No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

The fact is they rapidly build a monopoly or a Triopoli (or whatever that is called).
Once the chains get established there simply isn't the choice anymore.
Canaryman pointed that out in his excellent post above comparing Aylesbury and Freising.

Weatherspoons is an interesting one. They've revived real ale a good bit in England and their prices are low. But they are very samey and the undercut small family run pubs.

My family run local CAN'T really sell a pint at below £2.50 but JDW's can do it for £1.50.

Marshbot, polling only the retailers wouldn't change the results that much. Malls like operations, city centre operations, the large chains would go for total liberlaisation, the smaller guys wouldn't.

People speaking from an inner Munich perspective aren't representative. As STB and myself have already pointed out, outside of the big cities and the big stores, there is already a lack of take up of the the law as it currently stands.

Well no-one asked me!

Sure they are, do you not consider McDonald's, Burger King, KFC, Subway, Starbucks, Mövenpick, Akkakiko etc. etc. out-of-town chain restaurants?

You can also accept that when you work in a grocery store you won't be working regular hours. How can you justify that restaurant workers are forced to work odd hours when other businesses aren't. Either you agree that people don't work on Sundays and that means all people (providing for emergency services of course) or you have to open it up to everyone. This wishy-washy middle ground where if you bake the muffin yourself you can sell it on Sunday but if it comes in a package you can't is absolute nonsense and based in no logic that I can reconcile.

I should hope you and MT have the integrity not to visit non-emergency establishments on Sundays.

So where do you draw the line here? The UK also has laws regarding opening hours. In fact, the only thing different in the UK is that stores can open for six hours on a Sunday. What if I choose to exercise the option of killing my neighbour? Should the law not be enforcing something there? Forgive the extreme example, but it serves to prove that all countries have laws that restrict people's choice, but for the greater good.

This of course is the only point that means anything.

Won't stop me complaining about it though.

Only because they have never experienced longer shopping hours. And 60% isn't that much of a majority. It would have been interesting if they also asked the reasons why the 60% didn't want longer shopping hours.

They have.

For about the 5th time.
Outside of the larger cities, the take up of the shopping hours as they now stand is low.
Despite the option of 8PM closing, shops still close at 6PM M-F and 1 PM Saturdays.

This is due to low demand that can be profitably met and the fact that many shops outside of the cities are family owned businesses.

TTers who correctly obey the mantra of being inside the Mittlerer Ring by nightfall have a different perspective than the majority of the population perhaps.

Sorry, that is a really stupid example. That is like arguing that we should enforce a law to switch off all TV's after 10pm on the basis that there is lots of rubbish shows on and we have laws regarding murder so might as well have this one too. Cos you know, where do you draw the line?
Sure, maybe it would benefit the population at the end of the day, maybe people would even vote for it, but that doesn't mean it should be enforced or even considered.


Which leaves an absolutely fantastic opportunity for a smaller garden centre or even just a flower shop to open with less extortinate prices and geared towards a different customer, such as yourself. Perhaps they will stay open later to pick up a little niche market of locals who can't or won't shop at the other place during regular business days. Who knows, at least the option is there for them.

I know of many such places from home where 24/7 trading is normal, I never had to shop at super-stores or malls (maybe once or twice in a 6 month period) and the smaller traders in proximity to them were nowhere near closing down.

They don't need or want government nannying, even if the sentiment is nice enough.

They probably only polled people at church on sunday.

Like it or not (and that's a whole can of worms) Munich is in the State of Bavaria.

And the perspectives of the people of Munich, particuarly inner Munich where most TTers live are a WORLD apart from the opinions of those in Oberfickenhausen out there beyond the A99.

Exactly.

doesn't mean we cannot bitch about it though?

This is exactly what happens when you let Mr. and Mrs. Inbredinbuttfucknowhere have the vote.

just kidding

If I really get the shopping bug on a Sunday, I can just go online. Lots of German shops sell things online 24/7. When I must get out of the house for shopping after the shops have closed, I just schlepp my laptop down to Starbuck's and shop online from there!

Hey, I resemble that comment!

Hee! Good one ER.

I meant later than 20:00 and Sunday opening. If you are used to never shopping on Sunday then of course you won't see any reason for it. The fact that 40% of people do want longer hours should be enough reason to get rid of the stupid law.


I am not arguing for a law to *force* shops to open longer, just get rid of the one that prevents them opening longer if they want to.

So you keep reminding us, Monkstown. It doesn't improve your enforced state nannying arguement however.

ER. comparing the Emergency service staff with checkout operators is not a comparison of like. Having 3 nurses in my family (including my mother until MS got the better of her) they will tell you exactly that.

When emergency service staff take up their vocation as that is what it is, they know the score. Service staff that are suddenly told that Sunday is a normal working day for no extra pay and that they have to work it for a day off in lieu, will have no choice. It happened to me, I had no choice other than leaving.

Marshbot. It is a nice thought but unfortunately it does not work. My father in law ran his company for over 30 years and sold it to Dachser. He sold it because he, as a family run niche market business could not compete with the big boys so he sold it to them instead.

