Suicide - would/could you kill yourself?

The reason I'm bringing this up is *not* because I'm personally thinking of it, or anything.
Since I started taking the tablets I'm absolutely fine

But I felt really ill at the weekend (still do, in fact), and got to surfing the internet to look up my symptoms. And as you do, I decided that I couldn't possibly be coming down with a bad dose of the flu but instead it's bound to be multiple sclerosis (the symptoms fit ), and I was doomed... hmmmm.

So, would you get yourself put down if you had a terminal illness, or would you cling on to get every last drop out of life, even if the quality of it was worse than you'd been used to?

And is it morally wrong generally to commit suicide?

I really take issue with people who say "suicide is the most selfish thing a person can do"

yeah, eating your last Rollo is the most selfish thing you can do

Are most people who commit suicide people who have a terminal disease? That certainly wasn't my impression.

This is an uplifting topic for a Monday morning...

Ouch - this is a scary topic. I lost a friend to suspected suicide, and when going through a similiar situation as she had a year later, I could understand what might have been going through her mind. However, I kept thinking if I do this, what will I miss? Suicide is so final, and I'm too curious to see what might happen in the future.
Never thought about the terminal illness thing.

Well here is a bright and chipper topic to start off the week

I know several persons or the family members of persons who have commited suicide in the prime of their life, due to depression. Though I can empathize with their pain, the destruction they leave behind in the lives of their families and friends is horrid and ongoing.

One must be in tremendous pain to contemplate killings oneself, but for MOST persons the veil of severe depression will lift, and life will seem worth living again. It is only too sad that somehow these persons at highest risk sometimes fall through the cracks, and are not intensively helped and/or institutionalized when they are at most risk to themselves. Too often about $$$. When you are feeling that pained, I would suspect it is not a question about whether it is moral or not, as one can not see past their own darkness and lack of hope.

I also deal with the issue of terminally sick persons, both with my mother's death from cancer at age 53 and with patients. Under those circumstances I believe it is a personal choice and not morally wrong. In fact if you flip the coin, one might say certain medical treatments that prolong the life of terminal patients is wrong, as nature would run its course.

The thing that I HATE to hear of are teens who kill themselves in their hormone driven, lack of life experience, emotional angst. That is just the saddest thing of all to me.

well, if you don't like it, feel free to toddle off and start one on fluffy bunnies and pussy cats

edit - why do the mods keep removing my smileys? grrrrrrrrrrr
if it weren't "just a website" it would get me dead mad

I've contemplated topping myself before, but it was not really to do with being depressed. More due to simple laziness. Life just seems far to much of a pain in the arse to be worth the bother. Work, commute,work, commute, work all bloody week, then a weekend of shopping and cleaning, then work again. If you have kids, then you have to work more to pay for the little bastards, and your freetime gets even less. Then regardless of the whacker taxes you pay, you have to pissball about sorting out your rubbish, and actually carrying it yourself to a recycling place. That bullshit alone could drive me to clipping myself.

Absolutely bloody pointless existing I reckon sometimes. Yeah, yeah, "what about those you leave behind?" What about 'em? Fuck them. Yeah, my mum would be upset, but what the fuck really, I only speak to her about 3 times a year anyway.

I think if my both children somehow died young, I would not be able to go on living. I don't think I would be able to cope with the pain and certainly couldn't see the point of trying to wade through years more of a joyless and souless existence.
Yes, rather a cheery thread...I think I'll go stick my head in the oven...

I was convinced I had MS when I was off work for so long a couple of years back. Symptoms fit, plus it's in the family. However it wasn't and I'm fine now, even without taking any pills. Hope that helps

true, but its a holiday from not existing isnt it? i had to research the golden gate bridge once, and i came across the strory one of the few guys to have survived the jump. he said as soon as he'd jumped off the bridge he realised every decision you make in live has possibilities and ways to reverse them for the better, apart from the one he just took.

