No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

when was the last time you needed service in tesco? that the beauty of it - it's designed so you don't need to ask help. it's part of their business model and it works.

agreed with the barmaid though.

Cos some things are more important than "me-me-me"?


Ans the CSU wants to try and brake that, hence their decision.

but you accept it when its a waitress on a sunday? this is protective bollocks. it stops creative shop keepers from expanding their business and providing the very community service you fear ill die and supports and encourages the lazy and crap service culture we have here. fact. been here way to lonh to see it anyother way. i remember the 18:00 shutting on weekdays and 12 on saturdays. when they changed it was the same arguments as now. and what happened. bugger all.

Excuse me, where can I find mincemeat?

What?

Can you tell me where the mincemeat is please?

<Blank look>

It's the fruit mixture that you put in mince pies, those things <points at mincepies in packets>

Over there somewhere <shop assistant waves in vague direction of half the shop>

= Just about verbatim experience of getting some mincemeat in a London supermarket last week.

Go to waitrose then - proper service there.

No, I'm more than happy to be tolerant for a newbie but my experience of many places is just crap service when they have these students doing the job.

Yes, I did it as a student but I'm a decent barman.


Yeah, if you're on benefits or a load paid job your gonna get loads in there aren't you!
I'm pikey scum, nearest Waitrose to mine is what, a good hours drive away?

That's preposterous. With no government regulations keeping shops closed after 12 on Saturdays surely all hell broke loose?
Did the parks not empty out as parents dragged their children around grabbing goods that wouldn't have been for sale at 2pm on a saturday normally? What other break downs in society did you notice?
How many little stores did you see close before your very eyes due to having to operate extra hours in competition with bigger ones?
Did children not suffer neglect while their parents were forced to man the till?

Nice try at a smokescreen there.

Capital is dead labor, which, vampire-like, lives only by sucking living labor, and lives the more, the more labor it sucks.

Workers of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains.

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.

Well he was struggling with this money on five days a week prior to Safeway being bought out by Asda in Northern Ireland. He and all the other employees now work 20% more for the same money. I think that is deplorable and have no doubt that tier one retailers would utilise the same type of strategy here. Therefore I am against extending opening hours because I believe the implied economic dividend is a misnomer, there is no job creation benefit and it is just taking advantage of those on the lowest incomes. But outside that i believe it is fairly evident that it simply would not be embraced in Germany. In Trudering DM, Schlecker, Tenglemann all close at lunchtime on Saturday because people just don't avail of the extra opening hours. The only store that stays open is Minimal and as Monkstown pointed out it is deserted.

I would only choose the convenience of longer opening hours if I could be assured that retailers would not use it to take advantage of their employees and if it was going to be used by the general public. I have yet to see an argument that convinces me to consider it as a viable option here. And the fact is the majority do not want it so I am happy to go along with that.

errrrrr no. all i moticed was that people wer shopping in a more relaxed and civil manner. and that those german or otherwise who had children could be more flexible with their time with the children. little shops didnt dissappear. a few refused to open the new hours obviously believing that the german people did not want this change and it was forced on them by expats. that is untill people voted with their feet and shopped in stores who were more accomodating to a modern lifestyle. and for those who were single and working we could by an fmcg without having a hangover.

Indeed!

Well you get what you pay for.

To provide decent service the staff costs go up which mean product costs go up to maintain margins to keep the share price strong to keep the pension funds solvent so they can meet their obligations in the future.

So, would you rather have service now with low prices and no pension in the future. Or work out for yourself that mincemeat is likely to be in the baking section, pay less but at least get a pension?

my parents live outside munich. all shops close at 1pm on saturday except for aldi and edeka. the small city is empty from 12am onwards. and even edeka and aldi are pretty empty at around 4ish.
so why should the shops stay open longer?

What about employees being taken advantage of in any other business? Is there a reason you only have concern for retail situations?
Any other trades you would like to limit hours of for the same reason?

