No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

Oh please, give us your more-informed postion on the matter...

USA 4.6% unemployment
GY 11.6% unemployment

We already know that you favor GY well and above any other country in the world. Maybe you're biased...

Hmmm, I'm not sure it really captures what we are debating though.

People just vote that they are content, which is what happened in Bavaria (only just though, hooray for them) and that's fine.
This is asking whether retailers should be given the same rights as other businesses, and if they should face restrictions then why not other trades. Not necessarily whether you are happy with the shops being closed or not.

Even in countries where there is 24/7 shopping, most people still keep Sunday's as an obligation free day so I would expect the average person not to be that worried about it. I know personally I'm not that fussed, I work Sundays often anyway. That doesn't mean the law makes sense though.

This thread is getting at the why's, which I believe is quite different to whether you enjoy or even accept the shops being closed once a week. Even if it is nice, is it fair? How is it fair?

are you suggesting that germany can achieve 4,6% unemployment by opening shops in a sunday?

The food from petrol stations would make for a shithouse picnic - not to mention prohibitively expensive.

I have a better idea. Allow actual supermarkets to be open on Sundays...

Yes, the USA has a lower headline unemployment rate.
And the relevence to the argument at hand is?

I favour Germany above everywhere else?
Start a thread on (say) racism and education and you'll see the other side.

I try and play it fair and on this issue, I prefer Bavaria to the Anglo-American model.

That's great, but the powers that be have decided that you had enough time for that on Saturday. Everything should be done in moderation. If you're out shopping all the time, when would you spend time with your family?


That's your point of view. Unfortunately, the majority here disagree with you. Besides, do you prefer shopping to going to the pool or one of the Seen or skiing? God have mery on your kids if all you ever do with your life is work and shop!


As with everything, no system is perfect. We could just close everything. How would you like that? Or we could open everything. I think a compromise is in order don't you think? Germans love that: consensus and compromise. I think you could take a lesson from that before this thread becomes any longer...

Shouldn't that decision be left up to the individual?

No I don't think...this is why we have been having this argument for 21 pages now


I think the only lesson to be learned is for Euro nations to embrace the 21st century

I don't need the government telling me when I can or can't be doing things and who I should be spending time with and what I should be doing with them.

I am an adult and can decide this for myself and the government can go and get fucked

But, you see the compromise would actually be to allow Sunday trading.

That way those people who want to make use of it can and those who don't, won't. So everyone gets what they want, right??

Or just go shopping on Saturday for Sunday.


Yes. Arguments is though whether the individual will just get forced further down the line by big business. The other argument is that individuals don't always know what's good for themselves. If they did, we wouldn't have the social problems that we do. If you have read Socrates, you would know that the price we pay for democracy is a loss of a certain bit of individualism.

Who the hell are you to tell me how much to shop? We went once a week to many different shops. And shopping WAS family time, as was the meal afterwards. As my father was a cop for 28 years, we never had a "normal" schedule as a family. If dad was home on Sat, we did things besides shopping with him because he doesn't like shopping. On Sunday, when he was working or watching the football, mom and I left him in peace (which he prefers) and did our own thing.

Then there was my first office job where I worked 6 days a week. Sunday was the ONLY day to do any shopping as I was always too tired after work.

And if the weather is beautiful on Sat, I can spend it outside without worring about the shopping. I can't tell you how many beautiful Saturdays I have spent doing errands here when I really wanted to be outside enjoying the weather. And, as my luck would have it, it would be pissing rain on Sunday.

Except the people who get out from retailing cos the local shops close and they can't drive X kilometres to get groceries of course.

That'll be the poor and elderly on fringe estates and in rural areas.

But who gives a flying fuck about that as long as a small group of urbaine expats can go shopping 24/7 and have one less thing to bitch about hey.

So why are petrol stations open then? You can just refuel on Saturday..


You speak as though wanting the option to go down the shops on a Sunday and pick up a couple of chicken breasts and a salad for dinner is some kind of a social disease.

I don't understand this.

Surely if the shops are closed on Sunday, then the elderly can't go shopping then either. And youo still have not provided anything to back up your claim that Sunday trading causes small business to fold. I'm still puzzled at Fred Müller's decision making process regarding needing milk on Saturday or Sunday.

Maybe you can explain to me how despite having 7 day a week trading for as long as I remember, India is full of small shops. I can seriously not remember ever seeing a multinational chain apart from McDonalds

This is such a bollox argument...it never happened this way in NZ when we went 7 days per week...all the bible bashers were against it and came up with the same bullshit arguments...time proved them wrong, and will prove you wrong once the inevitable happens.