Team Jebus nominates Don as TT's Samaritan's counsellor

My 17-year-old niece shot herself two years ago - no one could quite understand why but we all agree that she had never learned to let other people help her so she couldn't reach out. It hurt us all terribly and still aches now.
Then her mother found out that she had breast cancer and she didn't do diddly until it was too late, the breast got removed two months ago. She is going through chemo and rehab and doing all she can to stay alive. You would think she would have killed herself or let herself die but she saw the consequences to the survivors and turned into a fighter.
Still, everyone in my family accepts that in case of a terminal illness none of us want to be kept alive by machines and would much rather commit suicide as the last conscious act of our lives. This goes for me personally as well. It depends a lot on the circumstances.

You know, I think D.R's reverse psychology might well work better than electro-shock therapy on some depressed patients.

Sometimes I think that medical dictionaries and diagnosis websites should only be available to medical professionals. My father truly enjoys ill-health, revels in every ailment, I shudder to think what he could come up with should he be let loose with a browser.
Now, if I was smoking drugs right now, I could argue the point about do we choose to be born and if not, how can we choose to die.
But I'm not.
Suicide has never been personally an option in my life, even through the blackest of times, I'm just too Candide for it, too blatantly optimistic despite circumstances, always hope against hope.
Were I to become terminally ill? I don't know even then, you see, life is terminal per se.
Should anyone have suicidal thoughts, please contact a medical professional, at least explore other options first, snap decisions aren't always a good thing.
On a final note, one German word for suicide is rather poignantly poetic - "Freitod"

just for the record, i don't *really* think i've got MS

i've never felt this bad with the flu before, so i did a quick search on the symptoms and that just set my mind off thinking about what i'd do if i *did* have MS (having seen my aunt suffer with it for many years, i wouldn't want to go through that, personally)

but yeah - if you take these website diagnoses too seriously, then it can get a bit silly, i agree...

Why is that ER? Just curious as I haven't heard anyone take issue with that before.

Dunno about that. Doctors always fuckg tell you that the best thing to do is some exercise, like jogging, or the gym. Sorry, but I'll happily put an ice-pick through my skull before I contemplate going jogging. Natural endorphins? Fuck that shit, if endorphines are so great, then find a way to put them into beer. Jogging my arse.

Because in my opinion suicide is completely selfless. You commit suicide when you feel you have nothing left to offer, that the world would be a better place without you (whether or not this is actually a correct assumption is a matter of opinion but that is how the person thinks).

Oh and the would/could in the title has just reminded me of Dr Seuss' Green Eggs & Ham. That's another reason to live right there.

i know a doctor who specificly works slowly to avoid this. its usualy the relations who insist on keeping someone alive not the person themselves. she is sometimes asked by the patient to allow them to die with dignity and well she does so by being slower in certain proceedures. is it moraly and ethicly right i dont know, but when some 80 year old says i have a good one let me go it must be hard to do otherwise.

I nominate Don as the Homer Simpson of TT! Love his philosophy! You do anything bad Don and you will leave a wholew host of TTers behind who'd miss your comments!

I have been very down in the past, was addicted to chat lines and ran up a 2 grand phone bill when back in Wales. Now I have a family and a huge garden to look after I have no time to be down. I never ever considered any terminal options though. Something deep inside just keeps you going even when down.

Besides, on a clear night there are fabulous nebulae and galxies and beautiful double stars to explore!

Exactly. There's no point carrying on, because you're useless anyway, and you feel sorry for the people you inflict yourself on. So you stop "inflicting" yourself on people, and it's just a downward spiral from there. That's not really selfish. Fucked up, maybe, but not selfish.

Or when you feel the world has nothing left to offer you. Seriously, outside of the realms of fantasy, there ain't much left in the world that I fancy doing. Just seems like a whole bunch of boring shit that I have to do.

Your case is unique though, most suicides aren't caused by boredom. Although I have heard tales of the extravagent millionaire who has accomplished all his goals and tops himself at the height of his success.

<insert cheesy Kurt Cobain quote here>

I have contemplated it on 2 occasions, neither to do with illness but more to do with my own perceived value of my life, both to myself and others ( yes, the trigger was a breakup ).

I'm sure everyone here has been through that time when your mind is racing and covering old ground a million times every day and the night brings increased loneliness and desperation instead of rest and relaxation.

I realise now that my mind was chemically unbalanced and what i should have done was seek professional help to provide help to balance my system.

But when you are in the pit, looking for help from another human being is both very scary when you've already been rejected and requires an out of body objective view that you cannot achieve.

