No lengthening of shop opening hours in Bavaria

Good thing the whole city doesn't grind to a halt on Sunday through outdated, forced trading bans otherwise you wouldn't have much choice of what to do. Be a bummer if you couldn't buy petrol or take public transport. Come to think of it, I'd quite like a day of the week where the streets were totally empty of traffic. Ban!

why on earth should i leave Munich? it's perfect as it is, Sundays are relatively quiet. I also like Munich the rest of the week too. But, I do like Sundays, they are different, quieter from the rest of the days in the week and I like to keep it that way.
BTW are you suggesting that I should uproot and leave the city just so that the big department stores can make a few extra bucks on a sunday? remember, people live in this city, in its centre. it's what makes munich great, unlike many uk & us cities which are no-go areas after shop-closing time. we have to have a fair trade-off between the people who live in the cities and the commerce that wants to make the big bucks here. i believe we already have this balance.

That is the dumbest rebuke to an argument I've ever seen.

Do you claim that over 50% of Germans are involved in either watching or playing rugby? Common sense should tell you that it's way less.

Nope!
Cos of my own oberservations of the Czech and Slovak retail sector over the last decade I can see smaller shops closing by the score and Tesco gobbling up market share. Most of the new stores of course are primarily edge of town box stores innit.

If you read the thread JN, you'd see that more "freedom of choice" often ends up with much less of it.

Freedom of choice for what? People are exercising their freedom of choice by shopping at Tesco. And if the small shops all get gobbled up, then what? It's obviously because the large chains offer a wider variety of goods at a better price.

Supermarkets still need to hire staff, so there's not going to be an increase in unemployment. If you really want to own a small business then you should have to look for a market niche. Tesco doesn't sell everything. The government should not be focussing on propping up failing businesses

But how much choice does a shopper have where 2 or 3 chains control over 75% of the retail market and use their position to undercut any competition.

There is no such thing as a totally unregulated market.
The level to which government's should control markets is a matter for debate but that they should leave everything purely to the market is an opinion, not a fact.

I have made no such claim about rugby. You made the claim and then said "I don't know" so I would hazard a guess that as you made the sweeping claim and now say that you actually do not know, I am not the dimmer of we two "jousters".

Still, I do like that there is one day that is quiet, families still get together (including those that would otherwise have to work) and enjoy themselves.

What we both "know" is that 60% of those questioned agreed with the latter, aforementioned statement and that they have won the day. You, personally, can now have all your friends around and debate it 'til your hearts content next Sunday, after-all, none of you will be working

The supermarkets in the UK are better, however the overall shopping experience its worse as you say Monkstown. The high street in the average UK town is now just full of all the same boring ass shops. This is certainly why there needs to be some more control, but extending opening hours so people can open on a Sunday for a few hours shouldn't turn Germany in to the UK.

But they onyl control 75% of the shopping in that city because everyone goes there in the first place. If suddenly they started selling really crap expensive meat, then I'm pretty sure at least one bright spark would have the idea of opening up a butchers shop selling decent meat.

OK - so where is the lack of choice? If there is demand for something, then smaller stores will start stocking those items to cover the gap. There are Asian specialty stores all over the place that sell items that you can't get from the large chains. Do you really have to buy your milk and washing powder from a small corner shop? Why?


You are deliberately missing the point of what I said. If you don't understand it, and have to get pedantic over whether 5% or 10% or even 20% of Germans watch rugby, then it's not really worth explaining to you.


Oh no - I'll be working

No; the British can't judge quality, so they get rubbish for medium prices. People shop at Tesco because they are too lazy to go to a butchers, and then down the road to a bakers, and then on the greengrocers... Two hours, once a week is all the time the average Brit is prepared to devote to food shopping, and the results can be seen in the clone towns and the poor quality food.

Bang on. My wife travels from a far as Tel-Aviv to Stavanger (sp) on business for many years now (though she does not have as many tales to tell as the graduates that did a few months travelling in the wilderness) and she is constantly amazed at how many Tesco and Walmart stores there are. It will come as no suprise that most countries, in the "main" areas, have McD, BK, KFC, Sbucks etc etc and it is actually difficult to purchase something "local". What do we have is "cloning", the same choice in every country and all the areas start to look the same.

People from countries that have a lack of history and tradition probably think this is absolutely wonderful ("I did my going local bit during my year out where is McD and Walmarts?") but most people prefer to be able to go to somewhere new where things are different and therefore you have a greater choice. IMO.