Stagecoach is another good example. Move into a town, go all out to undercut absolutely everything (by fair means or foul(not necessarily illegal)) and then turn it into a monopoly followed by a major price increase.

Finger on the button there ER.
The CSU will do its damndest to stop us ever getting to vote in state elections.
They aren't going to win many (more) votes from voters in inner Munich anyway.

So they don't really give a flying frig about (say) your opinion but that of Herr and Frau Blödsau in Zwiesel or somewhere.

<side topic>
What I also read in the SZ regarding this is that when people drive from Germany into Austria or Czech Rep for cheper petrol then the CO² that is released by the burning of that petrol goes onto those countries "account" and the Ösis are already moaning about that.

<Makes mental note to buy Canaryman a pint sometime>

As we are now comparing surgeons, doctors and nurses with service staff(somewhat ludicrously), I will make a comparison with your statement... I have never had the experience of being run over by a bus but that does not mean I would the experience to find out what it is like.

Who was comparing the two? Of course Emergency services should be available at all times, there is no comparison there and I stated as much in my post.

My comparison was between restaurant workers and retail staff, unless your argument is that restaurants are an emergency service?

ER. Apologies for misinterpreting your comment.

Thank the Goddess foor those skanky little pubs in the GBV that open at 6AM!

Sorry to hear that, I know it doesn't work out for everyone, but I know plenty of small business who have adapted perfectly well. For every business like your fathers there is another one who could benefit from being allowed to choose their own opening hours. (If you are getting at trading hours being responsible for the loss of his business, as opposed to simply a bigger company taking the market, which is a whole other thing and trading hour laws are not going to help.)

Actually, I think this is the problem. People are confusing allowing choice in trading hours with big, generic companies or franchises taking over small businesses. You can help or protect small local business by buying from them only and encouraging others to do so, but telling a small family business they absolutely can not sell their goods in the late evenings or on a certain day in the weekend just in case a clone-like store starts sniffing around or gets a foot in the door is just bollocks.
If the market is there you won't stop the super store arriving with all it's frills and bells, and by keeping restrictions on hours of business you are simply restricting the flexibility of the smaller places to react and adapt. Nice job, you meddlesome kids.

exactamundo.


how can you know they've never experienced longer shopping hours?

if the majority (60%) of people are happy with the way things are here then there's no reason to change things. change it, and you'll have 40% happy people and 60% unhappy. do the math.

Marshbot, he did extremely well out of the deal but would only sign if the guaranteed that all his staff would keep their jobs (in writing).

The big businesses take over the small businesses and we end up the "Mcdonaldising" of the town centres.
They all begin to look the same, sell the same stuff, open the same hours (24/7) and charge pretty much what they like.

I for one, actually like visiting different towns and seeing the differences in the retailing, design, etc etc etc and I also enjoy doing something other than shopping at the local DIY store on Sundays. I tend to go to friends houses, go out with my friends to a restaurant or biergarten, etc etc etc and have not missed the Sunday madness that I witnessed in the carparks the local DIY shopsin the UK. It is great, families actually meet up and go out around here

I think that MT is absolutely correct when he says that a lot of people on this board seem to view everything from a big city standpoint, which is fine if you live in the city, but forget that once outside the city boundaries people tend to see and live life differently. We tend not to view Sunday shopping as a "cannot live without", more as an annoyance on an otherwise quiet and relaxed "family and friends" day.

I think that having the choice to open 24/7 would put a family business in an impossible position with regards to competing against the big boys, in fact, from my familys experience, I know that family businesses will find it impossible. It is ominous to be honest as people go where it is cheapest (I suppose that is why the Aldi brothers are the two richest blokes in Germany) and the small business will either sell or go under.

i think it's quite nice to have a day of the week which is somehow different from the rest. i used to resent the fact that shop opening hours were so limited here, especially back in the days of langer samstag. but things have improved, shopping till 8pm weekday evenings is more than enough for me and i now look forward to sunday as a chilli-out day. if stores were open sundays, i'd probably be shopping, buying crap that i don't need, spending money for the hell of it ... and i would miss out on quality chill-out time!!

Another point to make about the UK and its relatively unrestricted opening hours is the urban corner shop.
In many cities largely owned by south Asians and run as a family business, the owners, and their family can end up working themselves into the ground, putting in very long hours, effectively paying themselves a itiful hourly rate in order to be able to compete.

I think new small shops opening can find a place in the market if they find a nice or offer a value added service but that is the exception.

When I look down my local ex shopping street in the Uk, why aren't I seeing loads of new local business springing up but plenty of charity shops and "to let" signs? The exception being the new Tesco Metro.

That makes you sound like a shop-a-holic, but nobody is trying to force you to go shopping!

This is the most ricockulus point that people always bring up regarding sunday shopping. It is a CHOICE having sunday opening hours will only affect you if you wish it to

Just because 60% of people are happy with the way things are, doesn't mean they would all be unhappy if it changed. I don't know the exact wording of the question or answers so it's a bit pointless anyway.

As far as I recall there were various options on offer in formulating this CSU policy with a number of positions between no change and 24/7.