The things that slowly brought me back to a sense of reality were the love of my son and primarily the memories and nightmares induced by the suicidal death of my girlfriend some years previously who left three children with no parent and unimaginable pain and suffering for all who knew a beautiful 27 yr old who was going to have a fabulous career as a lawyer and was surrounded by love.

Suicide selfish ? No, i don't think so, it is a last desperate act of someone who sees no other path and realisation of zero worth in their minds.

OK, I see what you're getting at.
I think to the person considering suicide that would certainly be true, but that's also why I think the phrase is good because it is intended to help the individual understand that others do think the world is a better place with them in it.
Cicumstances would differ of course, but if someone grasped the idea that their suicide would cause even more pain it might be (the) one thing that helps prevent them making such a pointless and final decision. I'd guess it would work especially well for young people coming to terms with feelings of unimportance. Can't see anything wrong with that.

So you think the way to stop someone from killing themselves is to make them feel even worse by suggesting they're being selfish? Can't see how that would work, sorry. When people are in that state they are not able to believe they are loved etc. Irrational, but that's the way it is.

To lose someone to suicide is a most horrible experience. Its not just that the people one leaves behind are sad that the person is gone. Those close to the person spend the rest of their lives with a feeling of guilt that they could not/ had not done anything to prevent it.

Okay 'fess up time.

I'm currently signed off from work for two months because of 'moderately severe depression'. Hopefully I shall be well enough to go back to work next week but it has been a traumatic and life-reappraising episode.

This hit me like an express train in the back; seemingly out of nowhere and laying me flat like I couldn't do a thing. Yes, I attempted suicide. I was totally immersed in a delusional paranoid view of the world around me (am I still?). Resorting to capital screaming WHAT WAS THE POINT OF MY LIVING??? If you've never had this running through your thoughts with open scissors 24/7 then there are no words to convey the total exasperation of hopelessness. Logic shrugs and skedaddles before blood is spilled. Do I have a terminal disease? No. Am I in a loving and supportive relationship? Thank-you-God yes. Do I have debtors Nicholson-axing down the door? Not at all. Am I trying to barely exist in a Darfur nightmare? Nope I am thankfully thankfully thankfully not- Nothing remotely like, and this is where the Guardian-reading Liberal self tut-tuts and tells me to get some perspective. But when you are in that hell-hole of depression, when you can't make value judgements, when you scream WHAT IS THE POINT?!?!? then who is to answer?

I am getting better. I have anti-depressent drug support raising my natural feel-good serotonin levels. I don't continue to invisage plots about how to slip off this mortal coil with the least of pain and mess. But hey, if anyone out there are contemplating suicide and have been attracted to this thread because of it, please PM me because I have very recently been there and know how hopeless it seems to be.

But there is light. Oh Christ there IS LIGHT!

IF you did have MS what makes you think your prognosis would be the same as your aunties? It can't be cured but treatments are available to reduce severity and delay progression. It can and should change a great deal in your life but why jump of the egde of a cliff if the grim reaper can knock on your door before you even notice the next relapse? No two affected persons will experience the same progression. You wouldn't really throw away the next 25 years of your life for the fear of ending up like your auntie, would you now? 'Course not.

This is true and you've also brought up another point I take issue with. Generally when someone we are close to commits suicide we comfort ourselves with thinking the person was simply despressed or too far gone and there is nothing we could have done. In most cases I don't believe this is true. I think there is always something you can do to reach out and help someone. It takes opening your eyes and taking extra time out of your day but you CAN be an influential factor in saving someone from themselves if you're willing to commit to it. I've been there and done that (helping someone fight through it that is) and I would do it again in a heartbeat.

Just an idea, but for those of you calling coward or selfish or think about the consequences for others etc, read what people are saying that have been there eh ?

The whole point is that when you are that down or imbalanced is that you CAN'T make value judgements !

have never been 'there' myself, but think you're right. as someone who hasn't been down there I don't have the experience to judge how it'd be. a rational person can easily label it a 'selfish deed', this is rather normal I guess.

@ ER if someone really wants to kill themselves I think they will eventually find a way. for those who use suicide as a cry for help, I think they probably can be saved by the right person(s).