Ulysses, I know it's a long thread, but we're past the merits of shopping and how people like to spend their time. We're asking why is it ONLY retail who are restricted for any of these reasons. I think you have probably come closest to the true answer, social cost, which I see as people are afraid of a change. And I don't think this is a good enough reason for a government to be able to continue manipulating only this one trade.
I concur that the people voted, and that's the way it is. As I said, it doesn't bother me personally. But I still think the law is senseless and deserves more people to question it. And I'm wondering how anyone can defend the law itself, not why Bavaria voted for it which is fairly obvious, but it's merits alone.


Absolutely besides the point. This is no reason for government to control when you are allowed to work. It's like a form of censorship. (Censorship of lives who are so used to it they can't see any other way, sure, but censorship still).

Does that make any more sense to you? I think the poll set up might have confused the topic a little.

The argument is, that Sunday trading strengthens the hand of the chain stores who, despite having a VERY high market share in inner Munich do not have so in the outer suburbs and country.

The trend will be to shops in city centres only and at out of town malls.

The elderly, the poor etc etc will find it harder and harder to get access to basic food retail and will end up paying more becasue the local shops are more expensive.

It's a phenomena I know occurs in Britain and has been commented on since the 1930s at least

i think i know more families in germany than you. i also know this isnt just my opinion. nor the opinion of expats.


i hope you werent accusing me of being a bad parent there. the reason i cant sometimes do saturdays shopping is because i take my son to his football game in the morning and then maybe pop over to some other non-shopping saturday event. i usualy take him skiing on a saturday because thats when the slopes arnt full and i can spend more time with him. seen is weather abhängig. if sunday is shit i'll be gone on saturday.

so as you can see its fucking hard trying to do all at once. be a good parent spending quality time and being able to do the shopping with the family. and though i hate to say this, (although i always trust the experience and opinion of someone involve with something as opposed to an observer) you dont have kids so you being very patronising in your attitude.

My dissapointed face.

What's it got to do with who wants to shop and where they live or where they're from? What about the rights of retailers. How do you explain why ONLY their trade is restricted.

I think that guns are definitely a problem in countries like the US/SA/etc. Paradoxically, not in Canada though where gun laws are also very relaxed...

However the problem in the US is that you have the second Amendment -


Which makes it incredibly more difficult to reverse the current interpretation.

I was just in DC on the weekend staying with one of my best friends who is and ATF agent. He runs around the country, and sometimes the world, working the Federal DA to build cases against offenders. He and I agreed that there is definitely far too easily an availability of weapons. Who wants these illegal weapons? Drug runners and gang members who haven't an education and have a fatal sense of death. These people represent 60% of the murders behind bars in federal prisons. Drugs and guns go hand in hand my friend tells. So, in short, I am against all forms of guns.

But the problematic issue here is that it is in the Constitution’s Bill of Rights #2 and will not be easily overturned. I also believe that Post Office has a very difficult time justifying it’s raison de etre whilst the private sector can provide better services instead. However the situation is that while the US Post Office have allowed some competition in, they will still remain what they are – a statutory monopoly. Because it is defined in the Constitution.

Catch 22.

And I agree, there are no right and wrong answers.

I don't know if I would call 24 hour shopping progress. A lot of "progess" takes place without contemplating the potential social effects it may have. I don't see anything wrong with a government waiting to see what the potential long-term social effects may be before they enact any legislation.


It's your choice to be living here. I'm sure back home there are decisions made that you are not happy with, but have to live with because that's what the majority want. Besides, the 21st century has brought the advent of terrorism. Along with that has come impingement on our civil liberties. I bet you though, if a bomb exploded and killed people close to you, you'd be crying to a different tune. I know I'm being a bit ott, but I'm using it to make a point. You might be able to decide, but there are many who cannot. I think the evidence speaks for itself. How do you feel about gun laws then? Surely, you should be able to decide for yourself?


If it were that simple I would agree with you. Some would say though that it is more pervasive than that, that is, it would affect those who don't want it indirectly.

Bollocks!! If there is a gap in the market it will be filled, some shops may shut, true, but tough shit...change or die. Other ones will pop up to service (not in that way you dirty bugger) the elderly and poor if the demand is there.

EVERY business is in some way restricted or has government regulations around it.
What business is entirely unrestricted and totaly free market?

