No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

That's because some people *choose* not to do that stuff, it's all about choice. btw take one Sunday off to go and look around the New Forest in the UK, you'll see plenty of families having a good time. And the best bit, they stop at their Sainsburys Local on the way home to pick up dinner

So basically, you want to control how other people live their lives. That's just plain selfish.

Also, nobody is being 'forced' to work. I have already told you how many people come looking for jobs and are happy to work on any day available. In fact, if I did close one day a week, I would be taking work away from people who want to work.


Well if you're gonna argue that, then they may as well shut down completely. That way they can have every day off without competing with the 'big boys'.

And why not allow them to decide their own Ruhetag? That way they still get a day off if they wish, but can allow for a little more flexibility as to when they do it.

No - but that is my niche market. Other bars have cheap cocktails or live music or whatever they think will attract custom.

Small business needs to be innovative or at least offer something that is demanded to survive. If you can't do that, then I'm sorry, but you should not be in business.

Absolute bullshit.
There is one day a week when RETAILERS do not have to open. Yet everyone else still closes for weekends.. or not, as they see fit, and you don't see the whole non-retail population forced into work on Sundays (nor worry about their family time, as if people need to have family days dictated to them!).
Do you have Sundays off? But surely, the company would force you to work Sundays if the law allowed them to? It's competiton...right?
You don't see parents forced to work Sundays in countries where retailers have unregulated hours either. From what I've experienced you only get the benefits of more flexible hours to work and more jobs.

Where do these idea's come from? I mean, really???

Just answer this, please... how is it different to any other business or trade? Why would mum or dad HAVE to work Sundays or late nights in retail but not in any other trade or business? How exactly do you figure this? What's different? Because people like to shop in the UK?? People like to eat too, but you wouldn't tell people who work in the food service industry they can't have jobs on Sundays.

When I was a lad, I used to work in Dixons. Sunday was always really busy in terms of people monging around as if we were a museum, but in terms of income it was the quietest day of the week. Obviously, though, we had to open just to keep up with the competition.

This was a decade ago, and I remember thinking even back then how tragic it was that so many people were wandering up and down Oxford Street with nothing better to do. They weren't even buying anything -- they just lacked the intelligence or the imagination to do something more interesting.

So, why bring it up to prove your point then. Do you actually mean that you have no idea what goes on or were you just taking a guess. If you bring something up to illustrate your point, you may well be quoted on it.

Hazza, by using the word "force" do you mean that people will not actually be "shot" so as to speak or do you mean that there circumstances will never force them to do so. If it is the latter then I beg to differ.

So it's our civic duty to help them be more interesting???

Language!

It was in response to you constantly referring to UK. Both quotes illustrate I don't think you are talking about retail hours, but about general shopping culture.

Basically. As don_riina said earlier, we need laws to protect the stupid from themselves.

wow ... never before seen blokes so into shopping as in this thread!!

Personal circumstances may 'force' someone to work on a Sunday - if they desperately need the money for example. In that way, allowing them to work actually helps them.

I try not to force anyone to work on any particular day. It has occured, where due to staff shortages, I have told someone they must work on a particular day - or at least strongly encouraged them to do so. However, this is not limited to Sunday. It is the same in other jobs too. How many people have had leave denied them because there was an important project on at the time?

Marshbot works for me and can attest to it. You may have noticed that she is also a strong advocate of working on Sundays, even though she is often rostered to work then. My staff generally work 3-4 shifts per week and would probably do more shifts if the work was available.

Only if they are going to harm themselves or others. If people wanna hang around and aimlessly browse through shops all Sunday, then who am I to tell them that they can't?

I reckon this is what would happen in retail. Staff doing 3-4 shift would take an extra shift rather than new job creation in itself.

Hey, that's what my mum and sister seem to do on *any* day, not just Sunday

when I first arrived in Munich 15yrs ago I must confess I was a bit astonished the shops were shut on Sundays. back then they closed at 1pm on Saturdays and 5pm during the week too however, I quickly got used to it, that's just how it is here. it absolutely doesn't bother me that the shops're closed on Sundays, I can think of plenty of other things I'd rather do than shop on a Sunday anyway. (Munich's a fab city, there's loads to do!)
while I can understand that many of us who are used to Sunday opening may feel very inconvenienced, it does seem that the most residents are happy with the way things are.
at least they're open 6 days a week until 8pm!

