No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

So do I, as do many other people. It's why they can continue to offer something those big, revolting plastic/glass places with mobs of people will never be able to compete with. And it's why giving them extra freedom to operate can only be a good thing.

The 50's was a super happy clappy time I agree, but times have changed, you need to be able to move with that. It will happen here, it's only a matter of time, it makes no sense not to go to 7 day shopping...unless you are stuck back in the sepia toned wonder years.

I'm generally in favour of 24 hour licences for pubs.

But like ANY trade there is a measure of regulation required.
I'd like to see greater forced seperation between brewing and the ownership of public houses and them being "tied" to a brewery.

Part of the reason that small inner city pubs find it very hard in Munich is that many are forced to pay over the odds for wholesale beer.

I've watched with interest the liberalisation of licensing laws in the UK over the last couple of years.
The pubs that have taken advantage of the law are mostly the chrome and glass shiny shirt alcopop and crap bottled lager emporiums of the city centres. Owned of course by chains and run as a distant busineess rather than a local landlord or landlady. Often WAY overpriced for a crap product but loads of publicity and a standardised product. The Tescos of the pub trade.

So why this and not general retail? Double standards?

Hazza. A member of my family is president of the chamber of commerce in North Germany. He told me that the big businesses are basically forcing the family businesses to either sell up or to go under. 5 years back at least 5 family run spedition companies a week were going under because they could no longer compete with the big boys.

I think that you are looking at all businesses from the perspective of your business. You should know that running a bar is different to running a transport company with 300 employees which is different to running an independent clothes shop, which is different to...the comparisons go on.

If Germany wishes to become a copy of the UK (all the high streets look the same, only big name brands available, poorer choice in virtually every market) then they should de-restrict the trading hours laws and it should be a free for all.

So that is happening despite a Sunday trading ban...

OK then - this kind of protectionism obviously doesn't work

a big point which i always wonder about. a fair few people work sundays evenings nights and god knows what. why should shops be a special thing. fact is they arent open when we the general working public piggin need them and when a few people know they would be able to attract more trade. let the owners decide when and where not some lazy good for nothing responsible for nothing and never having to worry about doing anything proper polititian.

There are parallels between pubs and shops in that a small number of pubs take advantage of the full hours and it is harder for the smaller pubs.

Perhaps 24/7 liscensing should only be available to pubs under X metres?
Perhaps 24/7 liscenses should only be allowed to brewery tied pubs if that brewery agrees to lower it wholesale prices to other pubs or that chain agrees to run a pub in a small town or on an estate?

and? i dont see the high street in munich being that varied or in anyway much more different than one in swindon. and thats without restrictions as harry says. as for the logistic companies if your only competative advantage is your cost you will always run the risk of being shafted by cheaper competition. the last ones i used were abunch of lying bastards and couldnt spell the word service if you gave them a scrable set consisting only of the letters S, C, I, V, R and two Es. adapt survive change and provide something different. same in alot of service industries, you become a commodity in peoples minds and you'll be juddged on price.

That is so delightfully blinkered, such a narrow perspective! I love that you insist allowing freedom of trade hours for retailers is behind everything you associate bad with the UK. It's nearly cute.

Is anyone a movie producer? I copyright this idea.
Bavaria deregulates retail hours. Massive global companies and American franchises invade immediately and suck all the life and culture from the area. Small shops board up their windows and little 'for sale' signs flap in the breeze while hundreds of brits roam around complaining about poor choice. Bavarian families stand bewildered in the streets all lit up with neon and wish, just wish, that one extra shopping day hadn't been granted.

Then some hero can step in (Will Smith?) and order 6 day retail resumes. Large companies quickly move out and all the Bavarians reclaim their identity and clink mass glasses in giddy joy.

The End.

Gids, don't look at Neuhausenerstrasse, look at you local area.
Butchers, ironmongers, greengrocers etc etc, more than in the UK.

Also, this is a Bavarian law and as STB pointed out, outisde of Munich, there is a much higher proportion of independent shops.

I know they are all backward outside the A99 but you need to look at this from more than a Munich perspective innit.

No Marshbot, the bad shopping experience in the UK has other factors in it I think.
One of them is the blinkered idea that everything in the UK is better.
They are letting service slide and there's a danger that Germany might leapfrog them. If it hasn't already.

Again, the word "price" comes up. The big boys can undercut virtually every price offered by the smaller firms and not everyone can afford to pay a premium price to use the local, family company. The family business cannot afford to pay the higher wage for Sunday working by the big boys.