As a niche business perhaps SBGG27 but not going back to the days when every town had several competing butchers shops.

A whole array of changces into the way the argo/meat industry has developed over the last decade or two has seen to that. Owain G has written some stuff on it and it has been widely reported in Private Eye.

Morons don't deserve the right to choose for themselves.

The likes of my German in-laws who live way east of the A99 in Niederbayern are horrified by the idea of shopping on Sundays. Their local Minimal basically is as rocking as a mortuary come 2pm because the locals get up Saturdays at early o'clock - like they've always done - and have their shopping done before the midday churchbell tolls. And so between 2pm and 8pm Saturdays it's usually just the cashier there - coz Sepp and Hilda are already at home enjoying the weekend.

It won't change for a while to come anyway coz the citizens of CSU-country like it just the way it is. Passt scho!

I say leave it the way it is. Otherwise Sunday will end up being like every other day.

Jaysus, thought I was bad having in-laws in Regensburg!

I still don't get how Sunday trading is the cause of that.

If that really is the problem, then why not introduce a law to only allow small independent traders to open on Sundays. That way they will get the full market share on Sunday and gain an actual advantage over large chains. If independent grocers could stay open until 10pm on weeknights and open on Sundays, it would actually give these shops a tangible advantage over the large chains.

As is, the opening hours are the same for everyone - allowing everyone to open for an extra day will give everyone the same advantage again.

You made the statistical claim to back up your point, you back up your claim. It is no good quoting a statistic and then, when challenged, saying that you actually do not know (that you just made it up).

Well, if you are working, then as you think Sundays should be a working day, you will be very happy about that fact (or is it sour grapes and boy do I know about sour grapes, I have at least 20 Australian relatives spread between Perth and Sydney)

It's not sour grapes. It's my own business and I have chosen to work Sundays, because I like the Sunday crowd and because there's fuck all else to do in this city on a Sunday - particularly in winter

If you'd read the thread Hazza you'd see I suggested perhaps allowing shops to open on a Sunday that had less than X metres of shop floor space.

But thereby hangs the issue, it's the big chains that are pushing for it, not the small retailers.

Painfully true. I moan about the krouts being tight fisted little arseholes, and buying "food" from Aldi purely because its cheap, but thats exactly the motivating factor for most English people buying meat. Hormone pumped genetic screwup chickens produced in sheds in 4 weeks, that can be sold as cheap as chips.

Supermarkets have crushed loads of smaller business in the UK, its simply undeniable. Yep, you have to be agile in business, its constantly changing, you have to compete etc, but when the market is so stupid that it does not uderstand the long-term problems of eating shite (massive rise in obesity in England) then Joe the butcher selling free range chickens that simply cost a shitloads more to produce is fucked, because he is not competing against Tesco, he's competing against mass ignorance. Thing is, Joe won't pick up bits of random offcut meat from his shop floor, puree them up with guts, and charge you for it under the guise of turkey twizzlers. Supermarket will. Thats the only area for me where government should intervene - to protect people from their own inherent stupidity.

So, you cannot go out with friends and family, kith and kin, visit somewhere you have to work? There is absolutely loads to do in Munich on Sunday but it is best enjoyed with friends.

I felt the same when I was first here but after about 4 or 5 months I settled down and thoroughly enjoy the Sundays. When I returned to the UK for a visit (2 years ago) I hated the Sunday as it was like every other day of the week. I felt quite sad actually.

If you do not mind me asking, what is you line of business that enables you to open on a Sunday?

Well then, the small retailers are pretty stupid then. If they wanted a day off, then they could do a ruhetag on a Tuesday (when they will lose out to the larger chains anyway), thus maintaining their 6 day week without giving up the advantage of Sunday trading

There certainly used to be plenty of smallish pubs in Munich that shut on a weekday innit.
but they are under a lot f preassure right now...

Munich expats are getting more and more pampered

Try living in Belgium (or other similar countries with the same situation) whereby shopping streets and downtown becomes ghost town after 6.30 in the evening! (pubs and restaurants are still open but i have no interest in them) NOT TILL 8PM like in Marienplatz!

Getting a haircut requires a day or two appointment in advance! I miss those days when getting to OEZ and simply have my hair cut without much fuss or even an appointment.

I own a pub and in winter it is one of the most profitable days - with all the sports that are on. It would devastate my business if I could not be open.

I can meet my friends on other days and nights. I don't see why I have to do that on Sundays.

What day would I shut on?

The fact is that the rent and other costs mean that it is not smart to have a ruhetag. Obviously, there are days when I have the day off. Sometimes they are Sundays, sometimes they aren't.

