No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

uh, they don't? damn the family i work for and all our friends and neihgbors do. i better tell them they're not local!
yes, sometimes we'll get fruit and veg from a different store and bread from elsewhere, but umm... not always- just as much i did as a student in uni in the US

my experiece of the decline of independent retailers comes first hand from living in the UK, watching my parents family business decline as a result of the likes of B&Q setting up shop & opening on sundays ... there has also been enough said on this thread about the decline of the british highstreet to put forward the argument that sunday trading is a contributing factor.
as for being a multi-national in germany and taking a job away from a native ... utter rubbish! as a european citizen I feel very much at home here and have every right to be here. what about you, guess you had to apply for a visa?

To save anyone 10 pages or so, here's a brief recap of conversation as I understand it so far.

Q. How is retail different to any other business allowed to trade when they want. And why should it be treated differently?

A. You just like shopping at high street on Sundays and eating Mc Donalds, don't you. Dirty shopper.
A. I like to go to the park on Sundays and hang out with my friends!
A. I think large companies are horrible, they have bad service and spotty teenagers and I just think it's awful how much people like to shop in the UK.
A. If (retail) shops are allowed to open on a Sunday, Munich will clone into a city like London or New York, or an uncultured city such as you would find in New Zealand or Australia. There will be American fast food restuarants and Starbucks coffee shops and you won't be able to tell it apart from any other place. All traditions and culture will be consumed.

Hazza, I think if there was a decent argument for keeping the ban it should have surfaced by the 18th page!

Also Hazza, I do love it when I see these worker protection German Companies in the US working on Sundays. Hmm interesting.

Aldi, T-Mobile, Seimens, BMW, Mercedes, Ikea etc.

Just another small point, in the US there is no limit to shops opening Sunday's but there is a "evel chain" fast food place called chick-fil-a who is always closed on Sunday, whether in a stand alone locaiton or in a large shopping mall. They started small and survived no to become one of the compaines you hate.

http://www.chick-fil-a.com/Closed.asp

Closed Sundays. It's part of the Chick-fil-A® recipe.
Admittedly, closing all of our restaurants every Sunday makes us a rarity in this day and age. But it's a little habit that has always served us well, so we're planning to stick with it.

Our founder, Truett Cathy, wanted to ensure that every Chick-fil-A employee and restaurant operator had an opportunity to worship, spend time with family and friends or just plain rest from the work week. Made sense then, still makes sense now.

Oh, by the way, that 60% figure that keeps getting quoted was from the first page, quoted by Planetmoni:


So everyone is adamant taking this 60% figure as gospel, despite the fact that it was a radio station internet poll. What demography listen to Bayern 3? How many foreigners (and yes we live here so should get a say - and we are more likely to vote for change) listen to this station?

If I clicked on Fox News and looked at a poll about President Bush, he would be far more popular there than he actually is.

@ britMUC
Sorry that your parents business did not make it, but I think it is do to more than Sunday. (price, selection, services, etc)

Look if the little guy had a good business then people would go there. There is a reason people go to the large places and I do not think it is because we all have metal stuck our brains and the are operated the large Come To the Crappy Chain Magnet.

Business is Business. Large or small shops have to have an edge and stay current to survive.

Well explain the decline of the German independent grocer and the rise of multinational chains here in Germany then. They still have your precious Sunday trading ban...

If the defenders of banning a minority the liberty to trade when they wish (for their own good) cannot give an actual reason why it should only apply to retail, can you at least indicate whether you think lessening their allowable working hours further would be of benefit them?

If not, why? This can't be the perfect balance because big companies are still booming.

And if yes, how many more days or hours would you wish to restrict them (for their own good, of course).

i agree that every business has to have an edge. as for my parents business, it was damm difficult for a small family traditional business to wait out the novelty factor once a B&Q sets up in town and opens on a Sunday all in one blow and watch while curious "loyal" customers check out the new store ... sure, play around with opening hours, tweak product selection etc., but that can be a long waiting out period, and one which frankly not all family business can afford. that's when many go under! B&Q managed to wipe out the entire competition in the local area in a very short period of time. i guess the speed of change was dramatic, much to the detriment of choice, price and more importantly community ... people now shop in an anonymous manner, no personalisation of service, no chit-chat with the owner, no discouts for friends & neighbours or large purchases, no home delivery etc. etc. human interaction holds a community together. anonymous shopping experiences don't.