As for spedition, if you are good, have major contracts that the big boys try and nick from you but cannot due to customer loyalty, expect big money for the company(and then you can charge the new owners rent for the warehousing and storage facilities

I have been to Swindon, they have a nice Mcdonalds and Marks&Spencer too, as does Aylesbury, High Wycombe, Inverness etc etc etc

Exactly as you (but not 60% of Bavarians) would like it. Now you can have your Coffee Republic, McD, Burger King, Dunkin Doughnuts etc etc etc. You will have the confidence to go to another part of the world that is steeped in culture and tradition...say, er Australia or New Zealand, and just know that once you hit that high street, you will have 24/7 Coffee Republic, McD, Burger King etc etc.

You will then be able to say..."Man, isn't this great, its just like Munich but with palm trees"

I would like to patent the idea of everything being the same the world over but McD have done that already.

Those households with incomes in the lowest 20 per cent range spend on average 24 per cent of their
income on food and non-alcoholic drinks, alcohol and tobacco and clothing and footwear; whilst those
households with incomes in the highest 20 per cent range spend on average 15 per cent on the same
goods. Low income households would therefore benefit disproportionately from lower retail prices.
In a study of the consumer benefits from increased competition from the entry of supercentres (in
particular Wal-Mart) in the US retail market, Hausman and Leibtag (2005) found that poorer and
minority households benefited the most. Less well off households, with incomes below $10,000,
benefited approximately 50 per cent more than the average for all households.

So more big american chains please, they clearly benefit low-income consumers, the people for whom choice is a luxury they can't afford. And if they're open on Sunday, then even better, because low-income families in employment work the longest hours.

But that has to be compared with car ownership figures; in Europe, far fewer poorer/older people own cars than in America. You need a car to benefit from Wal-Mart.

then why shouldn't there be similar restrictions on sunday retail hours?

Or, and I know this is stretching you a bit, it will be just as it is on the average Saturday, except a little quieter as less places will choose to open, and there will still be little coffee shops, little bakeries (as there are now, even though they can open Sundays if they want!! shock!!), little fast food joints, little second hand stores, little grocers... Why you link Sunday shopping with McD's, Dunkin Doughnuts, loss of culture etc I have no idea.
Does anyone else know anywhere drained of culture simply due to discarding religious Sunday laws?

Anyways, I don't shop on the 'high street', although sometimes if I'm really drunk I might eat McDonalds (regretfully, always).
Even when 24/7 shopping is available, you might be amazed to know that people have the independent thought not to go shopping and they still enjoy their Sundays much as they always have. Some others dare to shop on Sunday and have another day free. A bit wacky I know, but there you have it.

Funny, there are McDonalds, Burger King and Starbucks in Munich even though retail is not allowed on Sundays. Now how on Earth did that happen? Well, I'm stumped. I thought banning Sunday trade would have saved us from all that.

Because relaxation of trading laws and large Multinationals both appeared in the UK at around the same time, some people appear to think there is a link.

Can someone actually substatiate this with some evidence?

Germany already has its share of chain-stores - and that includes the retail sector. I buy nothing from small family corner shops. All my groceries come from Tengelmann or Pennymarkt or Aldi. Sunday trading or not, who actually buys all their groceries from independent stores? When I buy electrical items, I go to Media Markt or Saturn because they have more variety and a better price. When I buy clothes I'll go to Kaufhof (or similar).

Ironically, the only independent, family run businesses I ever frequent are restaurants and döner shops - which are in an industry that allows Sunday trading

How many people can honestly say that they don't shop similarly to me?

yet more chains? isn't walmart closing down cause they couldn't cut it in this country? and do we really want more multinationals selling us manufactured food from the other side of the world? food, low in nutritious content, tasteless, but hey, that's ok for the poor, it's affordable!
this planet is already becoming one big chainstore shopping mall - let's hold on to the diversity in retail here while it still exists. overseas travel would no longer be fun if it just meant visiting cities "just like Munich but with palm trees!" the world could become such a boring place!

Where do you buy your groceries from?

I shop like you Hazza, I tend to use the large shops for shopping, but the family places for eating and enjoying an evening out.

Now, I know this may challenge you, but you may be amazed to know that people that are forced to take low-paid jobs due to circumstance, will actually now have no other choice to work on the Sunday which may well be their only day off.