I have staff that can take care of things if I don't go in.

We're talkin Landkreis Passau here. It involves a drive along the legendary Totesstrecke B12. Towns around here simply become lifeless from 1pm Saturday. Can be depressing...

Excellent, a couple with kids work in retail. Husband is told he now has to work Sunday and he can have Wednesday off, she is told she has to work on Saturday but can have Thursday off. Superb arrangement for family life eh?

Wrap up warm and go for a walk in the English Garden or along the Isar, have a tetrapak of Glühwein ready for when you get back or stop at a kiosk on the way.

Go for a swim at the Müllerisches Volksbad.

Meet friends and go to the cinema and cocktails afterwards

Go to one of the museums, some are cheaper or free on Sundays.

Go round and see your mates and spend some relaxed quality time with them.

Go and have a bath with someone you fancy, bubbles and candles etc.

A friend of mine used to close her pub on Mondays.
But the fact is with the preassure in the end she HAD to open on Mondays to get any possible trade.
So her income per hours worked fell and fell. She packed it in and works in a shop now for more money at the end of the month.

Similar to snmall UK cornershops I think.

So when you went into the Pub business, you did not realise it was not a 9-5 mon to fri job???

Sorry but it sounds like sour grapes ("I have to work Sunday so so should everyone else").

You talk about not being forced into things but did anyone force you into your chosen trade without your full knowledge of the working hours?

I'm in Haidmühle in Landkreis Freyung-Grafenau now and again at the weekend and head back via Passau. There be dragons!

Man, that must bite, only having one day to do the quiet, family thing. You should try not to let retail hours have so much affect on your lifestyle.
Also, people still have weekends off even in freaky land where shops are open on Sundays. The main difference would probably just be a couple of young students at cash registers in town instead of hanging around the park staring at you.
Personal family day or free time desires shouldn't be a detriment to anyone else. Your family isn't any more important than the next persons, except they might need the extra money.

To be fair, I agree, it is nice when the streets are quiet and there's no one about, but I don't value it above the rights of other people's choice, and just because 60% have voted to prevent choice to a minority doesn't make it right.

Don't base everything on the UK. Other places allow Sunday trading and guess what... Sundays are still family days! Shocking, I know, but there you go.

Weird you automatically assume someone will be off work next Sunday though. How do you figure that? Are they in retail?

Bad Griesbach is where I wind down after a gruesome quarterly drive on the Todesstrecke B12. Even in summertime all you hear is the odd cow moo. It's a Kurgebiet. So it's generally populated by elderly folk with dodgy bones, trying to play golf.

So no, I don't think folk here would even notice if the shops opened Sundays.

For all those opposed to religious people influencing this law and that did happen, suppose you are OK about giving up your public holidays for Easter, 1st novermber, Happy Kadaver, Christmas and MariaPimmelfart?

If they really wanted to, they could still shut on Sundays - nobody's forcing them to do anything else. Anyways, if the Ruhetag is on Tuesday, then the whole family has the day off. Kids finish school at around lunchtime anyway, so there's still most of the day left.


Of course I knew it wasn't a Mon-Fri job. I'm not stupid. And why is it sour grapes? I'm not suggesting everyone has to work on Sundays. I'm suggesting that if other businesses feel that they would like to, then they should be allowed to.

I have enough staff who are happy and willing to work on Sunday. Apart from my staff, I get an average of 1 person a week looking for work. Finding someone to cover that shift is no problem at all.

I could work Monday-Friday night, but like having time off during the week as well. I have gone through phases where I didn't work weekends. But at the moment, I really don't mind it at all.

All this talk about Tesco spoiling all the small towns is pathetic.

Take a small town like Great Dunmow near where I used to live, after they ( Tesco) opened the poor quality local traders closed and the town went through a short period of delapidation. Now if you go there all the old buildings have been done up the small local businesses are booming it has 2 very busy butchers shops cafes & wine bars and it is thriving. They still charge for car parking but it is free at Tesco. in my opinion in the medium and long term tesco has brougt the life back to Dunmow.

I think you will find this more or less the same all over Britain.some quicker than others.

There will always be places that are on long term decline whatever is done.

The pub in Haidmühle where I go for a pint still has a painting of Gross Opa in his uniform from the "good old days" on the wall. Landlady's son is quite cute mind.

"Dude", I am English and only left 3 years ago so I am fully aware (as you are apparently not) about what goes on on a Sunday in the UK.

