Berlin to lead the way for smoking ban in Germany

Man, I totally agree. You know what pisses me off too? When I go to the pub, I drink a lot of beer, and I have to piss all the time. I find it completely inconvenient to stand up and walk to the toilet. It's ok if I only go to the pub for an hour, but if I'm there the whole night, I have to go like 10 times. Like you say, it's impossible to have a conversation, so last time I was at the pub, I just decided to piss on the floor. It sprayed a bit over some people, but man, you've gotta have a little tolerance I say. Anyway, much more convenient than going to the loo. Then the landlord got pissed off. I can't believe it, what about my rights!?! This nanny state has gone too far!

I wish they had that in Germany. In the few places where smoking is actually banned already, people ignore it and it's not enforced. And even if you ask them to move to the smoking area they refuse half the time.

But please, feel free to justify inconsiderate behavior by throwing around words like Stasi. (At least you didn't use the N word.)

I think I love you

Perhaps when they have the ban in place, people wont be confused that "they have rights"...no, you dont. if a law is in effect, you dont have the right to smoke. let's face it, even though I like to smoke once in a while, so do others, if this product were presented today, it would never hit the market due to its highly dangerous health hazards. When will people understand what "rights" are vs. "priveleges"...get over it.

it is so uncool to smoke, intellectuals consider smokers trashy, it stinks, its lower class, its expensive, oh yeh, its proven fatal. why do we do it? its only for the selfish reason of getting off.

...and if there is a smoking prohibition in an area and people are smoking...you ask them to quit or move and they refuse? ive taken cigerettes and thrown them out...and/or last summer, we had a water pistol from swimming and doused them that way...LMAO...people get the idea and they have no right to say anything: 1.) they are in the wrong, 2.) they are germans and usually wont say anything.

I like your arguments...especially the 'rights' vs. 'priveleges' one.

and i do qualify as a smoker. i know my place and its outdoors and not interferring with anyone else's fresh air. common courtesy goes a long way.

Yes, I do have the right to smoke, it is not a privilege, and I have the right to kill myself and I have the right not to want to be super healthy. I do not think smoking is cool and do not smoke for that reason. I would say 90% of "intellectuals" I know chain-smoke so I dunno where you get that idea from but anyway thats besides the point, the 40% of 18 to 34 yr. olds that smoke in Ireland are not all lower class, idiots, trashy. I enjoy smoking and dont think thats selfish. I do find it selfish to not be allowed smoke in a smoking section and I 100% agree that smokers should not be smoking in places where its banned and would not tolerate it either. So use your water pistols whenever you want.

smoking is a priveledge, not a right. Im sure you can subpena the UN human rights watch group if you are told not to smoke.

suicide (aka: killing yourself) is not your right either. IN most sophsiticated countries, this is against the law.

of course you dont have to be "super healthy", whatever that means??? nor do you have to be cool.

irregardless of your experiences, smoking has been stigmatized within professional, intellectual circles: yes, it might seem superficial, but it has its positive repercussions. It is time to quit for us all. The ban will go into effect and you will comply.

What about workers that have to work in these smoking areas? What about their "rights"?