This annoys me so damn much. Why should I not be able to go shopping on a sunday
They complain about lack of jobs and bad economy, giving shops a free-for-all opening time scheme would put a tiny dent in both those problems.

This has been discussed ad nauseam on a number of threads already. Just do a search and you'll have enough to read until tonight!

Except it quite possibly wouldn't MrMosh.

Germany's higher unemployment rate is a result of the old DDR, the organisation of the social security system and the demographics of the unemployed often failing to match the vacant positions.

The poor domestic economy is a question of consumer confidence.

Changing the laws on shopping hours wouldn't tackle those issues.

Amen, Kay

That is why I said "small dent". I am quite sure it wouldn't really make a huge difference, but at least giving people the opportunity (or forcing via the arbeitsamt ) to work sundays in a store, or overnight in a 24h supermarket would make a little difference.

sure, no one forces me "to go" shopping, but as I leave my apartment and walk down the street with shops open around me, it would be as natural to pop in, have a look and probably buy stuff like I do on the other days of the week. yes, it takes discipline not to wander into the stores in the first place, that's why I prefer the stores to be closed on sundays. sunday opening drives materialism and I think I have enough of that already.

But maybe that little difference would be outweighed MrMosh by negatives such as a change in the retail landscape a la UK?

Yeah, this topic has been done to death before.
But this time, its not just inner city ex pats bitching into the ether.
The governing party in this state has asked its memebers on a change in the law and given them differing options and the members said "no change".

What exactly leads you to believe trading hours effect this? At home we have had 24/7 for years, and it's a non-issue. Most smaller centres and towns will still close on the weekend (often half of Saturday too) and some smaller shops in the city open late or all night, some choose not to.
People still shop drink at little cafes, buy from little fruit'n'veg shops and corner stores (or dairy's as we call them), the malls still gleam there in the background but when I left only had one or two late nights a week and I enjoyed not having to visit them because of the range of choice elsewhere.

Lots of jobs are available with the extra trading hours, I know my friends and I appreciated the work when we were students. People still go to the park and relax on Sundays, or whenever else they feel like it. Starbucks does OK but is generally sniffed at... where's all this retail corporate madness people are so afraid of? where are all the little shops with boarded up windows and all the empty parks or lonely playgrounds?

I love these misconceptions about needing Christian laws to keep humans in check, just for the entertainment factor, but can't believe they are so entrenched people can't see past them.


That's great. We have something in common. And yes, I agree, shame about the madness in the UK, that DIY weekend thing is crazy to me. But I guess it makes them happy.


Absolutly not. So far they have only posted about laws restricting retailers rights as opposed to every other trade, thanks to some traditional and out-dated christian ideas. Many people here have experience living in a variety of places, and I don't recall a single one say they cannot live without Sunday shopping or that they would regard Sunday's any different as far as leisure goes. And if they did like to shop on Sunday, who cares? Good for the businesses that will make a bit of extra coin then, and less crowds for us at other times.


Trust me, it is not impossible. Many countries are now updating these old laws, and especially in places not densely populated it will not make a lot of difference except for a welcome freedom to do business, just like every other trade is entitled to.

This is your own personal problem, not the problem of the shop owners or the government. Of course, if they were forced to close Saturdays too then you would only have to fight materialism 5 days of the week.

You cant fight materialism by closing down shops, he should just quit going to work, that would really put an end to materialism, innit?

There might be an argument that curbing materialsit pointless spending on knickknacky shite is doing th economy a favour long term. Consumer spending in the UK is on the never-never financed by galloping house price inflation and if that bubble burts...

erm, i'm not suggesting we should close down the shops. where the hell did that come from?
6 days shopping seems enough to me. apparently 60% of people think the same way, right? so perhaps the fact that I don't want the stores open on a sunday is not such a "personal problem" after all. the opposite in fact, I enjoy quality chill out time on sundays.

This is probably just the wrong time to change the rules regarding shop opening times.

Nobody knows what will happen to the retail market when the new Mehrwertsteuer increases go into effect in January, and some officials are a little worried that sales will show a dip, at least temporarily. Maybe they'll take up the issue again after the market has adjusted to the undoubtedly higher prices ushered in by the MWSt increase.

I most definately agree ... credit card debt in the UK is horrendous, and it has become a way of life for many. I enjoy living in Germany precisely because it doesn't have a debt culture quite as bad as the UK and there seems to be a bit more balanced materialist culture.

OK, so basically you want shops to remain closed on Sunday because you are not capable of making a sensible decision between shopping or chilling-out. Hmm.

correct. i like the fact that the state forces me to chill out on a sunday :-)

That's not really the point though. It's good you enjoy chill out time on Sundays, but do you enjoy the fact others are forced to comply with your free time schedule simply because it has been suiting you well enough? (which I think is what the vote shows, that it suits people well enough, if you don't really consider the total unfairness of it.)

I just don't get how people can discriminate with doom and gloom against retail and yet every other trade (bakeries or produce growers, transport, publications, restuarants, bars, tourism, movie theatres and other entertainments, labourers, child care, any other service) are allowed freedom to trade when they see fit. Why does retail get such a bum deal?