German football hooliganism on the rise

So, after a good natured World Cup and all the happy shiny people thinking hooliganism was dead and buried it appears that the so called "English Disease" is alive and kicking in the fatherland.

The general view is that much of the violence stems from and is mostly prevalent in the former East Germany but the Bavarians shouldn't be feeling smug or complacent about that as one of the worst incidents of the weekend occurred between Augsburg and Munich 1860 fans in peace loving Bayern.


Strangest of all, however, is an increase in violence towards referees, hardly the battleground of the hardened soccer yob, where match officials have had to seek refuge from angry players.


The question is, why now, and, more importantly, how do they stop it ?



Photo via: View from the terrace - football news

How awful.

I don't know if it was in the UK or the US or elsewhere that they have been penalizing teams for their fans' violent behavior. That seems like a good idea to me, the assumption being that supporters won't jeopardize their teams' outcome by doing stupid things. Or if one fan seems to be heading in the direction of doing something stupid, the other fans will jump in and stop it.

Anybody know if that approach works?

doubt it

Banning orders have pretty much wiped out the casual/organisedl match day violence in the UK.

The orders usually have restrictions in them along the lines of ‘will be arrested and imprisoned if found within 3 miles of teams X’s ground during home games and 10 miles for away games.’ BTW you can get one of these orders without ever being convicted of a football related crime.

That's the part that I find really spooky about how they handle hooligans or "potential" hooligans.

years of matchday photos i guess

a mate who tried to come over for the world cup had no convictions, got turned back at the airport, had to go court about 4 weeks ago where they dropped all charges. They told him at the airport they had photos of him on 20+ occasions with known football hoolies. It stopped him getting to Munich tho.

BTW i would say banning orders are working becuase i dont know anyone who has one who , in their terms, doesnt deserve one.

This is the scary thing.

You've no conviction in a court of law, just the say-so of some copper.
Or you have the misfortune to have a similar name or similar birthday to someone else.
Or just unluckily in the wrong place at the wrong time.
And then they sieze your passport to stop you travelling, even without a conviction.

They practice such anti-libertarian stuff on supposed hooligans as they know there will be a level of public support.

There already a system of "Stadionverbot" in Germany.
But there are fans on it for example simply for holding up banners at matches protesting about commericalism in football and the way fans are treated. I'm not sure I've got it any more but during the WM a joint group of critical 1860-FC Bayern fans brought out a really good little brochure that covered the issues.

@tbfb- Yeah, ok- if it's working then that's great. But isn't it some sort of civil liberties violation or something?

Edit: Yeah, what MonksTown said.

As tbfb said though, all the guys i've known with these orders, be they convicted or otherwise, have undoubtably deserved them for undetected misdemeanours.

I'm not doubting that that there are some people who get them without conviction "deserve" them.
At the same time there are people who get them who don't.

I don't like the trend away from convition in a recognised court of law (whatever the faults of the justice system) in favour of instant executive penalties. ASBOs are the same innit.

All the wailing, teeth knashing and tearing of hair from German politicians of the centre-right about how bad the old authoritarian DDR was are negated when they themselves are happy to stop German citizens leaving the state. As has happened.

Just want to clear up all the shit that's been posted about Poland.

First off, pre-'39 yes, you could say there was a bit of a Germany/Russia"love-in". Basically we both new we couldn't go firm-on-firm with each otherfor a couple of years. September '39 we piled in to Poland from the West side, Russia came in from the east. Anyway, the Poles had some game lads but didn't stand a chance. #### me you should have seen the scruffy kuntz, on ####ing horses ! Ours were all dressers, all quality chaps. So that was that for Poland, we bided our time and let the Russian mob think they had some sort of a result, while we bowled all over Western Europe taking liberties everywhere we went. At this time we was UNDISPUTEDNUMBER 1 FIRM in my opinion, although others may see it different - WE DON'TTRAVEL DO WE !!!???.