The majority of retailers DON'T want a change to the law as the small guys see that it gives them some protection.

some people are talking about governemt here like it were some big conspiracy to screw up their lives by denying them their god-given democratic right to shop on a sunday. simple fact, government is elected by the people and though we may not have the right to vote in germany, or shop on a sunday, it's no reason to question the legitimacy of the function of a democratic government.
local government says no to shopping on a sunday = the people say no to shopping on a sunday.
live with it !!

They don't want it because they are scared of change - like the office worker who suddenly has to work a computer after being in the same job for 40 years. Resistance at first - until he sees how much more flexibility he has...

Do you not think there is a basic right to be able to obtain food locally?

When that c*** Ceaucescu was doing his best to close down the small villages in Romania, "Systemisation" I think was the name, the first thing he did was shut local shops. Everyone screamed he was killing those small communities. Which of course he was.

But if Mr Tesco does is, that's OK it seems.

Welcome to the brave new free market world eh.

often governments we elect make decisions for us, that we don't agree with. And, I cannot vote here, but I pay taxes here, so I feel I have every right to bitch about it.

I'm not answering anyone else who tries to compare murder, terrorism, underage drinking, unrestricted gun ownership, incest, rape, or any other crime with Sunday shopping.

You really must be able to see how dumb you look if you make that sort of a comparison

I was referring to the German population. I'm sorry Gideon, but your knowing more families argument is absolute crap. What does that prove? Are you trying to tell me I don't know what it's like to be in a family?

No, I wasn't accusing you of anything. But I do find your attitude of having to be a parent to know what it's like very patronising. It doesn't take an expert to realise that parenting is difficult to put it mildly. Why do you think having kids is so popular these days?

Suffice to say, that the people that make these decisions are very often not exactly role models when it comes to family politics. But they have their logic I would hope and I see it as defendable. And I have to add that with 2 kids - I stand to be corrected - and still with his first wife, that Stoiber is a far more qualified in these things than a Schröder - 4 wives to date - and a Merkel - no children - who would argue for shops to be opened on a Sunday.

no, it's not about change. it's about how we wish to live our lives and a lot of people aren't willing to accept the social consequences of rampant 24/7 capitalism.

If retailers can't operate, than surely at least fast food restuarants should be restricted too? If anything, before the retailers.
What harm is someone opening their little sewing shop on a Sunday? Just because a mall will choose to open as well, therefore we should have a law enforced against every store?
What if Sunday is the best day to sell sewing stuff because everyone is generally off work (as it is their choice to be) and the families stop in on their way home from Church. What right does anyone have to say someone can't try to sell their own goods because of the day of the week? Are we going to fine this person for opening? What is the cost of paying these people who enforce it?
It's just amazingly stupid to me. I still don't see any reason for it, apart from 'shoppings no fun' and 'it's traditional'.


No, we are mainly talking about the right to sell, actually. As you already know from many previous posts.

Yes, we understand democratic government, thanks for the explanation again. But do you agree the law is rather ridiculous when you actually think about it? And don't you question why it is there or is the fact something was voted in enough reason to block it from your mind?

The fact that it works OK for you makes no difference. It works OK for me too. Just asking you to consider the rights of others to make a living during the hours that suit that business best, just like you can do in whatever business you are in.

Thanks. That sort of response is not what I expected from you. I was trying to put things in black and white for you so you could see the contrast. Did you not read the disclaimer? Many things in life are lot more insidious than you give them credit for. A lot of social problems are caused by things that you would never have thought they would be caused by like, for instance, computer games or films, lack of one parent, etc. Can you not see the complexity of these decisions? Can you not see the fact that it is not clear-cut, that there is no wrong or right?

And most retailers reckon they make a better living, indeed a living at all with the law as it is.

It's not the small businesses who want the law to change.
It's the big chains.

considering i know a fair few germans who find it bloody restrictive you've got me wondering who exactly you are talking about.

@Monkstown, So do you think they would make a better living with 5 day trading laws then?
Are there any other trades where you think smaller companies would benefit by less days to compete?

Gids, this is CSU members so some conservatism to be expected and a Christian influence.
But all these people go shopping too innit. There ain't no Weißwurst trees.

no, i don't consider it ridiculous at all. society requires boundaries in order for it to function and it's all a question of finding the right balance between the various interest groups.

so, a few of us already established that we tend to only use the Big Chains for most stuff anyways, and the small business are more restaurants or local bakeries (that are open on sunday).

