brand of semmels in Plus. They are not the best ever but better than their old ones innit!

MonksTown - You guide to the stores where the skanky people go.

Today, I took my dog on a long walk. My wife and I partook of a littlee window shopping in Landshut (as it is a nice place) and I helped my neighbours daughter with a little English homework, later, at home. My neighbours were visited by their mother and father whereby they ate dinner together. Yes, Grandmother, Grandfather, Father, Mother and Grand daughter, together, eating and talking. Incredible (well it would be if it were the UK or some on this forum had their way!

My friends and their children in the next village are visiting their parents for dinner today too.

Is it not nice that this happens on the only day of the week that, due to work commitments, would be otherwise impossible??

None of them felt the need to go to Obi to purchase a nail today, none felt that they were missing out on life if they could not buy that particular CD from Woolworths today, none felt that their human rights were being infringed by being unable to enter a shopping mall today.

Roll on next Sunday, we are all going out together (again), on the only day of the week this is possible as if Sundays are opened up, some of my friends may have to work whether they like it or not.

Progress, well some rather short sighted individuals think so but then that is their opinion and they are entitled to it as much as I am mine.

What about people that do not have a family where do they go, what do they do. ?

Different people have different needs . You should think about others, shopping may be for them.