Again - sad to hear, but would it have made any difference if there was a ban on Sunday trading?

Just on a similar point. I've been to India a lot. They don't have any days off in the retail sector - the markets are open 7 days a week. Every shop there is a small trader and apart from the odd McDonalds, I have not seen any multinational chains there.

If Sunday trading attracts the chains, then why are there none in India? They've had 7 day trading for as long as I can remember.

and again, why should this be different to a cleaning business or small local paper? Why do you think retail specifically would benefit from less hours in competition? Do you think if there was a 5 day only retail law your parents business would have survived? How many less hours would they have needed to compete?

Can you not at this point separate retail operating hours from the whole other issue of big companies competing with smaller ones?

<ist geschmeichelt>

Had to do some work innit.
Who schedules meetings for a Friday.

Retail isn't different. It's a business sector and like all business unde some level of government regulation becasue the governments of society thinks that some things have to be controlled for the collective good.

It's the deabte about how much regulation that should be.
Different soiceties have different opinions on how much regulation there should be.

Some Americans view it as their "right" to go into a supermarket and buy a gun.
I think that's fucking nuts and impinges on the rights, like mine, to live in the kind of society I want.

Pubs and restaurants are regulated when they open. They are allowed to 23 hours a day in Munich.
The UK 24 hour licence also comes with new restrictions, making it easier to LOSE a licence than previously.

Pubs aren't allowed to seel drink to kids. They'd make money and the kids want it but society has decided that children have the right to be protected and that is more worthy.

Kebab shops aren't allowed to sell "Gammelfleisch". They'd make a profit and the alcohol in the stomachs of the punters at KPO on a weekend would kill off any bugs but the governments hamper this "free trade" too.

I could go on on and on about how all business is somehow regulated.
German retail is regulated on times it can trade on the grounds of certain economic and societal goals.

Whether that is right is deabtable, the CSU has debated it and thinks yes.
The majority of retailers and shoppers don't have a problem with it.

Re Local papers Marshbot, look how VERY hard it is to break into local press monopolies, we've seen that in Bayern.

Shopping: I shop mostly at Plus, in inner city Munich most of the local retailers have closed down. In the suburbs and country it is still different.

You cannot compare buying guns, selling rotten meat and underage drinking to Sunday trading.

Those examples are all safety issues.

What's the safety issue with Sunday trading?

are you shopping for one or four? i speak from my experience in the burbs of munich. i dont have time nor do i necessarily want to spend time and more money runnig around like a bored pedant. we do a family shop batsa sorted. aldi and the best supermarket in munich aez/martinsried. buthcers and greengrocers where i am specialise mor to fill their niche market. but are more expensive. if i multiply that for he family, not only do i lose a day a week being a mumbo-jumbo-hippie snuffeling in three million shops for a hand picked piggmie andean home grown carrot but i will end up increasing my food budget by 25% a month. theres a reality out there. and it isnt expensive shops for daily products.

oh and aldi has bio fruit and veg now. and they tried to push threw the ability to by asprin at a normal price instead of 10 euros for three tablets. dont knock these people. they know what the world is about, they understand the demands on the customers and the wishes that are out there. its these stupid non flexible people who do not use their competative advantage to the max wo get on my tits. use your brain expand your markets! piss fucking easy.

Please name one US state in which you can go into a supermarket and buy a gun.

For some people at least, the safety of the kind of society they want to have.
One that has a wide variety of local shops under diverse ownership.

JW, go and look at that bloody wishy washy liberal Moore's books.
OK, go and open a bak account and get a free gun or whatever.

Can't believe another thread on shopping has gotten this far and admittedly, haven't read all the preceding posts, but I get the impression that economic and social costs are getting mixed up here.