If your idea of a family day is dragging the kids around Tesco followed by B&Q and maybe MFI then I suggest you will enjoy the UK to the "max".

Try and see an extended family together, try and see the woods, parks etc full of families on a Sunday, you do not (not on the levels you see here).

Don't base everything on what the soothsayers tell you about how wonderful the "family" Sundays are in the UK. Guess what...Sundays are a normal working day in the UK! Shocking, I know, but there you go

p.s ( I will try and dig out the survey about the numbers of residents leaving the UK (which is considerably higher than here, despite the wonderful UK economy and quality of life, then you can figure out why this is so.)

what happens when you do mind but the Wetherspoons next door is open 24/7 and is selling 20% cheaper than you?

But the point is - who's forcing you to go shopping on Sunday?

Do you have some kind of disorder whereby you cannot control your urges of having to go shopping when the shops are open? So the only way you can have a family day is for the shops to remain shut.

Then I get my staff to do the shift for me. If they don't want to, then I get the students who come in looking for work to do those shifts.

If Wetherspoons opens next to me, then there's nothing I can do about it - Sunday trading or not. I will have to to something to continue attracting business - whether I match the price or something else.

As far as I remember, Wetherspoons has no music and no sports. They don't do quiz nights or anything else out of the ordinary so we'd be fine anyway

This is what happens when I have a busy meeting day. Hundreds of posts. Next you'll be wanting to post 24x7x52. Even on Christmas and New Year. Suckers for punishment.

Exactly - maybe TT should be shut down on Sundays. After all, people post here when they could be having a fucking picnic or something.

You can always replace those holidays with non-religious ones like other countries do.

I no don't consider Christmas or Easter religious holidays just like I don't consider Halloween a pagan holiday. They've morphed into something that doesn't even resemble what the celebration was intented to represent.

What has happenend in the UK and in Munich is that pubs (and shops) have stayed open longer to try and get as much of the business as possible. But they haven't made more turnoever so the owners have had to work longer ie for less.

Small businesses can't match the big boys prices, particuarly if they are tied to breweires (The Arc is very lucky not to be. )

Yeah, you can do sport and quiz nights etc or for shops home deliveries or whatever to try and give added value. But the big boys are very rapacious and its often down to price. My local in the Uk is 40% dearer that JD Weatherspoons!

No one is forcing me to but I am forced to put up with the commotion of the people that do, the people that do not want to work will have to. There is one day a week when people can have a family day without being told that they now have to work, one day that the local family business does not have to open in order to try and compete with the big boys, one day.

Why do you think it is the big businesses that are forcing the issue but the smaller businesses and the 60% of the population do not want it.

As for urges to shop. I decide what I want before I buy it, I then buy it. Simple. No browsing, no meandering and definitely no thinking "thank god that the shops are open, I am so lame brained and friendless that I cannot think what else I would do with myself"

Exactly, and who have we to thank for that (yep, the same people that tried to push "Aunties day, Uncles day" etc etc in order to make a fast buck. It is the same concept as the highstreets being morphed into something that is exactly the same wherever you go.

Well if someone big wanted to open in Munich, then I'm pretty sure they wouldn't choose Schraudolphstrasse to drive me in particular out of business!!

Anyway, we would certainly lose turnover if we could not open on Sundays. As I said, Sundays are when most sports are on and things like the NFL, Football and rugby would mean that we would lose a lot of money that will otherwise not be recouped. Nobody would say - well, I didn't get to see the rugby on Sunday, so I'll just go and have drink at The Arc on Monday instead.

So, if there were no sports on a Sunday, all the bars would be out of business??

I have no interest in what does or doesn't go on during a Sunday in the UK. It has nothing to do with retailers right to do business. I could counter each example of annoying shopping culture there with something contrary from NZ where retail hours have been unregulated for ages. Any Canadians or Americans lived with Sunday retail and still do the end of week chill out thing? One doesn't cancel out the other.
NZ'ers still consider Sundays traditional family days, go to park, hang with friends, bla bla. We don't have the mad shopping hysteria you describe going on like the UK and don't need to find reasons to spend time with each other.
Don't blame it on Sunday trading, other countries can manage it quite well. Maybe it's a culture thing, but it has absolutley nothing to do with retailers work hours. (Perhaps look to the TV or other media for more clues about where so called clone stores come from?)
I can't imagine someone leaving UK who is considering settling in any other country goes "yes, but do they allow retail stores to open on Sundays? Dire situation that, seen how it turns out, won't stand for it.".