@ER, unfortunately it doesn't always help. Sometimes the person doesn't want to be helped.

I disagree, I think there is a turning point after which going back is difficult and for some impossible but the key is to catch the person before they hit that point. Which is obviously very difficult to do.

Or - as I said about my niece - never learned how to ask for help. No matter how much we were all willing, she couldn't ask. Three of her friends have been in therapy ever since, two have overcome their depressions, one is still struggling hard.

No, of course not. How would it make them feel worse? They have alredy decided there is nothing left, that's the whole problem. I suppose if you point and laugh and call them selfish they might feel worse, but the sentiment isn't delivered like that.
It is to attempt to help them understand that others and society do actually want them around, which I think at that point is usually the last chance to save them.
I remember so many teenagers who have flitted with thoughts of suicide during school, I'm sure we all do, and for some of those who made it through their depression; perhaps their peers calling the idea selfish might have formed a final taboo for them.
Teenagers especially are sensitive to what their peers say, even when they think they are at the end.
Attempted suicide as a cry for help? It's not a cry for money, fame or material goods. It is a cry for feeling valued, and if someone says 'you are being selfish, you are going to take something very important away from all of us if you kill yourself' it might just be enough to hold them with us a little longer so they can re-think things.
Anyway, I know personally of 2 occasions where this has worked and the person has gone for help before taking their own life, so I think if even only those 2 lives are around today because that perception surprised them into seeing how much others value them than it can't be such a terrible thing.

All I can say is, please don't ever tell a suicidal person they are being selfish. It's a really, really bad idea.

When I was in training in NYC, if someone was suicidal, then they could be admitted to an inpatient unit against their will for X number of days (I forget the number...maybe 72 hours).

I don't know what the laws in other parts of the U.S. or in other Countries are? But I'm curious.

You can be temporarily sectioned in the UK too gemini.

That's true. The young mother I knew at school attempted suicide and people trying to tell her of their love & friendship etc just had no effect. She just could not believe it was genuine. When friends and family berated her for what she tried to do, leaving us without her and her child motherless, she finally went for help. She needed the shock of the anger along with the love.
I think it is more of a last ditch effort though, and specific to each case. Not everyone would react the same way and those who are closest will try different methods to get through. It's not the answer to call all suicidal people selfish, but it is an approach that does work and shouldn't be discarded.


So they may need a shock to their thought processes to help them re-evaluate before it's too late.

No no no no. Their thought processes don't need that kind of shock. Really.

On a serious note:

Why are there more votes for "weebles" than for "wobble"? "...but they don't fall down" has even fewer still.

Surely these 3 options go hand-in-hand!

True, if you are considered a serious harm to yourself and others. However, many many mental health hospitals have now been closed down and the emphasis in the UK is on 'care in the coomunity'. The NHS Crisis, Assessment and Treatment Team allocated to me said that yes, in the past I would have been admitted as an in-patient to treat my depression, but now the emphasis is on treating a patient in their own home. Having worked in the NHS myself and been around old-style mental health hospitals I would agree this is a good thing.

I think all cases are as individual as the person they relate to but wouldn't neccessarily discount Marshbot's idea, however for me personally it would have just added to the feeling that all i was was a cause of pain and shit to loved ones and would have pushed me further away.

I think it is very important that when dealing with someone who is that depressed or down that people don't hark back to a tv show they saw once and try to replicate a drama scene, you are dealing with someone's life and experimentation with your theory may have tragic consequences.

Love and patience is the way to go backed up with professional advice.

Amen to that!
And if anyone had read my previous posts about my eating problems, then it was a post by someone on this board that moved me to seek professional help from my GP, who diagnosed anxiety as the root of my problems. Thank you for that, or I might have fallen even deeper in my depression without help.

Ok then. Just let them carry on their merry path, give them lots of positive words and hugs, even if there is no response.
I know one little girl who would have a much different life if her mothers friends and family were not caring enough to check on her constantly and open to trying all kinds of methods to get though.

But like I said Wheel, it's not a generic answer to suicides, there is no one answer. It's an option, and sometimes it works, especially when it's given alongside the more natural love and support. That's enough reason not to dismiss it for me.

nice one Serry. Hope things are ok