The boss will come in and say, "OK, Sunday is now a normal working day, you will take Wednesday off but you will now only receive the normal daily rate for Sunday". Well, it may be a little eccentric but the "victim" only gets to see the whole family on Sunday and as their partner only has Sunday off they will not see each other (still, their relationship is strong so what the hell?) After all, it gives you the choice of going shopping for a bag of nails, if you decide to that is)

McDs, Burger King and Starbucks will only be too keen to make Sunday a normal working day and adjust the wages accordingly. If (when) you end up working there then I am only too sure that you will grasp the chance to work on the Sunday for the standard rate in an effort to give everyone the choice of whether to buy a burger off you...or not, as the case may be. You should work in one, you would do well...just dont forget (as you would be the manager, without doubt), if Sunday becomes a trading day, let the staff on the higher sunday wage go, re-employ using Sunday as a normal trading day and then you can pay the normal (poverty) wage to the replacements that work on Sunday. Easy! You will shine!

but that is how restaurants work, and gas stations, the people don't get more pay for sundays. Just like nurses and police don't. It's part of their regular shift.

Sorry, we're talking about giving freedom to operate at whatever time they please to ALL retail. What does multinationals and manufactured food have to do with it. Or nutrients for that matter. Or (not that this makes any sense to the conversation) cities "just like Munich with palm trees"...


Ever get the impression some people are just covering their ears/eyes and going "la,la,la,la,I don't like burgerking!!!,lalala,or starbucks!!la la la"

Could anyone who believes allowing all retailers to operate when they see fit will cause a type of giant corporation armageddon or UK clone city effect on any city answer my question from a previous post? Would this change the tide?

i buy bread, dairy & some basics from the bio markt, meat from the butchers, fruit & veg from the fruit & veg store, many toiletries from a natural cosmetics store, some food & spices from the thai, and what's left (not a lot) I buy from plus. oh, and schlecker for bog roll & household items.
I no longer buy the crap I bought when I lived in the UK where everything came from Sainsburys. ever tried the standard UK supermarket tomato? it's from Holland and tasteless? sometimes i think we have forgotten what real food tastes like!

So now due to sunday trading people are forced to work a 7 day week? If that's what you are implying then you truely are clueless and well out of your league on this conversation.


Sunday IS a normal working day and thus you should be paid as such


This stupid scenario can be applied to any day of the week


As above


This will get moderated, but what the hell. [adminabuse]When was the last time anyone called you a cunt, you condescending fuck.[/adminabuse]

Firstly, the latter half of your post confirms that you do only think in the terms of you industry.

Secondly I buy my meat from the local farm or its store in the Market at Freising. I never buy anything electrical from chains (we even purchased our computer in parts from various small businesses selling parts and my wife stuck it together to make it work). I do not buy clothes in Kaufhof (They do not sell Canali last time I looked ).

"OK, Sunday is now a normal working day, you will take Wednesday off but you will now only receive the normal daily rate for Sunday".

Why is Sunday different than Saturday??? I mean if the worker wants to go to church then I understand why they want it off, but as the memberships at most churches is only declining generally, I would doubt that is the case.

And why is that no cares about the "other" people that have to work on Sunday? Police, Firefighters, Public Transport, Airport Staff, Hospital Staff, and many many more? Why do people only give a shite about the poor shop worker at Plus? If you want to make the argument that people should not work on Sunday that is fine, but please we should all have the day off on Sunday if that is the way you want it to be!

Am I wrong? Tell me Am I wrong?

Eight year olds Dude, eight year olds...

Seriously - those people slagging of the large chain stores, whether it be Walmart or Aldi or Tengelmann or Vinzenzmurr had better do all their shopping at independent stores, or they are contributing to their demise.

And that involves going to the greengrocer for fruit and veg, going to the butcher for meat, going to the local baker for bread, going to the ironmonger?? for nails and other metallic items, etc, whilst making sure that none of these are a part of large chains. Frankly I don't know anyone who could be arsed visiting 10 different shops to do one lot of shopping.

It's nice that you have the time britMUC and that you see that as a priority. But it's hardly the norm.

So there you have the real reason that independent stores are going out of business. At the time people choose to (or have to) go shopping, they are going to choose the place that is most convenient and value for money for them. Most people aren't gonna give the small corner shop that could only supply them with a fifth of what they need a second thought. It's convenience - and this holds true whether shops are open 6 or 7 days a week.

And this couldn't happen to someone working as a cleaner or any other job because why?


