Rugby: England vs. New Zealand

although i'd rather not watch us get pasted by a bunch of pacific island imports, sorry all blacks, who's down there? i shall have oscar with me, he needs some passive smoke to calm him down a bit.

sunday at 16:00 btw as someone just asked me

we'll be down Outland

I knew there was something I wanted to do this weekend! Thanks for the heads-up Gids.

I'll be there to watch the Engrish get a hiding by our Kiwi lads

no problems... nothing nicer than seeing familiar faces on a cold afternoon while a bunch of lads slog it out on the rugby pitch...

*sigh* if we win i'll buy you a beer mate. if we lose its your round eh? go pacific islands! might turn up in my new samoan top...

Gids I'm only sorry that I won't be able to provide any active smoke for Oscar. Hope he doesn't mind.

he'll just nick your chips then ;-)

He does that anyway. And so does Ben. Must be their upbringing.

@ Wibble
exactly - massive Argie forwards >>> French team which is rubbish on the back foot

I´m rooking forward to seeing New Zearand pray!

During rugby internationals in November, we'll be doing our beer and burger deal.

An Arc burger and a Helles for only €8...

Oh dear, what shall I do
And the Champions' Trophy final in the afternoon...

Hmm I will there . So who should I cheer for? Who are the bad guys?

Doesn't look like I'm going to catch any of the cricket!

Skins v Cowboys looking attractive now

Good one, All Blacks!
England - 20
New Zealand - 41

Thrash those lime-juicers! Ha ha ha!!

So. 7 in a row now for England. And people STILL think Robinson is a good coach?

@ Crawlie
I didnt see the game but I think that's unfairly harsh - England have been hampered in the past by playing purely forward rugby , something that they've been trying to move away from - this will leave them vulnerable to massive forward based teams such as South Africa and Argentina. Think guys like Brian Ashton and Mike Ford are the best in the game - Andy Robinson doesnt deserve the stick.

I am sure the vast majority of people at the game would probably agree with me. Worst losing record in history? Not good at all

If u mean the sort of fans who boo their own players then perhaps you're right.

Did they boo? Sorry, did not know that. Disgraceful behaviour

Although I wouldn't do it myself, I can understand the sentiment of the fans. English rugby players are amongst the best played in the sport yet they have consistently underperformed since the World Cup. There seems to be a lack of vision amongst the coaching team with one clear direction in which they want to take the side. There also seems to a lack of consistency amongst the players, many of whom simply don't "turn up" to the matches. Prices for Twickers are extortionate. You pay a lot of money for these matches and you expect that for that price the players and the coaching side will give 100% When they don't it is extremely annoying. It is far worse, in fact, that the losing.

English rugby really needs to have a hard think about things. I believe it is too late for anything to change for this world cup. However, English rugby has so much potential and so many fine players at club level that a few structural and coaching changes will reap enormous results.

I think, however, that the current situation shows that no one single nation is strong enough alone. Irish and Welsh rugby has improved dramatically from the re-structuring into provinces/regions and regular cross-border competition. Perhaps it is time to consider ditching the current domestic and European competitions in favour of a truly European league and cup competition.

Why is it a disgrace? If you play badly you deserve to get booed off the field. These are supposed to be full time professionals. Robinson should shoulder alot of the blame but then also the players also share some responsibilty for not just losing to Argentina at home but losing 7 games in a row! People normally pay good money to see top sporting action and dont expect total shit performances nor not be entertained. People have a right to voice there opinions at a game whether it be booing, shouting , chanting or cheering. If people for example want to boo a kicker going for a goal/convertion or boo a team because they feel that the team has playecd shite they have the right to boo and just because somebody doesnt like it this is not disgraceful behaviour as you put it

Why is it a disgrace ? Because I am an Irishman first and last , even if my brothers have not played as well as others expect them too I will not let them down in my role as a "supporter". I remember clearly times when all Ireland had was a whim and a prayer and a goosestep in Simon Geoghan's boots - and the tears of emotion raining down as the players sang the national anthem - and we STILL went out and for 20 minutes hammered the greatest New Zealand side of all time in South Africa - of course we succumbed to the inevitable - we were amateurs - but we gave our whole hearts and souls - and even if/when we didnt we would not sully our own before other's eyes.

For supporters to drop their heads and boo their team when they are playing badly , perhaps against superior opposition (and the Argentines are no shit-bags in World rugby - I rate their forward pack and back line SEPERATELY as amongst the top 3 in the world ) then I feel they have no right to that title of supporter. For me rugby was/is war - without the killing and nonsense - and just as much as I respect the opposing side - I love my own.

These players are getting payed good money and if they cant catch balls or make tackles or show very little effort like England seem to be doing then deserve to get booed off the field. If my team plays shit then deserve criticism same if I do my work poorly my boss will give me a bollocking and my workmates wont be too happy neither and would usually say something!

Parnell, i agree with you totally on your point about supporting your team through lows as well as highs (and Wales have had plenty of lows in the past 20 odd years, so i should know as well). Which is why i would personally not boo any team like that.