Why should that have been so surprising? Fifteen years ago there was no Sunday trading in Britain either. The Sunday Trading Act wasn't introduced until 1994.

with globalization, standardization and everything much becoming the same no matter where in this 24/7 world, is it really so bad to hold on to the tradition of a quiet sunday by choosing to take things easy just one day a week? do we really want sundays to feel like mondays? i don't think so.

eh, I had a weekend shop assistant's job in Blackpool when I was 15 in 1986 at BHS so how can that be???
hence the surprise.

I am just reminded of the dreadful long-lines, pedestrian traffic jams etc that will greet us in Nov/Dec on the weekends in the city centre.

A rebellious plan . . .
An alternative to not having shopping hours extended -- people need a "pass" to visit shops on the weekends especially before the holidays. Those who can shop during the week (i.e. retirees, unemployeed) can take advantage of the time during the week, leaving the Saturday free for those who have to slave full-time or longer during the week.

hmm...hate to see the response...

But they won't be different. that's the point. It's one small group of businesses who are not allowed to trade, this doesn't mean they will all open or that Sunday traditions will change or that Sundays will feel like Mondays.
It's not that new of an idea (unless you are Bavarian I guess).
If you really want to go back to quiet Sunday traditions then go the whole hog and ban ALL work on a Sunday.

Yes, but they would earn more, wouldn't they? And potentially stop them from looking for a 2nd job elsewhere - thus freeing up that job for someone else.

And if they didn't want to do the extra shift, then it can be given to a student once a week.

Whether you create new jobs, or expand existing jobs is not that much of a difference.

Would you have to work on Sundays if the shops were open?

For that matter, do you work on Saturdays? The shops are open then too and you'll find that most people still have that day off, as most offices are shut then.

it's not a question of whether or not i personally have to work - i would prefer not to have the hussle & bussle of shoppers around on a sunday. sunday feels lighter, an exception to the week ... why let that go and replace it with a busy bustling munich full of sunday shoppers? and coming up to christmas, that would just be hell!
i don't get the "need" to shop around the clock ... why is it really so important to shop on sundays also? i doubt it's really got much to do with "democratic rights" for there are certainly many more worthy causes!

Do you hang out in the city centre or near the OEZ, or the Riem Arcaden for that matter on a Sunday and like to see how everything is closed?

Go to the English gardens or one of the many lakes surrounding Munich on a Wednesday afternoon when all the shops are open and you won't see any of that hustle and bustle of shoppers that you so despise - even in the week before X-Mas!!

Nobody's taking their kids out for a Sunday arvo strolling through where there are just a load of closed shops.

disagree, germans window shop on a sunday alright, even though the shops are closed. just take a walk down kaufingerstr. but they dont come in from the surrounding areas in hoardes to look at closed shops. but that would probably happen on a sunday if stores were open in the city, especially coming up to christmas.

i don't despise the hussle & bussle in the city, it's just nice NOT to have it on one of seven days!! i don't need to live in the tranquility of the english gardens or rural bavaria, and why should I have to head off there for peace & quiet just because some people consider it their essential democratic right to shop on my doorstep on a sunday? i am happy to live in munich, in the city, the way it is right now. munich has a great mix of busy city & quiet, they call it the big village, right? why turn something unique into a 24/7/365 shopping mall?

if you want to shop on a sunday, there's always hauptbahnhof, the worldwide web (probably a better selection of goods than you'll get at Riem Arcaden anyway) or go to the airport !! why destoy local tradition & culture just because you want more more more !!!

I think you're confusing us with people who want to shop.
I certainly wouldn't make use of Sunday trading, except maybe to pick up some picnic food on my way to the park.
I just don't agree with singling out retailers and denying them the rights to trade based on an old religious idea when every other business can operate when they choose.

Just tell me why exactly retail businesses should be treated differently? Apart from the fact you personally don't want to go shopping, why shouldn't they be allowed to open their store late or Sundays?

