Berlin to lead the way for smoking ban in Germany

Berlin's local Government plan a total ban on smoking in all public building, including bars and restauruants.

Can take effect as early as 2007.

This will set a precedence for all other federal states.

see link: Berlin Smoking Ban Hoped to Set Example for Rest of Germany

Right, I'm off. Can anyone recommend a nice neighbourhood in Berlin?

I must admit to being a smoker, however i am for the ban. My partner does not smoke, and as it works (very very well) in Ireland it is not too much of an inconvenience to pop outside (yes even in winter) for a ciggie.

It will even be an incentive to give me the push and stop.

I thought Germany wasn't going to do No general ban on smoking in restaurants planned... I guess they changed their minds. Ich bin gespannt.

It is only proposed for Berlin. not for all Germany yet! however it is a start and will lead the way for all federal states to adopt.

@Bern: The Government decided at a national level not to introduce a ban on smoking in public places. But there's nothing to stop individual states or even towns/cities introducing their own ban. In the UK, several local authorities got fed up with Blair's hopeless search for a "Third Way" and announced their intent to introduce their own ban. These included Brighton, Westminster and Manchester councils. Scotland got fed up waiting for a ban and introduced their own, while Wales announced their intention to adapt any wishy-washy New Labour compromise into an outright ban.

I expect that Berlin's move will inspire other cities and Länder to introduce their own bans. Once enough Länder have announced their intention to introduce bans, then central government will effectively be forced to follow suit. The political will for a ban exists throughout Europe.

Good news, unless it inspires a backlash that prevents more limited bans long-term. In the meantime, I wish the deutsche Bahn would start enforcing the non-smoking sections they already have on some platforms...

I'm excited about this beyond belief.

That is definitely good news! Now I can enjoy my drinks without having to cough at some point and dealing with watery eyes. Let's hope this will actually happen!!

nice one berlin!!! wish munich were as open minded as them

Here is the latest on the smoking ban. My German's not perfect but I didn't pick up anything that gave restrictions on cities so my impression is that this is going to be country-wide...

Yes, this was the cop-out that was announced a few weeks ago. Basically they're banning smoking in places it was already mostly banned in, like hospitals, and in places already large enough for smoke not to be such a problem, such as restaurants over 75 m2. The places that actually need the ban and would actually make a difference to the ludicrously high smoking rate in this country are exempted from the ban.

Great news! I hate stinking like an ashtray after a night out.

I do a lot of work with people wanting to quit smoking... looks like next year could be a busy year.

About time too. I was shocked and stunned to see how much smoking in confined public spaces goes on in Berlin. Not only is it bad manners IT IS BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH! This has been known for ages. It's about time the legislation caught up.

It is NOT bad manners here. It may be inconsiderate as hell but manners are dictated by the culture. It's bad manners to slurp you soup here or make noise when you eat; in eastern Asia it's how you show your appreciation for the food you've been served. Arms on the table is normal here; not so in the US and UK. In Muslim countries as well as those places where one eats with his hands from a communal bowl, eating with your left hand is akin to shitting in the food.

Welcome to Germany. They have different manners here and they're not about to change them for your convenience.

The reason smoking bans were discouraged by the government for so long is A) bribes and payoffs; and B) the government's reliance on the huge amount of money the tobacco taxes bring in.

woof.

I'm not going to complain about manners, because I do agree with you that it is dictated by the culture and UNFORTUNATELY smoking is (far too much) accepted here.
I would love to see a smoking ban though. Eventually someone will realize that payoffs and taxes are rivaled by health care costs. I hope Germany (or at least Berlin) decides to join the rest of the modern world on this one.
I am highly anti-smoking for a reason. I am allergic to smoke. I LOVE to go out, but I hate it when I have to stay away from even restaurants because my eyes swell up and I can't breath. I can deal with it in the summer when doors are open and it's not so stuffy, but in the winter it is unbearable at times, especially if I have a cold. I also don't believe my health or that of anyone else who chooses not to smoke should be dictated by those who make poor health choices. If they want to damage their lungs in the privacy of their own homes, or outside, fine, but it's not fair to subject everyone else to it.

oh i hope this goes through! i hate it when my clothes stink of tobbacco smoke after a night of clubbing

I hate it when my lungs hurt in the winter...

so when in 2007 will it come into effect?