We obviously expected to get a result in Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium and Luxemburg etc, but even we wassurprised when we went through the French Firm in a couple of weeks. For f*ckssake they even had a mob of English guesting for them till they got on their toes at Dunkirk. Looking back I reckon we should have chased harder andfinished the English then, but at the time we was happy enough with the result. We was on such a roll , we decided to take it to England - mid '40. Now I know England was on the back foot, but you have to say fair play to us for having a pop, they was virtually unbeaten at home for nigh on 900 years.

Anyway, like I say we took it to them with our Luftwaffe firm, and for a long time it looked like we'd come out on top. Fair play to the Englishthough, the Spitfire and Hurricane mobs were top drawer and in the end we had to pull out. Didn't help that the fat c*nt leading our firm into that row (H***** G******) had already claimed a result! Can call him what I want now - he topped himself before his court case on a Section 250!We did get some major results against the English at sea - they thought they could hide behind escorts but we broke through again and again. Thensome clever ####er sussed how to tap into our text messages (you should have seen the size of the ####ing mobiles in them days). That was game over in the Atlantic. The guvnor (AH) was well ####ed off, but he had decided we now had the numbers to take it to the Russians on their own manor. If you ask me he had enough on his plate with the English - and trying to sort out the Spurs mob at home (in fairness that was more HH acting on his own).

Anyway, we had a good go in summer '41 - any honest Reds on here will admit this - we run you all over the Ukraine and had you on the backfoot at Leningrad. At the same time we legged you all the way back to Moscow - poxy winter definitely robbed us of the result there.

That was a big winter all round. We'd had a bit of mutual respect with theJapanese mob for a while, but I've got to say I was well surprised when they steamed into the Yanks on their own turf. Suddenly we're at odds with every cnut and his dog. It all calmed down for a bit late winter, for me we spent too much time swapping shirts and not enough time concentrating on their firm - it was inevitable the Reds would come back, the numbers they can pull when they have to is ####ing amazing. Anyway, we run them again through '42, and chased them all the way back to Stalingrad. #### me did it go off there! It was toe-to-toe for months - seriously.

I know everyone talks the numbers up but I'm not lying if I say we took a good 200,000 there. Trouble is them ####ing Reds just wouldn't give up, and in then end we had to turn it in. It is well known one of our top boys (FvP) went down too easily for a lot of people's liking. In the end we had about 90,000 nicked, so you can't say we didn't make the effort.

Looking back that winter was where it all started to go wrong. England had got a major result at a pre-arranged meet in North Africa, the Americans were chasing the Japs across the Pacific, and that ####er (B***** H*****) and his mob were steadily bombing the #### out of us. We thought we could count on that little eyetie bastard (BM), but he got sorted out by his own firm, and suddenly we are on our own. I've got to be honest and say we didn't get too many results after that, Kharkov maybe, but then we got turned over big time at Kursk, when it was strictly Firm-on-Firm - all top boys, no baggage - and after that a lot of our older lads decided to turn it in. Some even had a go at THE top boy (AH) but it never come off. After England and the Americans decide they would come across to join in it was curtains, we got squeezed back from both sides and in the end, no question Russia got the result when it came out on top in Berlin. Crazy days though, makes me laugh with these lads today and all this ! "we brung60/100/150. . . . you didn't show" etc. ####ing hell lads - 60 years to late for the party.

No doubt some gobby ####er will come on and dispute what I say, but respect to the proper lads who know the score.

What?

Like it flogger, very good

Think he posted it a few years ago but still a classic

Ill have 2 of whatever he is having please. *hand held out*

Definitely british humour, not sure our North American friends get it at all

Just try and imagine the story teller being a young SS officer with a penchant for burberry, stone island and sovereign rings

Sometimes my Americanism shines through.

Don't worry. Our friends across the Channel love anything which can remotely link World War II to association football. I guess that using the German perspective adds a refreshing twist...

Ho hum, yawn. It's called a joke and you would have to understand the way it is written JW, clearly you don't.