Also, you keep ignoring the fact, they won't ALL open on Sundays just because they can.

I'm certainly not ignoring that fact. The vast majority of stores in Germany are family-run, and virtually none of them will open on a Sunday. They'll open up on Monday morning and wonder why they suddenly have far fewer customers. Turns out they all went to Wal-Mart the day before.

So people should be limited in how they earn their livelihood, because you don't want people hanging around where you live. That's selfish

If that's the case, then you aren't suited for city life.

Are there any bars or restaurants in your area? Coz if there are, then people probably hang around these. Does that annoy you too? How about a neighbour who wants to use Sundays to do a few repairs around the home and bangs a few nails into the wall?

And what is this local culture that's in such danger of being destroyed? Are people going to stop going to beergardens if shops open on Sundays?

People are saying that Sunday trading won't be introduced in Munich for many years to come. I disagree. If the issue keeps getting brought up in Government, which it has regularly in the 5+ years that I've been here, then it's on the way.

And guess what? The city isn't going to turn into a nasty hell-hole and slave labour won't be introduced as a result...

...After which they'll start opening on Sundays and have the Monday off instead - or hire a student to work on the Sunday, while they still have a day off.

And how much should they pay that student, and how much does it cost in terms of heating and electricity to keep the shop open? And how much additional income will they generate? Answer: lots, nothing, respectively.

Yeah, if we lived in a dramatic Hollywood movie that might be the case. But it's not. It's just like every other little business who competes with big ones. It's been done in other countries in fact so you don't even need to make dire futuristic predictions.

But I ask again, why do you think retail business would suffer but others not. Why are they different?

Why hire students? Is this because they are cheap labour and are "forced" to work all hours etc just to give them a half decent standard of living.

The major cost for any business is rent. Rent is not covered on any day that a business has to be shut. Electricity is a negligible cost. Things like refrigiration need to be on whether a business is open or not. Electricity used for lighting is a small cost. Wages for this kind of job are very low. You can hire someone on a €400 basis. That will likely cover 4 Sundays in a month. If you cannot cover this additional low cost on a Sunday - when people have more time to shop, then you have probably already shut down...

People that work for that sort of wage will most likely be "forced" by circumstance to do so and you say will have to work all 4 Sundays in the month. Not many would willingly work every Sunday for that wage unless they had an absolute need to.

I sincerely hope that I never have to have those sort of hours and wages forced upon myself.

Looking at the road haulage laws over here, whereby you must have a special licence to move goods on a Sunday, why is it the whole storage and delivery system has not collapsed? (there are no such rules like this in the UK and they seem to think everything would fall apart if they had a similar law pushed upon them)?

Because they study during the week, and thus can't earn money. Weekend work allows them to have some sort of a social life. That was my case anyway and I'm sure it applies to loads of people, I was more than willing to work weekends

no, that's the way it is now and i don't hear many complaints from the locals. remember, 60% apparently want it to stay this way. except, that is, for a number of english speaking expats who think that city life isn't real city life unless it's got the 24/7 buzz of london, new york, sydney.


hey, chill out, perhaps take it easy this sunday. then you may not find the need to make judgements about people you quite frankly don't know!


lots of bars & restaurants in my area. last thing i want is a bunch of early morning sunday shoppers on top of it. like i said before, i like it the way it is.


maybe. the culture is one where ideals are according to a social democratic system, as opposed to the wreckless persuit of capitalism. we live here, we have to respect it. i happen to like it.

To answer your questions. Minimum wage would be fine, as with other types of businesses not in retail. Heating and electricity? - well, it's offset by the profits made by having the shop open (duh). Additional income? Enough to make it worth their while, otherwise they wouldn't bother opening. Simple really. No different to why a little döner shop will decide to close at 8pm or stay open until 11. (Assuming you would allow that, of course).

Don't know about you, but I've been the student working for little family owned shops and they all seemed to be quite happy with the arrangement and doing quite nicely. Don't recall any of them moaning about people wanting to buy off them on a Sunday. They had competition from the malls mon to fri, as well as weekends. Didn't bother them as long as money was coming through their till, the more days the better.