However, Dally M has a point. These guys are professionals and are amongst the highest wage earners in the sport. I think they share some of the blame. And i can understand why the English fans did it. It is frustrating, especially when you can see the massive potential which is not being exploited. England should seriously be whipping everyone's arses.

Can it be that the English rugby players are playing too many games?

IMO, that is the problem with their highly paid football and cricket teams who should also (in theory) be among the best in the world.

There has to be lots of games and competitions to satisfy the sponsors who are pumping the big money into the sport.

As a result, the top players are often not close to 100% fit and cannot perform to the best of their abilities. And they find it hard to get switched on for so many games -- sometimes they just can't be bothered.

There is too many games but then a number of the Argies play in England and play the same number of games as the English. If you cant be bothered playing for your country or giving 100%-even if you lose by a big score atleast give everything you have. A coach/trainer doesnt miss tackles, miss Goals/Convertions, drop the ball and give stupid penalties away. Why isnnt the Captain getting hold of his team and leading them? A captain should be setting the lead on the field for his teammates to follow. Putting in 100% effort and being an inspiration to his team. You cant say that about England

There is no real excuse to losing 7 games in a row and losing to a lesser team like Argentina at home. I can understand losing to NZ, France, Ireland , S.Africa etc as they have a number of players at Professional level but I cant imagine that Argentina have anywhere near the number of Professional Full time players in comparison to England nor have they the money and backing that England have

I honestly havent watched England but have spoken to a number of people that have and the comments range from poor tactics to poor discipline, too much dropping of balls giving the opponents the ball and the feeling that a number of players arent giving their all.

The Nations and Clubs do need to think of the players but they wont as money comes first for both. Also for example the Tri Nations is getting boring and crowds are starting to drift watching the same sides play two or three times a year

The reason why England are losing , IMHO has probably more to do with spirit than with anything else. I am reliably informed that Andrew Sheridan squats with 625 lbs for reps , that is enough to snap a normal man's spine like a twig. Last year in the Ireland vs England game of the 6N who was , by a huge margin the best English player ? - Andy fucking Goode. When a fat little Freddie Starr lookalike is your best player in the modern professional era then clearly your problems are not related to sheer muscle or genetic ability. In my honest opinion I think many of the first England XV have no heart - and heart is something that supporters can help a team to find. Scotland in particular is a team which seems to exist on heart alone.

no, they probably don't have anywhere near as many professionals as England but most of their international squad play in the top two European leagues, the French Top 14 and the Guinness Premiership. Every single one of their starting line up except Cora (Argentinian league) and Contepomi (Leinster) play in those leagues.

Argentina:
J-M Hernandez (Stade Francais);
J Nunez Piossek (Bayonne),
M Avramovic (Worcester),
G Tiesi (London Irish),
P Gomez Cora (Lomas Athletic);
F Contepomi (Leinster),
A Pichot (Stade Francais, capt);
M Ayerza (Leicester),
M Ledesma (Clermont Auvergne),
O Hasan (Toulouse),
I Fernandez-Lobbe (Sale Sharks),
P Albacete (Pau),
J Fernandez-Lobbe (Sale Sharks),
J Leguizamon (London Irish),
G Longo (Clermont Auvergne).

Replacements: A Vernet (Alumni), M Scelzo (Clermont Auvergne), E Lozada (CASI), M Schusterman (Leeds), N Fernandez-Miranda (Hindu), F Todeschini (Montpellier), H Agulla (Hindu)

The Argentinian first team is by no means an inferior side. I think the only reason they are not higher in the world rankings is because they don't have a regular international competition like the 6 Nations or Tri-Nations.

Agree completely with Owain - Contepomi in particular is an absolutely smashing player - Leinster progressing as far as the semi finals in the Heineken Cup this year (only losing to Munster , the eventual winners) shredding Toulouse on their home turf along the way. Argentina's front five in particular along with Contepomi are awesome , I'm honestly dreading Ireland vs Argentina in the World Cup.

That will be a tough one, for sure. With France, Namibia and probably Georgia in the same group, the games against Argentina will be a must win for both Ireland and France.

@ Owain
Especially as the runner up from the group will likely face NZ in the quarters. But we face France on home turf in the 6N this year . Beating them there , especially heavily and I think we're in with a good shout (nightmare is that 6 days after that we have England albeit at home).

The more I think about England the more I think how they are missing Wilkinson - I think he was perhaps the greatest rugby player I have seen , far superior to Lomu - able to pin back sides , score points from anywhere in the opponents half and having the highest tackle rate of any player on the pitch. With him in the side , England had simply to hold on in the forwards and he'd keep the scores rolling in , eventually forcing opposition into desperation and allowing the backlines to open.

The problems England have at the moment do stem from Robinson in my opinion. He has almost never selected a consistent back row 3 and when he does he often plays all 3 of them out of position. Our back row 3 never competes thus leaving the scrum half and fly half under pressure.