They already do. Small coffee shops and fast food places are still open. What's your point?


It's clear you are really getting desperate in this conversation now. Bit sad to sink to school-age style taunting (and, as everyone has been ignoring during this thread, digs at peoples nationalities) so I think it's safe to say you've come to bottom of your barrell of coherent thoughts and are now just rattling at the sides to try and get attention.
Good luck with that. Try again when you have something substantial to add to the conversation. I'd quite like to know more about your reasoning for retail, but your hissy fits about American franchise food outlets probably need a separate thread.

I'm running in circles ...

i believe it is fairly normal here in germany. the locals rarely do a one-stop shop. they shop around looking for quality & price and are prepared to visit a half a dozen stores. even if you go to an aldi, you can't buy everything there, you have to visit several stores.
and it doesn't take a lot of time ... all these stores are practically on my doorstep!!

Can you perhaps tell us how much more expensive it is to shop in those specialty stores?

Not everyone can afford the Bio markt - and even most people who can, choose to go to a supermarket that's cheaper.

Sunday trading isn't to blame for the decline of independent retailers - the writing's been on the wall since the supermarket was invented...

@ canaryman

Also I bet the poor Fuck that made your computer parts, and picked your independent fruit and veg did it on Sudnay as well.

Why in the hell does it matter about the little shop owner? Sorry but I just do not see it, either you have a business case or you don't.

When I buy something from a small shop and get the same shit service as you do in Munich as the big one I might as well save some money while doing it!

If I get Great service from a small shop and the price is close then I would buy from them, but it is on a case by case basis only.

Nope, it's a totally valid point. But it feels a bit like walking into a church and asking them to consider another religion. They can't explain how there can be another religion, or other people who have to work Sundays.

Blank stares, man. The blank stares are freaking me out. And one guys throwing sticks at me now.

I was just taking the lead from your school style taunting, sorry if I have offended you for treating like with like.

Where'd you buy your fridge from? did you build it yourself from parts, or go to a specialty fridge shop?

@ canaryman or BritMUC

Can you please make a good reply to my first post?

I think if you could then that would end this debate.

...

Also, can anybody please show me where the link is between declining small business and Sunday trading?

valid point, but then again I did not buy it on a Sunday

And what about those evil internet traders that are putting real shops out of buisness? I hear they are open for buisness even on bank holidays

bio isn't as expensive as it used to be, and even though some products are more expensive, well, i just cut out the crapy stuf that I would probably buy at a no-frills supermarket. in the end, probably no more expensive at all and healthier too!
and i disagree, sunday trading & dominant multinationals do contribute to the decline of independent retailers - yes, the writing's been on the wall since the supermarket was invented, but at least here in germany, 60% of people have pretty much said enough is enough!!

and i disagree, sunday trading & dominant multinationals do contribute to the decline of independent retailers

RIGHT

but nothing to back it up... well sad to say but there is no opposition on this point.

Buy the way you are a Multi-National in Germany taking a job away from a native German.

Shame Shame

Obviously multinationals do, but how does Sunday trading?

Oh if only, if only.
It's taken gazillions of pages just to get slightly beyond the point of talking about how much we dislike big stores (and apparently the UK in general). Now we come close to the actual question being asked, how/why is retail different - and it's just turning into a Big Mac with extra cheese. Still haven't got an answer from anyone.
I was hoping Monkstown might tackle it, he's been fairly logical so far, but it seems he's wandered off (probably gone shopping).

"Buy" the way...See, you have have been indoctrinated already!!

If you check the thread, you will see your question about the "services" has been answered. If you feel that they are not adequate then I will explain later, speaking from a perspective of an ex-serviceman.

So then you agree that the advent of the supermarket is causing the decline of small traders.

Where does Sunday trading come into this?

And why is this always about Retail Shopping and the little guy.

Would you also fly the small airline that charges more. For some reason services never some into play...

There are lots of little guys out there other than retail shopping to support.

canaryman

Where please for the love of god where...

Sorry, but the people in favour of keeping shops closed on Sundays have not come up with one single argument that holds any water for continuing the ban.

The closest was britMUC, who honestly, but rather selfishly wants the streets to be clear of anyone making any sort of noise and also admitted it was good because it stopped him from entering shops and spending money.

If people want to make a claim that Sunday trading causes small business to close, then please back it up with some figures or some believeable evidence. Worker protection laws already stop people from getting exploited - they are enacted for people who already work on Sundays now and there are no problems.