EU comes to the rescue! Well, maybe. At least there is some hope on the horizon.

@ JTW


You having a laugh mate?? You don't like a bit of smoke on the platform, move along.

Why should you have to? If its non smoking people shouldn't be smoking there.

Exactly Hutcho,

Every "non smoking" S-Bahn station has at least 2 smoking areas. Hence smokers should smoke there. What gets me is smoking in the U-bahn where it is 100% not allowed. supposedly a 15 Euro fine but I have never senn any getting issued.

Munich Hbf is "smoke-free", apart from the smoking section at the beginning of each and every platform. So everybody travelling by train has to walk through the cloud of smoke in this otherwise "smoke-free" station.

No, wrong. If you want to smoke, move into the smoking area. It's not my responsibility to find a part of a non-smoking section free of people disregarding the rules and smoking. (Assuming that one exists; what does one do when people ignore the smoking ban all along the platform?)

Also, where do people get off thinking it's okay to smoke while walking through a non-smoking area to get to a smoking area? No smoking means no smoking, in case you're too inconsiderate and self-centered to realize it.

Food for thought: http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/rulesdontapplytome.html

Bingo. I hate how some people think it's their right to smoke anywhere and everywhere. What about our right to breathe fresh air?

For the record, I come from a city with one of the longest standing smoking bans in the world (I think since 1999 or 2000...) The long term effect is that people whine for about a year, and then SURPRISE they just get used to smoking outside. It's even lowered the smoking rate because it's easier for people to quit...they're not bombarded with cigarette smoke every time they go out to eat. People still occassionally whine, but everyone else gets to breathe.

The thing about smoking is that when you smoke, it effects other people's health. Second hand smoke is bad for you. I don't care if you choose to ruin your health, but please don't ruin mine.

Get away...! Smokings bad for ya!

Well duh. So is drinking, but at least when people drink they're not forcing alcohol down everyone else arnound them's throat.

Thank God someone is considering a smoking ban here!

I've only been in Germany for 6 months and I almost feel like I'm a smoker!!

It would be so nice to breath without constantly inhaling other people's smoke.

Of course, short of an absolute ban, you'd think the first step would just be to learn some smoking etiquette. Is it really possible that is just hasn't occured to most Germans that non-smokers REALLY don't want to breath in their crap?!?!?!?

Throw them in front of the train?

It would be the quickest solution...plus the smokers obviously don't care about our health, so why not return the favor...

It should be noted that I don't bear people who smoke where it's allowed any ill will. I'd prefer if more places were smoke-free, but I only get pissed off at the smokers themselves if they ignore no-smoking signs.

Yeah, but do smokers have a cigarette then fight? Or do smokers smoke too many ciggies before getting into a car and wiping out a young family from pleasantville. Fuck man, get a grip and put it into perspective...who gives a fuck? There are far more important things to worry about than ciggie smoke.

They do if what their smoking isn't sold in stores...

thats not even related to this. we are talking about cigarette smoking, not every possible drug that can be smoked.

But it's still in cigarette form... Not every smokable drug is..

Dude, if you are talking about weed, you need to go and educate yourself on it as your comment is a load of shite

@DK the topic of the thread is "Berlin to lead the way for smoking ban in Germany, Proposed plan to take effect in 2007"

Since it is against the law to smoke all other drugs etc "in cigarette form" , this topic therfore can only concern cigarette smoking.

To compare having a fag to smoking weed is stretching to say the least.

@Timmeh
As are 99% of yours on ALL the subjects you post on/about..

@FTC
It is not against the law to smoke weed in Germany, Only sell it or grow large quanities.. Get your facts straight. This ain't the US.

Good come back DK, razorsharp

@DK, go and spark up a doobie next to a police officer and see how legal it is. I think you'll find yourself unpleasantly surprised

It is heartening to know this isn't the US, thank you Dk.

I will attempt to get my facts straight. I was under the impression that it is against the law to smoke weed in Germany; and it varies from Land to Land, as to how you are dealt with if caught.