Based on the fact that most of our scrum halves (probably with the exception of Perry) seem to need to take at least 1 step before offloading it leaves the fly half under a lot of pressure. Unfortunately Charlie is great playing off the front foot but usually struggles playing off the back foot.

Admittedly injuries haven't helped England much recently but that's life. Another bizarre decision by Robinson was to play the same side (except Freshwater) that played against NZ. The agreement is that no players are allowed to play in more than 3 of the 4 AI's so why not change a few players where it didn't work against the All Blacks. Now we will play 1 test against SA with a completely different team telling us pretty much nothing.

I also don't think AR inspires any confidence in the players at all. Why he won't do the decent thing and resign I don't know.

@ Wibble
Think that's extremely harsh ,Lewis Moody in particular I have never seen "not competing" - the man is a legend in my book.

And I completely understood the decision by the 3-man (not just Robinson) selection panel to play the same side - they needed to get at least one win in the bag. That hasnt happened - sometimes them's the breaks.

sometimes all it takes is that one win for the whole thing to turn around and again for that first, second and then third loss for it to spiral down again.
England will, as sure as eggs are eggs, improve from this situation, just as sure as eggs are eggs, Wales will drop off form again after a few good wins.

I agree that the England coaching team as a whole haven't exactly inspired the team to success but it was always going to be a hard run for Robinson taking on a team post world cup success with so many retirements.

Parnell, I'm not talking about competing in terms of effort I'm talking about competing as in being the equal of the opposition as a unit and in my opinion the England back row 3 has been one of the main sources of our problems for quite some time now.

I don't understand the logic of playing them out of position half the time. Consistency of selection doesn't help when you are playing No 8 for a couple of matches and flanker the next and often changing between the 2 mid match.

@ Wibble
ok then , I can agree that the back 3 has not been what it should be , but again 3-man selection panel holds responsibility , pretty sure Rob Andrew is there as well , means that AR should not be copping all of the blame.

Do not agree at all with Owain that AR was "always going to have a hard time" , success breeds success - now Ireland are doing well , droves of youngsters are converting from Gaelic games - wait and see what this brings.

France pummeled by New Zealand 47 - 3

That's it, I've decided to get hold of a ticket for the 2007 World Cup final to be played in France next year. I'm looking forward to an All Black championship win.
November 18 is the second game between France and New Zealand. I'm not sure where to see it (The Outland?), although I may catch it on TV5 Monde - with French commentary!

Yup, the France result almost adds a bit of respectability to England's score against NZ. No-one really knows how bad or good the Argies are just now. Looking forward to Scotland humping the Aussies in a few weeks time though

Don't know how to do the hyperlink thingy, but BBC Sport website has got Rob Andrew saying that Andy Robinson will remain in charge for both SA games.

Sound like a stay of execution, but can't think of anyone better to take over immediately apart from Ashton.

Unless we win both, can't see him being around for 6 Nations.

Nice to see England are moving consistently downwards in the world rankings.

1 New Zealand 94.06pts
2 France 86.39pts
3 Australia 85.50pts
4 South Africa 85.24pts
5 Ireland 83.81pts
6 Argentina 79.01pts
7 England 78.14pts
8 Scotland 77.72pts
9 Wales 77.02pts

Although congratulations to Argentina who are just getting better and better. Maybe they should kick England out of the 6 nations for being utterly shite and replace them with Argentina seeing as most of their players are European based and it would be less painful to watch.

are we to take that comment seriously or was it just tongue in cheek humor?

I wouldn'd mind adding Argentina to a 7 Nations tournament, though that wouldn't be workable because of the number of extra matches that would need to be played.

Somewhat tongue in cheek. However at the moment England would probably be more at the level of Romania, Georgia, Canada, Japan and the USA.

The other problem with Argentina is they can't really be added to the tri nations, as nearly all their players are European based and the tri nations would conflict with the club duties and there are already enough problems on that front.

Only solution I can see is a 5 nations A and a 5 nations B with maybe the A made up from the first 5 from this years 6 nations and Italy, Argentina, Romania, Georgia and Russia in the B level. They could do a 1 up 1 down system which would certainly make the wooden spoon that much more painful.

I like the heading on The Guardian's sports page today:
"No U-turns as coaches insist England are going in the right direction"

there already is a second tier European Nations Cup competition run by the FIRA-AER. Division 1 (one below 6 Nations) has the Czech Republic, Georgia, Portugal, Romania, Russia and Spain. There is promotion and relegation between Divions 1, 2 and 3 but no possibility to join the 6 Nations since that is by invitation only.

True but I'd actually make it a second tier 5 nations. I can't see any other way of getting Argentina in and giving them the competition they need and rightly deserve.

Argentina deserve to be in the 6 Nations more than Italy and Scotland to be honest, and also more than Wales in most years.

only when borat comes have we reached that level. england are going through a rough patch. same as wales and scotland and england themselves have gone through before. it'll change. and robinson is out after the autum internationals (please!) the rise of argentina though is to be applauded it makes for better and more exciting rugby.

Well according to the world rankings that direction is down. Nice to see they have no plans to try and change that trend.