@topcat1, as long as Asda did it by the book then unfortunately it's tough shit for your mate. If he doesn't like it, there are others willing to take his job at that wage. He can move on and do something else

that's coz they've probably just finished their döner and gone home to bed

Any reason why they shouldn't have the choice?

one, i can't believe this thread has gone on for what, 23 pages now. it's been done to death but there are so many underlying discussions that it always comes back.

two, i don't know where planetmoni's parents live but i've lived in both freising and erding. freising was indeed as plantemoni says, everything shut and the place was dead. erding however still retains a 'buzz' as it has a compact, pedestrianised centre with a lot of bars, restaurants and cafes which keep a bit of life about the place. it even has gruber (huge clothes store) whihc is open until 6 on a saturday and the shiny new edeka in aufhausen is open until 8 and is always busy.

country life bain't what is used to be.

they dont. but only in that specific local market and out of their own choice. other markets have different demographics and catchment areas which demand other scenarios. infact your statement supposrts deregulisation. let the market needs be judged by those serving them. imagine bars shutting at 11pm because the law says they should do.

I have an idea how this can be settled fairly.

Obviously, people are scared of change. So I would propose that deregulated opening hours gets trialled in Germany for 3 months, so people can see what it's like.

After that time, have a referendum to decide whether to keep Sunday trading permanently or to abolish it.

If that happened and people voted to abolish it, then I would shut up about it, because then the alternative will be given a fair run and people can decide on the actual effects and not on speculation.

Firstly I would like to say that I am glad to see Ulysees back, I noticed he was gone for a while and I am impressed by the way he presents his arguments even though I do not always agree.


@ Marshbot I do have concerns about other areas, whether it is a 24 hour seven day factory paying the same hourly rate no matter when you work or paying half that rate to immigrant workers it is something that grates with me. The fact that large business will discrimate against their employees if not regulated and will dump on their employees if they can get away with it makes me fear if there would be any positve economic benefit for anyone but the retailers themselves by allowing Sunday opening here. Maybe politically I am just more aligned with the rights of workers than the rights of retailers and the convenience of Sunday opening. As I said if i could be assured that they would act multilaterially it would be worth considering but I am still not convinced of an economic benefit even for them. Maybe like Hazza said we could trial it for three months but I just think it would go the way of the many retail experiments catering for ex pat requirements and that it would not be accepted here. But any of us can only hypothesise what the result would be and you have your opinion and I have mine.


@Timmeh

Yeah he could do what many have done and sign on the sick and drain resources from elswhere. I happen to respect him but I have no respect for a company, retail or otherwise, that works on the boundaries of the law to line their pockets at the expense of the people who work for it. And unfortunately it is exactly this type of behaviour that requires goverments to implement regualtion and restriction to protect workers and as a consequence limit our freedom of choice. In cases like this I have no problem in relinquishing choice.

Bingo, I knew you were an Aussie/NZ. Lets face it, apart from looking at sheep and having no traditions, except for the annual "King of the shearers" competition, you have bugger all else to do except go to the local branch of the Laura Ashley soft furnishings on a Sunday.(which will be staffed by a poverty waged local that has no choice but to work on Sunday as no-one else will give him a job).

I get the distinct impression that this thread will sink very quickly, especially with the sheep insults.

Upon asking my (somewhat overly) travelled wife (for business not a student gap year) she recalled her visit to Bangalore. There are loads of chains there and loads of "malls" under construction. Dont believe me???

http://wikitravel.org/en/Bangalore#Shopping

Yep, the nationals from nations with little tradition will be able to usurp the local traditions (that even the British Empire managed to encompass) and have their way. Timmeh, Marshbot and even Hazza will be able to by a KFC and wash it down with a Starbucks in any country in the world.
I can hardly wait (Fortunately, in the area where we go skiing, McD and BK were refused a licence to open on the slopes and they were refused site in the town too. The result is the nearest McD is 45km away but we have more restaurants (inc chinese and mexican etc) that are family run etc etc...yep, that IS what I call progress!!