Har har!
Your comic skills aside, if you have to go the loo 10 times in one evening then I feel very sorry for your liver, kidneys, stomach and family and friends when they have to visit you in hospital after your first bout of pancreatitus. You are aware that men can drink a maximum of 4 units of alcohol per day, women 3, 1 pint is already 2 units so 2 pints is the maximum in one day that is considered safe for a man. I am constantly amazed how alcohol is so tolerated in our society. Drinking causes so many problems and more people die from it than from hard drugs, Its perfectly ok, even amusing, that people drink illegally on the streets, who cares if they then piss on every corner, turn residential areas and city streets into rubbish heaps full of broken glass, drink way in excess of recommended amounts, block traffic, frighten old people and prevent them from going out or even to the shops, have blackouts, puke all over the place, and act the idiot or even worse hurt and insult people. As long as they are not violent its ok... they are only harming themselves and sure most of its only a bit of fun. But no way can smokers have a smoking section that not one non-smoker ever has to enter...
Proper ventilation systems not only remove the smoke from the air they are able to reduce the levels of carbon monoxide to below those in a non-smoking pub. They are incredibly expensive but why not the choice?
I have said over and over again that no smokers should be smoking in non-smoking places, no non-smoker should have to suffer any inconsiderate behaviour by smokers and it is common sense that smoking sections have to be located in places that non-smokers do not have to walk through etc. I do not condone the fact that Germany is not enforcing laws that are already in place or that people smoke on trains etc - I have never seen this but dont think its right, thats a different problem and one that could be solved without an undemocratic ban. If one insists on the ban, then the only unhypocritical thing to do is to make smoking a criminal offence and to introduce huge taxes on petrol, diesel, fatty foods, mobile phones and industry, to name a few of the worst offenders and pollutants that are still legal.
The comment that smoking would not be patented today amuses me, every day products are allowed on the market that later prove fatal or seriously damaging to health - and not over decades but within the space of a few weeks, months, years if you are lucky. Nicotine has lots of beneficial attributes too, maybe today they would be clever enough to produce a better product.

PS Suicide is not illegal in most "sophisticated" societies - actually its the other way round, most countries that have separated state and church no longer judge suicide to be a criminal offence - only aiding or advising someone to commit suicide:
"Under English criminal law, the Suicide Act 1961 decriminalised the act of suicide so that those who failed in the attempt would no longer be prosecuted." (wikipedia)
"Suicide or attempted suicide is no longer an offence in Australia. However. assisting or encouraging another person to commit suicide is..." (Australian government report)

The reference to the stasi is a direct quote from people living in Ireland suffering under the new regime and new atmosphere - I think they have the right to express what they feel. I do not compare nazis with the stasi or with anyone else but do compare encouraging people to spy on their fellow citizens with stasi methodology

interesting items about Germany's first anti-smoking campaign
during the 30s, under the Nazis

http://www.forces.org/articles/art-fcan/nazi2.htm
just google Nazi smoking for more

As you seem to have realised, I was making a sarcastic joke, which was meant to reinforce the point that people do not have unrestricted freedoms and "rights".


These things you mention are mostly not ok. You will get locked up or a fine for pissing on the street, littering, blocking traffic, being a nuisance and insulting people here in Germany regardless of whether you are drunk or not. Just as you should.


Staff have to enter this room, which is the reason it will be banned. In any case, I believe in Germany a small smoking room will be allowed.


As I've said over and over again, this law is not about protecting patrons, it's about protecting staff.


Fatty foods causes no one problems except the person that eats too much of them. Nor does your previous example of Alcohol. Mobile phones can be a nuisance, but they won't kill innocent bystanders. Pollutants like petrol are being taxed to try to reduce the amount they are being used, but cars/trucks form the basis of our society and without them we couldn't function. Smoking has no such public purpose, so I see nothing wrong with it being banned in public. Note that I am totally against banning cigarettes in general, what you want to do on your own is up to you.

Like I said to you in the other thread (it would be better if we could keep this argument to one thread though really) - The law is being brought in to protect workers. You can stop with your selfish theories and suggestions now - there is only one solution to this problem - ban smoking in the workplace. Every worker should have the right to work in a safe work environment, and one filled with smoke is not that. As I said, it's just a bonus for the non-smoking majority that they'll be able to go to the restaurant/pub in peace now.

And there we go, Godwin's Law works in Germany as well.

Not at all applicable. I am not comparing the current anti-smoking campaigners to Nazis, we are not on the slippery slope to incinerating smokers.
I myself am a smoker, but am all in favour of forbidding smoking in public places. It is my private enjoyment and I do not need to share it with non-smokers.

My point is that Germany started an anti-smoking campaign much earlier than other countries,
and in certain ways this has complicated the current efforts for regulating smoking.

Hitler was a vegetarian, into anthroposophy, a dog-lover and strongly anti-smoking. Does his other activities invalidate these "qualities"?
Maybe not, but I am suspicious of groups that try to impose their beliefs on the whole population.