I don't know how much money you earn, but obviously more than enough if you ponce around in a Range Rover Sport. You may forget that €100/day is a lot for some people, I would happily work for that...I work for far less as it is.


Good for you, you've clearly demonstrated that you have no clue about the real world if you feel that people feel forced to work for that kind of income.

forget to respond to the question about a neighbour who wants to use Sundays to do a few repairs around the home and bangs a few nails into the wall?

great example!! he can hammer all he wants Mon to Sat at 7am in the morning ... but thank god he can't hammer at 7am on a sunday morning. that's what makes sunday special.

Students are more flexible when they can and will work.

They are also far more likely to be happy working only 1 day per week. So if a family is working the shop on their own for 6 days a week, they can't expect someone who has to support a family to be available for only 1 day of work...

who are you referring to there? No one on this board has made that kind of comment. I certainly don't agree with it. Ugh, would hate to live in any of those cities, I'm not suited for that kind of pace. Munich is great, much slower, relaxed. But what's that got to do with it? Why would spreading the shoppers over more days make the city buzzier rather than slow it down even more (which, if any change, is what I would expect).

Can you answer why retail should be different to other small businesses.

Less than motivated student part time staff on the minimum wage who have absalutely no fucking idea what they are doing is one of the things that makes shopping in the UK such a fucking nightmare.


We are not talking about small businesses alone.
We are talking about small local shops v the big multinational chains.

Timmeh already pointed this out, but €100 for a days work is not bad. Even less than that is fine if people are willing to do it. Demand for jobs is pretty high and I reckon a lot of students would love the extra cash. Again - if you can't make that money on a Sunday, then your business is failing anyway.

So you wouldn't have one on the till at your local shop. How hard is that job?

I wrote my thesis on the subject of the Ladenschlußgesetz. Rescinding the law is good for small businesses and good for the economy. It allows small businesses to compete against the large stores in service because they can't compete in price. It provides the ability to make unrushed as well as last-minute purchases.

If, for some reason, a bunch of people all show up and you decide to have a party, without the LSG you can actually go out and get drinks after 8pm, and a lot cheaper than the €2/bottle that bars charge.

The same bitching about "saving our culture" went on in the UK in the years leading up to the removal of all closing laws. Britain's culture has gone down the shitte, but not due to the shops, only the cameras and removal of privacy and personal rights. Few people have anything negative to say about the corner market being open at 2:00a.m. Most are quite happy that such things now exist in the UK.

Th Einzelhandelsverband is fucking thrilled about this, with good reason, and that's a bit surprising since the president of it in 1993 was dead set against changes to the even harsher LSG back then. He lived in Regensburg and I interviewed him for more than an hour, then talked with him for another two in preparation for writing my thesis. He used Britain as an example back then and we agreed to disagree.

I turned out to be right. Dropping the closing laws (which were began in Britain in 1377) helped Britain's economy, provided more jobs, provided much more convenience, and saved the small shops from being run out of business by Safeway, Teesco's et al.

woof.

OK sorry, I'll rephrase. So how are small retail shops different from small businesses, and large retail shops different from large businesses? Why do only the retailers have to obey the traditional no trading on Sunday rule when all the others have been allowed to adapt as they see fit.

Sounds like you'd made your mind up before you even started researching the thesis.


So where are they all?

Anyway - with the amount of times the government has debated this, I think it will happen sooner rather than later.

It's just a few old cronies holding out in the CSU...

You have staff in UK stores who don't know the names of standard vegetables.

You have staff in UK stories who don't know what basic products they sell.

You have staff in in UK stores when you ask why they have 4 staff shooing customers out of the shop at 1720 rather than assisting helpless single colleague on the till answer with "this is a shop, of course you are going to have to queue".

You have staff who at 1715 refuse to let you try on a pair of trousers as they close at 1730.

You have staff who try and refuse to accept non UK issued credit cards even after you have explained to them 3 times they can take them.

All true stories I've experienced and a direct result of having unmotivated staff paid minimum wage.

Give me an albeit slightly grumpy middle aged German shop assistant ANYDAY.