Topcat. I was not the one to enter into the realms of sarcasm first or have my posts removed for abuse etc.
To be honest I did not know the thread would last this long but I reckoned without a bunch of people from developing countries that believe 24/7 is the answer to all world problems. (including the enviroment, poverty and starvation )

completely off topic but following on from what was said above beor ei can finaly switch of and go home.

is it a bad thing that we're all starting to share a common culture around the world? there was a saying that no two countries that have macdonalds have ever gone to war with each other. (not realy sure if thats true but the ideology is a shared common culture is also a possitive thing) maybe if we all speak english sip starbucks laugh at the same jokes get rat arsed on becks and eat a maccy dees before hurling on our nikes then the world would be a safer place with less wars, suspision and such. polititians allways seem to want to expose our differences in order to raise the blood pressure and volatility of the electorate. just a thought like.

It might stop wars, but it would make the world a damn boring place. Attitudes to differences need to change, not the differences themselves. We shouldn't see people who are different as threats, but rather as an interesting, new paradigm. We can learn from them, as they can from us. Variety is the spice of life.

Yeah, I live in Bogenhausen, and a few of the shops around here close at 2 on Saturday and 6 during the week, I would love to shop there, but my work hours don't always permit it.
As for Freising, I have tons of patients from Friesing, all of them are business owners, and I asked them about it sunday shopping, and they all replied, they have no issues with it, it would open up business for them, and they would then be able to get another partime worker in.

As for the student comment- Fuck you! I worked my ass off, very motivated for my mininum wage job, as most of my friends did to, as we were all asskissing for more hours! That is how it works in the real world.


Funny, I noticed the opposite. We go hashing every second saturday, and very often we are in small towns out on the Sbahn, and it is amazing that all the shops close at 12 or 1, but all the people of town have to go into Munich for their purchases, henceforth the Sbahn being crowded on Saturdays. Aslo in alot of these small towns there might be a Penny or Aldi that is open til 8, and guess what? Its busy, even at 5 or 6 pm.

what amazes me is that the majority of you that are complaining about the shop hours knew this when you got here,so why live here ? if you do not like it, fuck off back to where its more convienient for you. i like it just the way it is, fuck you foreigners to wanting to change our way of life just to suit your selfish lifestyles.

What an unpleasant reply.

What is wrong with a debate on this issue.

This is the 21st centuary.

Well Fuck off right back, yes, we live here, some of us even pay alot of taxes here, that gives us the right to bitch an moan about it. Some of us have a choice to live here, some not. I read your profile- says you are British, so that makes you a foreigner too!
When I moved here, the shops closed at 6 during the week, except Thurs til 8:30, and satrudays- 1pm, only the first saturday of the month was til 4, but even then it was only the shops in the city center, you couldn't buy groceries til 4 on those saturdays- those still all closed at 1 pm.

If Germany decides to stay in the 1800's, well, yeah, we will have to live with it, but we will aslo speak with our money, and shop elsewhere. I personally do alot of shopping in Holland and Finnland on yearly trips.

Have to say Johnny, the reply is not pleasantly put but I agree with the sentiment.

I left the UK for a variety of reasons, one of which was wanting to live a not-so-hectic life. I know that one does not have to go shopping on Sundays but one does have to put up with those that do. Being told that "you may have to start working every other Sunday" whether you like it or not is also not my "choice" of how I wish to live. I resigned, sold up and came over here only to find that despite the locals being happy with the shopping hours, a few expats see 24/7 as the end to all economic problems and the beginning of a prosperous economy, akin to the UK. It will be interesting to see if this does actually happen and then it will be interesting see if we have the same social and family-unit breakdowns that we see in the UK.

Canaryman

I do understand where you are coming from. Thats how I felt. After de regulation in the UK where exsisting employees were protected from working it was far less disruptive than I expected.

Many things change and i used to get upset, but too much wishing for the past is not good.

I now try to work with change and make the best of it and it is for me a better path, as i am by instinct an old fashioned type of person.