NONSENSE!


After you...

If you are an angry drunk or drink and drive then you have a problem. Drinking and driving is ILLEGAL, first off, and so is assault.
I have breathing problems and I think I have as much of a right to go out dancing as any other girl. Why do I have to choke? Furthermore, why does a non-smoking waitress have to get lung cancer from other people's bad choices? If someone drank and drove and killed someone, they would be convicted of a crime.

Me, for a start. How often do I go into a pub or café and am inconvenienced by drunk, fighting alchohol drinkers? Virtually never. How often do I go into a pub or café and come out stinking of cigarrette smoke? Every fucking time. I'm sure smokers would object if I was to say repeatedly fart in their face, or spray them with some mysterious smelly substance, but for cigarrette smoke there seems to be an exception.

I find it hard to believe that Berlin would try very hard to enforce such a ban, when I have had to sit through rides on the U-bahn with punks smoking IN THE CAR.

I would be happy if people could just hold on that little bit longer for their cancer fix (that U-bahn ride must really have been tough, dude), so that I don't get hit in the face with their first giant puff on a fresh cigarette as they are on the escalator/stairs to the street level. It's just so inconsiderate. There are people trapped behind you, and the wind blows it into our faces!

Wow, in the Ubahn cars? I would never put up with this, nor have I ever seen it, but with my experience with poorly mannered Berlin teens and young adults as well as "look the other way" typical Berlin citizens, I can firmly believe that this has transpired. I guess scratching windows, graffiti and vandelism happen under the same circumstance. I think if one person speaks up others will follow. Also any threatening or aggressive disprespectful behaviour from the subjects gives you the right to either pull the emergency chord and/or have the police waiting at the next station- I have witnessed this twice and they will escort the offender off in custody.

BTW, Im new on the forum and I am really glad Ive found this. Very informative and interesting.

i read an article in the paper last month - my german's still not too good, but i believe it said that they tried last year to make a national ban, but it was found to be unconstitutional for the national government to do it, i.e. they don't have the power. the power lies with the 16(?) lands/states. so now they are each making their own laws, although they're mostly the same. for berlin/brandenburg, the law will come into effect january 1st, 2008. smoking will be banned in most places. in bars and restaurants, it will only be allowed in a separate smoking room, which has to be a "side room", smaller than the main room, separated by a wall. there will be no exception for small corner bars, which some people had thought. smoking in discos/dance clubs, theatres, and many other places is banned completely. i don't have the full details, but you get the idea.

Here is the link to a recent TT discussion on that very subject.

It is amazing that Germany is the last heavy European nation to ban public smoking. Come on, if Italy & France did it and had majority support, Germany should have a long time ago. It reveals at what rate Germany progresses and/or sadly lags behind.

QUOTE "I must admit to being a smoker, however i am for the ban. My partner does not smoke, and as it works (very very well) in Ireland it is not too much of an inconvenience to pop outside (yes even in winter) for a ciggie."