This evangelical desire to change the world underlies many political causes, people get caught up in all sorts of mass movements just to feel that they are on the "right side". From the thirty-years war to WWII, Germany has suffered a number of regrettabe conflicts. Given their cultural obsession with rules, the prevelence of smoking in Germany is a small "live and let live" area of freedom. Too bad that this too will pass.

You seem to forget that increasing numbers of people see this prevalence of smoking in Germany in terms of "smoke and let stink, wheeze and die".

I just have to wonder how some dried plant leaves and some paper can have so much power over such a huge percentage of a population. A little self strength never hurt anyone. Just Quit!!! Done.

i managed to quit for 8 weeks but its bloody hard and you will be tempted for the rest of your life because all you have to do is pop into the nearest shop. for alot of people its just not that easy to quit

Never underestimate the magic herb. Free the weed!

It does make it easier to quit when it's banned in public and you don't have to see/smell people smoke every time you go out for a bite to eat or a coffee!

it was my chain smoking friend that helped me start again not going out, it needs to be banned completely.

Nope. Has no effect whatsoever on my desirte for a cigarette.
There's long been plenty of non-smoking cafes or cafe sections.

URGH why is it so hard for people to understand -smoking (in a closed environment especially) is dangerous and totally inconsiderate (esp to the people that need to make a living there ie bar /kitchen staff, musicians). I love the reference that someone else made about farting in their faces - thats how i think of cigarette smoke...see how they would like it, or the other suggestion about spraying a really offensive odour into their clothes, hair and faces so they would understand the eye watering misery that is created by puffy smokers who continue to disregard other people's health whilst thinking they look really cool and hip (oohhhh but im addicted -whatever just dont kill everyone else at the same time). And you can bring up as many arguments as u think are relevant about rights of the person to smoke but i hope u know underneath that you are being completely obnoxious (and stinky). Give up your habit and free the rest of us - you might even enjoy it. If you want to smoke do it in your own home, or even better shit in the corner and see if that works for you, its just as digusting and filthy. LONG LIVE WHATEVER FRESH AIR IS LEFT IN THIS WORLD.

Wow berlingal. Are you sure you are German?
Strong sentiment coming from a national. Practically every German I have met, am related to or work with, smokes (well except my mother-in-law and my wife's Grandmother and my neighbor)
My wife quit cold turkey when I told her how much I hate smoking (it shows you that, with the proper motivation, anyone can quit)
Back in Canada I knew one smoker in my whole circle of friends (and he was actually German) and except for the odd stranger passing by I hardly ever came across a smoker.
To hear a German national talk like you is..well...pretty incredible. I wish more Germans thought like you do.

Is smoking even banned in Berlin right now? Cause if it isn't, they are certainly not leading the way, seeing as Niedersachen and Baden Wurttemberg have the ban in place. Maybe it's time for a title change.

Did you say plenty? In Munich? Please...

The ban in Berlin begins on January 1, 2008.


Well, dunno about Munich but in Berlin - if you count places like McDonalds, Nordsee etc., there are plenty. However, of the places any normal person would like to spend time in: the choice is still pathetic, and the "No smoking" sections are usually a joke (like three tables in the corner by the toilets, and no-one ever tells the smoke that it should keep out of the no-smoking section).

The subtle change in the UK since the ban a month or so ago is interesting. Most pubs and all restaurants are now pleasant places to be. The lack of smoke in some pubs is exposing the general lack of hygene in the place - they stink of other things including hidden pub grub etc. The only problem is the number of people smoking as they walk along the street. You tend to get a mouthful if you walk behind someone having a good suck on a fag.

Personally I support the introduction of smoking cabins on street corners (like they have in airports), use of which to be enforced by armed mobile SWAT teams ;-)

I rub shoulders with a lot of Greenpeace campaigners (being one myself) and am amazed by how many smoke. It seems obligatory almost.

I wonder why they don't campaign for organic, non-GM, cigarettes instead of puffing on genetically modified tobacco, sprayed with pesticides, riddled with added chemicals (particularly nitrates), grown by exploited workers in developing countries, and marketed by giant multi-national corporations who have actively denied a link between tobacco and death.