My job is now to introduce change and I genuinly believe I only recomend changes for the better. germans are reluctant to change but in this modern world you have to, to survive.

Britain is now a place were change is the norm. you do get used to it.

I do feel sorry for those that want to keep things as they are, but today ' It dosnt work like that'.

Sorry Mr Norfolk but are you saying the 60% of locals that do not want change have no right to do so?

Majority rules and this is a democracy. Change is fine, as long as it is for the better and I do not see 24/7 being for the better (unless you wish to go to halfords to buy some car wax at 3am). Why do you assume that any "change" is for the better, that is only your opinion and in this case you are with the minority (40%) so I see no reason why it should be foisted upon the majority.

Change. Well, as I mentioned in a previous post, McD and others wanted to open a giant burger bar on the slopes but were told to "hoppit". Good. Do you really think that having the slopes and local town covered in McD, BK, Pizza hut etc etc etc is actually a change for the better? Fortunately the locals thought otherwise and they have been sent on their way.

If it aint broke do not fix it. Change for changes sake is not a good enough reason. Ulysses was correct about appreciating the differences of cultures and not trying to make everything the same(24/7 McD on every street corner, or worse still, on the side of an Alpine mountain)

Where are you quoting the 60% figure from? Is it the Bayern 3 internet poll the Planetmoni quoted? Because if it is, it's not a very reliable poll...

Canaryman

I agree with you, I would not want to spoil places, but it is not the same as shop opening hours.

The whole thing is a complete muddle if you took the Ludite argument you should then close all city restaurants and pubs after 6pm. Why should eaters and drinkers be able to be out late and shopers not.

the whole thing is a mess, anti choice, protectionist and dictatorial.

But it's barely any different in the UK -- all we're actually arguing about is six hours on a Sunday. Apart from that, the laws in Britain and Germany are identical.

what they could do is something similar to pharmacies - have a rotating opening on a sunday. So in each part of town (stadturteil?) eg Schwabing the likes of Rewe, Tengelman, Karstadt, plus (not penny tho) could rotate so people can shop if need be but not ruin the generally quiet sunday we now have.

No the laws in Germany cover all sorts of things like. You can only have a sale when the governmet lets you currently jan & July. you cannot sell below what you paid for it. you can not offer 3 for the price of 2 items you cannot buy basic medicines in supermarkets. the list goes on and on. so you see it goes much deeper than trading hours.

Jesus man, wake up to the real world, the sale rule is no longer in place and 3 for 2 items are on sale in loads of places. You seem to be living in a Germany several years behind the rest of us!

Exactly, if the trading hours are free for all, the big boys move in and we end up like the UK with its disappearing family stores, highstreets that all look the same, selling the same stuff etc etc. We then can start looking at the social implications on the family unit but that would be another thread.

Hazza, it may be an unreliable poll but it is the only poll. Why is it unreliable though?

What is the demographics of those voting? It would be similar to those that listen to the station. I'm not entirely sure who listens to that station and checks the internet site to boot - I certainly don't.

The other thing is that these sort of polls are often skewed by interest groups, who all vote. It happened to a few internet polls conducted on support for Israel in the conflict with Lebanon.

Look at any Fox News poll on George W Bush or Republican policy. It bears little resemblance to reality.

I don't trust these sort of polls at all...

Maybe if the poll told the reverse statistic, it would be more reliable?

Not at all.

I'm not sure what sort of music or demographics Bayern 3 have.

I would suggest that if it was Antenne Bayern or Radio Galaxy - or whatever else has a younger demographics would probably vote in favour of Sunday trading. if it was a religious radio station, then you'd find even less support for it.

So I don't see any point answering or justifying this 60% claim that has a huge error margin.

Of course the other big thing is that we never saw how the question was actually phrased. I've been on the site since and haven't seen the poll

Bayern 3 is the most popular station here and seems to be listened to by a broad range of people but not many old people (which makes the poll result even more suprising, imo)

Furthermore, there have been no local headlines proclaiming their "disgust" at the result of the vote to stay as is. This would suggest to me that most people are indeed happy with the way things are and do not wish for any changes in the opening hours.