Is there anyone out there who still believes in democracy?? I do not want to damage anyone else's health or to stop people going out because I smoke and truly accept the fact that it is a huge problem. However, I truly believe that there are democratic solutions to the problem and I do not understand why no one is prepared to consider them. Yes, non-smokers' rights have been ignored for years, but why are we now planning on completely ignoring smokers' rights? I have the right to smoke, it is legal and it is an inconvenience to "pop outside" for a ciggie, espeically when it is -10 degrees and snowing or lashing rain. It may be fine when you are in the pub for an hour and only have to go outside once, but if you are there for the whole evening it gets ridiculous. Its impossible to have a conversation and you end up with a table of ratty, irritated people, the non-smokers not enjoying themselves because they are left minding the coats the whole time, the smokers spending most of the evening outside or unhappy inside.
The smoking ban in Ireland is not working "very very well" - but no one is prepared to publicly admit that and prefer to tell funny stories about successful "smirting" (smoking/flirting - people who get together after meeting outside for a smoke!) Over 600 pubs have closed down since the ban came in, many pubs have completely lost their lunch time trade not to mind those many customers who used to come in for a coffee and a cigarette because their canteen, local cafe was already non-smoking. The pubs stink of farts, cheap perfume and sweat which ok, I know, is still better than breathing in other people's smoke, but is disgusting so I just had to mention it! And in Ireland hundreds of thousands of people now drink on the street which is illegal but that doesnt seem to bother anyone - it does however bother people (especially older people) who have to fight their way through crowds of drunken people standing on the street just to get to the shop - this is a real example, and even if still good-humoured, lots of drunks together can be pretty daunting and generally uncooperative.
Furthermore, after the ban came in in Ireland, the number of smokers in the country actually did go down for a while. Lots of people also decided to take the opportunity to give up, thinking the ban would make it easier. Now the figures have balanced out again and are the same as before. Maybe some people managed to give up, many didnt and the numbers of young people smoking has gone up. (40% of 18 to 34 year olds now smoke, I think its about 28% of the whole population) The ban does not seem to have deterred anyone or made smoking less acceptable in practice. Young women are apparently the worst - as in more young women are starting to smoke than men, which I think is similar in other countries, so obviously we need to find out why. Everyone under a certain age who smokes talks about how terrible it is and how they would like to give up - that is PC - only a few, and older generations have the courage to say that they really enjoy smoking, are prepared to face the consequences and could not imagine life without it. That might be incomprehensible to a non-smoker but it is true and there are many people, again, mainly older, who now do not go out to pubs at all because of the ban. Finally, the ban in Ireland has encouraged a Stasi type attitude with even a hotline set up for people to tell tales anonymously on bars that have illegal smoking sections (many have built conservatory type things which are not allowed - have to be open, ie no walls) or people who are breaking the ban. I dont find that to be a healthy development.
Ok, on the plus side, I can now go to a pub with my nieces and nephews in the day time - families can go out for a glass of wine and some pub grub on a Sunday etc., some non-smoking friends and relatives do go out more often, and non-smoking staff are suffering less. Thats great. But can there not be a compromise? Why is everyone so against separate smoking sections? Why are the cigarette companies and breweries not being forced to help fund proper ventilation systems - (good ones can reduce the smoke in the air to almost nothing)? Why are pubs not being given an option? Many would decide that it would be worth their while to become completely non-smoking because most of their business is food and families, others could opt for a separate smoking section etc. Tiny bars, of which there are many in Berlin, are a problem and I guess the only real solution there is an Irish type terrace (not quite a beer garden) with heating (the guy who sells those funny heaters that look like mushrooms in Ireland is now rolling in it - one success story) or an expensive ventilation system. I fully agree with a ban in restaurants, even as a smoker I find it pretty awful when someone lights up while I'm eating, but not pubs. I will definitely not go out so often when the ban comes in and I think Berlin's bars will suffer terribly, most of them only barely survive as it is.
Compromise and democracy not nanny state and blanket judgements. We can protect people's health while also protecting people's civil rights. Smokers are being made the scapegoats and all other problems are being conveniently ignored. Yes, people have come with the violence/domestic violence and alcohol, or obesity and high health costs - but the former is illegal as was already pointed out and the latter is still only affecting the person in question (- but what about our health insurance rates? Why not a tax on cream cakes?) The only really comparable thing is cars. You say you have a right to breathe clean air? Well, my dears, I'm afraid not one of us is breathing clean air. 3/4 of Berliners have swollen sinuses because of air pollution even if they dont smoke. I do not have a car, cycle everywhere and limit my air travel as much as possible. But I could still die from exhaust fumes. Why dont we pick on drivers too?
And one comment about weed - germany is certainly more liberal than other countries and you will most likely not get sent to prison for having 10 euros worth of grass in your pocket, but it is still illegal so be warned!!
Now, I'm sure I've added fuel to the fire, but before you berate me for wanting to pollute your lungs, please read again! I do fully agree that smoking is a problem, do not want to give anyone cancer, do not believe that smokers have the right to smoke everywhere (U-bahns, public buildings etc is really not on!) and know something has to be done. But with reason and sense! Why should I have to stay at home for the rest of my life? In my opinion 2 wrongs do not make a right!