What I think is missing here, is that in UK and NA, students have to pay to study, here not, so the kids don't need part time jobs, like most of us did. I worked from 15-21 part time in restaurants and shops to pay tuition and books, and extras. Here the Students don't need to, and there are some archaic laws about employing highschool students here. Lets face it, scanning groceries doesn't take a Uni degree, so anybody could do it, so why not some of those underpriveliged students?

the social consequences of rampant capitalism is that everyone becomes richer. that isn't a bad thing.

shops open on a sunday, they don't force people to use them, they don't force people to work in them. it's a choice. if people choose to work on the sunday they get paid more and then spend more which keeps other shops open etc. also if shops are open on a sunday people can then do everything they want - shop and leisure, boosting consumption which leads to increased wealth.

sunday shopping therefore is good for everyone.

it would also mean that I didn't have to haul my hungover ass out of bed before 8 every saturday to make sure I have food for sunday.

What part of society would not function without a boundary on how long you can open your shop for? Do you have any examples?

What other businesses do you think require enforced boundaries? Plumbers? Cleaners? Restuarants? Publishers?

What specifically is it about retail that requires this boundary?

And as a consumer, why would I care about the small mom and pop chains?

Of course the small ones don't want the change, they'd go under!

Two things are inevitable in Germany:
1) No smoking
2) Shopping on Sundays

Question is: when?

i think you'll your the one who is spouting off about it being a day for the family and that families should buy their food in petrol stations and visit museums. you basicly know jack shit about the economics and the pressures of running them nor do you seem to understand that the GERMAN families i know whinge like hell about the inflexibility of german shopping hours. if you've ever run out of baby stuff on a sunday you'll know why. i just pointed out that you talking absolute and utter rubbish. and its patronising to here it from those who do not have any practicle working 24/7 knowledge of it.


are you a father? do you have kids?

as for stoiber.(which way did he vote btw? a fair few csu including the wirtschaftsminister wanted deregulation) his wife does all the shopping. a fair few families where the mother has to work to make ends meet. you'll often find those who dont want the change are those who have a hell of a lot more time on their hands. hence 60% of bayern 3 listeners. hence their inability to understand that a bmw shift worker, a nurse, apoliceman, a airstewardess or simply a secretary may have different needs.

just another thought. is the german governments stated aim of not having sunday shopping to provide a competitive advantage to smaller retailers? or something else?

and no i haven't read all 22 pages of the thread yet!

well, I would love to stay around and debate more, but I really gotta go shopping, something I hate on Friday nights, but I hate Saturday shopping evenmore. But if I could go leisurely on Sunday to the Reim Arcade, I would be very happy.

See, now, this makes it so I cannot go out drinking with friends, so those businesses will suffer from my lack of spending there.

Where do you live? München-Bogenhausen.
This is a Bayern wide issue and the structure is different outside the inner city

As Small Town Boy explained MANY pages ago, even in Freising the strucutre of retail is different.


Depends in what circles you mix in sweetie.
The 2 friends of mine who are still students CERTAINLY need to work part time for their studies.
Access to higher education is more reserved for the middle to upper classes in germany so I can understand where you are coming from mind.

I do NOT want an unmotivated couldn't give a fuck student on minimum wage serving me ina shop thanks.
That's one of the main reasons i didlike the UK shopping experience.

Well, if they went from 5 day to 6 day...then I'd say it is a progression to move to 7 days...maybe I have a different dictionary to you.


I think they can look at what happened when saturday trading became the norm and see that society didn't fall apart at the seams and extrapolate that easily enough to sunday shopping. It aint rocket science

so you want a phd behind the tills in minimal? isn't that a bit of a waste of education?

Why are you tarring everyone with the same brush? It's bollocks.

Turn it around:
I once had poor service in NZ from a gay guy in a shop, I do NOT want a slimy poojabber on minimum wage serving me in a shop thanks.

Not a PhD, but give me anytime an expeirenced if sometimes a little grumpy middle ages German shop assistant anytime than those UK students at Tesco.

Same goes for bar staff, I don't want a pretty middle class student called Sophie Posonby Smythe who hasn't got a frigging clue pouring the pints but a tough old bird whos got for a laugh and a chat.

Timmeh, shouldn't too quickly draw conclusions true.
So I have observed the shopping experience quite clsoely between Germany and UK over the last couple of years.

I have had more bad experiences in the UK than Germany.