I notice in your post that you state that there is a "huge error margin" in the poll. Do you know that for a fact or is that just your opinion?

Sorry, have to edit again.

The question asked is known and has been posted on this thread:

"do you wish for the shops be given freedom to open when they like, or would you like to see the shops opening for longer during the week or are you happy with the hours as they are" (not word for word but that was the question)

It's still a limited internet poll. I would never quote an internet poll conducted by a radio station as figures. There is too much of a margin of error. Anyway, Bayern 3 do nothing but repeat the same few songs over and over again all day. So it's obviously listened to mostly by people who don't like change


Why would they over a radio poll?? It's not like it's official or anything


That is my opinion. However, I would like to know what the official margin of error is. Any poll worth their salt (Gallup, etc) will always give a margin. If there is none stated, then it's not done very professionally and should be taken with a grain of salt


So there were 3 questions then. What was the break-down for each?

I will take a note of this as much as any other radio station poll - not much in other words. If and when a reputable company that specialises in this sort of thing conduct a survey, then I'll acknowledge that more. Meanwhile, Bayern 3 can continue to do what it does best - play top 40 songs over and over ad nauseum.

Oh and it's not off the table yet


Basically Bavaria is going to see how the rest of the states go on this - and I don't think that they'll have a bad experience. I am yet to see any place where deregulated opening hours were a failure and the government reintroduced stricter opening hours. If anyone knows of any place where this has happened, I'd love to know about it.

With Bavaria being the most conservative and religious state taking this view, it's going to happen soon.

Sorry, but saw this and was wondering where in Holland you were shopping? I used to live there and my family still do and the place is as dead as doornails on a Sunday. Admittedly, they are open till 8pm during the week and there's usually one evening when they're open till 10pm. But Sundays Holland closes down literally.


Polls are like stats, only reliable for those whose point they prove.

But Hazza the whole culture is built around the shop opening hours.

I think I better stock up on the staples (flour, beer, eggs, beer, milk, and beer) before as I am sure that all hell will break out and the city will be a blaze.

I also think it will be good for all of the dumb students out there because shop owners will hire them to only work on Sunday as the other staff in the shops who all have much desired degrees in the workforce will refuse to work on Sunday. This is the impression that I have the arguments before anyway...

I think that if most people look at this with open eyes they might see that the culture in Germany, Bavaria, and Munich is built on much more than shops having choice of opening hours. It has very deep roots in its culture and I like that. I would say that shops being open when they want is really not one of them.

I do recall a trip to South Africa a couple of months back and I was with German coworkers who all thought that it was great to be able to do things on Sunday that they wanted to do. To them choice was a good thing.

I am amazed at how so many people on this board who are not German and come from places where retail is open have such a strong opinion about "what Germans want" and are protecting that.

Next time you are in a conversation with a friend, coworker, or average joe on the bus ask him/her if they give a shit about it or not. You might be surprised.

In the Netherlands, local municipalities have the right to decide whether they allow Sunday trading or not.


So there have been positive effects on economic growth and employment in places that now allow Sunday trading. Well, what a surprise!!!

And I wonder from which country the cross-border shopping originates from...

I don't always shop on sundays there- usually recovering from the night before, but I take my business out of germany for my shopping. That is the point. Germany has miserable sales people, and I don't have that problem in Holland or Finland, and I don't even speak the language! I hate shopping in Munich on Saturdays, the shops are overcrowded, you cannot find anything, and that the whole day long. If we had an option of sunday shopping (even for a few hours) I would have more freedom and be able to spend my money here in Germany. Til that changes I will do my clothes shopping in Holland and Finand. Oh, and you can shop downtown in Amsterdam on Sundays, I have always enjoyed a stroll thru the some of the shops there (not all of them are open) and even some of the smaller towns have shops open on sundays for the tourists at least, never noticed that here!