I think you're reading more into what I wrote than was intended - I didn't comment on whether I thought it was funny or not.

In that case i stand corrected and apologise JW

Back on topic, there is clearly a major problem here rivalling what we had in England in the late 70's/early 80's, do they need to talk to UK bobbies and see what they did or is it ok and we think it will just peter out ?

No problem - no need to apologize either!

Any action to stop hooliganism has to be in conjunction with the fans, the majority of whom of course are not involved and find this ruining their experiences of football.

How do you want to involve the fans? Most of the time they are stuck between a rock and a hard place - heavy handed policing on the one hand and being at the mercy of hooligan groups on the other.

think the youth has a lot of anger and frustration and pissed off with the system . for example a lot of companies take on a lot of interns with no intention of taking them on at the end of the internship maybe fighting is just a way of releasing there frustration

There are plenty of suppoerrters groups who would be able to give an input.

I can have a couple of guesses what they won't want: Frog marches from stations to stadiums.
Puritanical bans on beer and pubs forced to close.
Overbearing security and ID checks.
Admission only for registered fans / season ticket holders.

etc etc

I'll see if i can find that leaflet thing maybe later.

Well, what was the modl that the UK bobbies used ? It has to be similar, disaffected people, high unemployment, loyalty rule for the only important thing in life etc etc

Surely best to use what has worked ?

You have your finger on it bluedave in that it is a social phenomena.

My GUESStemate would be that a combination of things happenend in the UK:
Some of th hoolies just "grew up". A period of a fairly decent economy for some ople eased the dissafection.
Ecstasy came along and people went off beer for that and becasme all loved up.

Seems to me that regardless of what may have worked 25 years ago in England, maybe these days a high-tech solution would be in order.

More police cameras in and around stadiums, season tickets with a photo which is retained by the club? That kind of thing?

IMOH the best way to sort things is:

1 Ban mobile phones inside football grounds
2 Continue with banning orders
3 Encourage families to football matches (families at football WTF is all that about? It puts me off going)

This tho will never stop the casual encounter when 10 lads from club A try to get into pub full of club B or lads from club A bump into lads from club B round the town before or after the match.

It's the same thing about filling all pubs with fucking pastel coloured sofas and offering a frappacinolatte based drinks choice. If you ask for a pint they look at your suspiciosly and more than 3 drinks in a 24 hour period is a "binge".

translates as they had kids and had to settle down. Thing was about 6-7 years ago most of the 70 hardcore found that their kids left home and they had free time again and started going to matches. A lot of the top boys lifted their heads during this time. In their early 40's most were known to the Old Bill and watched for a couple of seasons before large scale arrests occured.


Sort of true.

Most of the top dealers (where i live anyway) are all well known hoolies (70's hardcore) or had connections to loacal firms. Instead of meeting up for an off they were organising (e), speed and charlie. and making a lot of money in the process. Things were getting lively at football during the late 90's but banning orders have killed it dead. I know around 50-60 people on these banning orders and have been for about 5 years now.

From what I hear talking to Augsburg fans who were actually at the game and witnessed the events, it appears that the police were a trifle heavy-handed in their approach, and the "broken windows" incident related to a broken window in a fan bus in which all occupants were arrested, stripped down to their underwear and locked in the police cells for 6 hours.

One of the girls arrested is even considering suing the police over hte incident..

That sounds about right

Oh. And that bird that got arrested may have "made up" a few things according to the paper today. And her "concerned Father" was a few cells down and believed to be one of the ring leaders for the trouble caused by the particular bus full of 1860 fans... Nice Family

some general hoolie vids.

England DVD

Oldschool Millwall

Germany V England Euro 2000

Quiet World Cup Wasnt it

World Cup 2006
Highlights:
3:10 guy gets proper smacked
3:30 England fan talks of cutting a head off
4:03 Say hello to ‘Jasper’ Stoke City under5's (btw hes a wanker and some stoke boys think he was undercover Old Bill all along)

More World Cup

More stuff

More world cup

More

More

even more stuff