They'll pontificate how important it is to have an organic vegetable box delivery each week from local suppliers, but not insist on including with it a carton of Fairtrade ciggies kite-marked by the Soil Association and the Vegetarian Society.

(I am a hypocrite as well, mind; I smoke too )

This is the hypocrisy of cigarette smoking. A lot of Germans will only eat organic fruit and vegetables, holiday in the Alps for the fresh air and extol the virtues of the Reinheitsgebot (beer purity law), but then smoke a cigarette riddled with 200+ chemicals. Who decided that pesticides on a tomato or sugar syrup in a beer was bad but hydrogen cyanide in cigarette smoke was OK?

Yes, or the same person that won't let me leave the window open because the draft will make them sick, smokes a pack a day...hmmm

They can't understand it because addictions make people totally selfish.
Yes, I am calling you all selfish. The ban WILL happen so have fun. If it inconveniences you THAT much you can quit. Problem solved.

A lot of young Germans do. I have a lot of German friends (all under 30) and none of them smoke. Not a single one, and most of them are even disgusted by smoking.

I'd like to meet some of your friends, at my last job I was the ONLY non-smoker in a shop with 18 people. Someone offers me a cigarette and I say that I don't smoke and they look at me like I'm some sort of freak of nature.
I know things are changing, and I am very very very thankful and full of anticipation!

I didn't actually consciously make so many non smoking friends but it must have been somewhat subconscious. It's really pleasant to go out with them, because even though tons of people are smoking at least no one is smoking at my table! And they never whine that my apartment is 'non smoking' only.

Is there any actual news on this? I find it quite funny that the original post, from Nov. 2006, says that Berlin will set a precedent for the other federal states. Meanwhile, nothing in Berlin yet while others have raced (OK, crawled) forward.

I haven't heard anything about this for what seems like a very long time now. Does anyone know if this is going to happen? I personally don't think it matters, as it will never be enforced in Berlin, but that's another issue.

However I have heard that the will not start fining people until Aug 2008. (not sure how true that is).

How the will implement this law in practice I have no idea.

It all started pretty quietly here in Hessen ...no big song and dance..31/9 there were ashtrays in pubs and cafes, 1/10 - all removed... a few more non-smoking signs in the U Bahn...

Haven't come across any real policing of it

Well the total lack of any sort of public information campaign two months before implementation should give us a clue.

There are a lot of things that are technically forbidden in Berlin: dogs of their line, dogs crapping on the sidewalk, grafitti, underage drinking, underage smoking, smoking in train stations, etc. I see no reason why this will be any different.

I'm guessing places near the main tourist sites will follow it, but nobody else will.

Thanks for the info, anyway.

I think there's an unofficial guideline which gives a six month grace period before they really start enforcing, or trying to enforce anything.

The situation is improving little by little, I keep hearing about restaurants etc. who have renovated or something and have already gone smoke-free. There's a website called Berlin für Nichtraucher which lists smoke-free places (probably not all of them though).

I was in the UK recently and it was wonderful. I can put up with gaggles of people smoking on the street if I'm sure I'm not going to meet them anyswhere else.

Erdbeer is non smoking and it's not particularily touristy.

Despite what smokers think, there are LOTS of Berliners (more than half the population, actually...we're the majority) that don't smoke and a lot of those people who don't like being surrounded by smoke.

"Der Kalte Truthan!!! Has got me... on the run" (Sorry, John Lennon! )

Mixed emotions...

As an "Atem-Therapeut", I want you to stop smoking, okay?

But as a "Realist" , I am glad that you do...!

Where is Molly now that I need her???

Der "Q"

the smoking ban came in at home (queensland australia) last june. i'm a smoker but since i was working in a bar at the time i LOVED the ban. it actually worked in the favour of the bar as the venue wasn't very easy to see from the street, but all the smokers hanging outside brought more people in.

in other bars and clubs though everyone ends up smoking in the toilets past 3am since we have "lockdown". if you're not in the club before 3 you can't get in. so the toilets are filled with smoke instead of the club.

Smoking is cool