I hear the people shouting supply and demand should dictate whether shops are open on Sundays or not. The problem with allowing supply and demand to dictate everything is that we would end up back in the 19th century working our backs off for a pittance, having underage children working, etc.

The point is really that the government has a responsibility to the society that has voted for it. It has decided that the social costs of extending opening hours outweigh the economic benefits to be gained. This will always be a contentious issue since it is way more difficult placing a value on social costs than it is on economic benefits. But it does not make social costs any less real. Or important.

You can buy bullets actually, but no guns. Weird logic actually.

Oh come on, you can do better than that.

Who's gonna end up in hospital or dead because of Sunday trading?

Nail.
Head.
etc.

Hazza, there's your answer, social costs outweight any benefits according to those who have decided this and they seem to have made this decision after some debate of all the issues.

But again, you are ignoring the fact that so many non-essential jobs are already being carried out.

Why pick on retail? Why not allow retail, but shut all museums and swimming pools, for example?

Michael Moore? You can do better than that.

Can you explain how that would happen with the labor legislation we have in place in this day and age. Stores opening on Sunday is not slave driving, you know? Again, this is common practice in the US and no one feels exploited.

@Monkstown, All those regulations are basically health and safety. Not regulations based on competition with the rest of the market.

Exactly! And an interesting debate it is. I don't expect Bavaria to change for a while, but definitely in the future.
I just think it's an interesting law because it only applies to one type of business, and since it's been around traditionally for so long people can't accept that it's plainly, well, stupid.
I like the debate because you can question and question it and still get nowhere that enlightens you as to why it should be. People seem programmed to automatically defend it however, just because it's always been there so apparently all hell would break loose if it wasn't.


And that's OK too. Maybe many wouldn't utilise it, maybe many would. But it doesn't make it any less stupid.

Are you saying you think restricting their work hours would help?

Making the media better for consumers needs more radical solutions.
Like putting that c*** Burda's/Berlusconi's/Murdoch's (deletes as appropriate) head on a spike in Marienplatz.

Exactly, why do we have labour legislation? Because market forces cannot be left to their own devices.

As I have just stated, social costs are a contentious issue. The stand you take depends on your life philosophy which in turn is defined largely by the society and culture you grow up in. In Europe, society as a whole plays a far larger role in decisions made as opposed to the US where maximisation of shareholder value is considered more important. It can be argued that the latter means additional employment, but the converse is "at what price?". There is no wrong or right.

Maybe if I post it again, someone will answer...

After following this discussion for quite some time, I have now added TT's own Expat poll on the subject.

Vote now!
MT

Because museums and swimming are considered leisure activities. A man must break his back to earn his day of leisure, that being Sunday in our society. Retail is not considered a leisure activity, at least, not until women play a more decisive role in government! As you can see, the definition of leisure is also a political issue. While you are in the minority, you will just have to live with it. Don't you love democracy!

So then buying petrol is a leisure activity, but for a woman to go clothes shopping - that's not

i believe so. local business may be able to match the big boys in terms of opening hours Mon to Sat & even product selection, but many family business cannot afford to hire additional staff for sunday opening, or let's say, invest in a sunday workforce until such times that sunday opening becomes profitable. a lot of sunday shoppers are browsing, not buying. shopping has become a leisure event and for a family business where the owners already work 6 days a week, they can't afford to open the store to sunday leisure seekers.
also, the explosion of out of town malls happened as a result of the the liberalisation of opening hours in the UK. shopping habits chaged as people become dare i say lazy, preferring a one-stop shop & browse at the mall, rather than walking down the highstreet in the rain. many british highstreets offer very little in terms of a local retail component: banks, national retail chains & charity shops dominate. we have lost the local element for a large part. and as I said earlier, lost diversity & community with it.
as for india, never been there, no idea!

Talking with shop workers in the US and UK might bring you some different answers.

I don't think so, it's just a supply for an item which many households have. By your logic gas stations should sell cars etc.
Right, back to the topic. carry on

Mate, people who work 9-5 in regular jobs feel exploited

A little, but more we are asking why only retail businesses are restricted, and not others.

Giving retailers the rights to operate as other businesses does not revert things back to 19th century. It already exists elsewhere and entire cities are not suddenly working for a pittance or forcing their children to work.
Although I agree this might be exactly the reason/fear which prevents letting this law go, which is ironic considering how dated the law is.


Do you know what social costs might be being referred to here? Or just the fact people are afraid that they would slip back in time or turn into a clone town, as the fears on TT have represented.

Do you personally believe there are social costs? Any other businesses you can think of who should be restricted?

And do the social costs only matter on a Sunday?

@MT, I worked weekends (including Sundays...shock horror) and I didn't feel exploited. I quite enjoyed the cash to be honest with you.

Yes, you need petrol for your car to go to the pool or the museum or wherever. As I said, women were perhaps not considered in the decision although I doubt it was done intentionally since it is a blanket ban i.e. not just on clothing shops. Arguably though, visits to a museum or the swimming pool are far more family-orientated acitivities than clothes shopping and I think that is the aim of the legislation.

so far you haven't been able to back up your postion - as usual.

Trust me, I don't want your society either.

Ah - but if I want to have a picnic in the park, I might need some food and perhaps a basket to carry it all in - maybe even a blanket.

Where would I get that from?

Yeah, bosses stealing the surplus value of their labour innit.
But let's not get onto Marxist theory, let's just slag off UK supermarkets!

What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men.

Clothes shopping is the only activity I have EVER enjoyed with my mother. We talk about all sorts of things while shopping without yelling at each other. And when one is annoyed at the other, one can take a quick break by saying "ooohh I'm just going to check that thing over there. . . " and then tension is broken. We are both happy and feel a closer bond at the end. Then we usually grab a bite to eat and talk some more. It's lovely, really.

sorry i find there are more times when i need to go shopping with my family than when i have to go to a museum with them. even though my children insist that the alte pinakothec with its renaissance interpritations of myths and lore is the best place for the under tens on a weekend, i still force the buggers to oez to shop.

As Sunday is a no shopping day...let's stretch that further to encompass cars too. I say Sundays should be car free days, this will ensure that the people at the gas stations can spend quality time with their families too.


NANNY

Timmeh, Fasching starts at 11AM tomorrow, then you can dress up as the Evil One.

No really - given that petrol is on sale and trains run on Sundays to allow you to get to your relaxation/family oriented day away, how are you supposed to have a picnic once you're there if you can't buy any food?

Because they are not considered leisure or family-orientated activities. You'll find most businesses that are allowed to function on Sundays i.e. pubs, restaurants, lakeside kiosks, petrol stations all have a vital link to ensuring that people can enjoy the fruits of their labours on a Sunday


The question is why they are not being exploited anymore. Because government intervened.


As I said it is a political issue. What may not be important to you may be important to others. I only go home once a year max. to my folks - who btw live in Holland - whereas others visit them every month. Some people feel that, the market given the right, will impinge on family life and you will end up with disaffected youths, etc. and all the other social ills that come with dual-income families where the parents are working so much that they have no more time for their children. I'm unfortunately not a social expert so I can't give you a satisfactory answer to the question.

Other businesses that should be restricted? No idea. Why Sunday? Because we live in a society that bases its values on Christian precepts whether or not we believe in it or not. Our "morals and values" are still derived from our Christian heritage. Having said that, I think the social costs are not dependant on any particular day of the week wrt their importance.

You can buy food. At the petrol station.

Ok - your post on this topic was WAAAAYYY better than mine. I should have gone for smart arse as well. Well done!!! *golf clap*

Cheers Bumpy for the other thing

I think I've backed up my postion quite well; that is trying to understand the thinking behind this decision rather than people just shouting rah-rah-rah and following what Saturn and Karstadt want them to do.

It's a debate, of course there are different opinions andthere are no right and wrong answers.

BTW, what kind of society do you think I want to live in?
Hasn't ever been a blueprint from me on here, don't think I could present one, that isn't my politics anyway.

I specificly mentioned I don't want to live in a society with the widespread availability of guns.
Gun crime is fucking shocking and a lot of the time is the poorest and most disadvantaged who suffer under it.

What do you think on guns?