Explaining chadors and burqas to young children - Germany

Waiting for a U bahn yesterday with my 4 year old daughter, we sat near a lady wearing a full black chador/ burqa with a rectangle for her eyes to see out of. My daughter was very taken aback by the fact that her face was covered.

We had the following conversation:

My daughter " Why is she dressed like that?"

Me "Because that is how women dress in her country"

Daughter "Well we are in our* country now"

Me "Well the good thing about "our*" country is that you can wear whatever you like. I think she likes wearing it"

Daughter "Why?"

Me " She feels comfortable wearing it, she likes it." Quickly changes subject.

* we have been here all of 5 months, she has identified with Germany totally already

Not really sure what I should have said, I am not bringing my children up in a religious atmosphere so I didn't want to bring God into it at this point (If I had said God wants her to wear it, that wouldn't have been the right answer anyway). I also didn't want to assume she was oppressed!

For discussion purposes if anyone is having a boring day...

yups.. boring day it is!

Even if you're not bringing her up with religion can't you just say she believes she should wear it and where she comes from she wears it so she wants to wear it here?
If your daughter still is confused then say something more on a 4yr old level such as she might like____ (certain stufed animal or toy or game or ice cream flavor) and think it's very important (stuffed animal or blanket to sleep) and she slept with it (or if food ate it) when she was in Australia or wherever and she still sleeps with it (eats it, plays w/ it) now that she's here and so it's the same for the other woman and what she's wearing.

i know sleeping with a stuffed animal is different than a chador, but your daughter may understand if you put it that way since you don't feel like explaining the religious bit.

Also, even if you're not raising your child with religion that doesn't mean she cannot be exposed to it, does it? I know she's only 4 and cannot fully grasp the concept yet, but just a question for the future.

That is a good explanation Mere, I will use that, thanks!

My daughter used to go to church regularly with my parents in Australia, so she is familiar with a lot of concepts of God/ religion, but I haven't yet decided what and how I am going to present spirtuality to her. My husband and his family are extremely anti religion so its up to me really...but you are right, she's starting to get to that age.

yeah i think relgion is a tricky one. If you are strictly relgious then it would probably mean you raise your child that way. If you're not then you have decisions to make

Personally, I think even if you do not believe in it you should still understand the basica ideas/concepts. This becomes hard as a parent because then the choices regarding do you expose your child to a general concept (eg christianity or whatever) or a mix of all different ones or let them decide later if they wish to learn about relgion.

Luckily Renia you still have time! At 4 she's starting to be able to understand a bit, but you still have time (at least a few years).

might be a stupid idea but you could also find a book or album with pictures of various cultures including some women wearing the chardor explaining to her the there are different cultures in our world...

Here's as good a thread as any to point out that wearing such clothing in the West is entirely counter to their purpose and should thus be seen as a violation of the rules of the Koran which mandate that women dress "modestly" since women wearing such clothing in Western countries actually draw more attention to themselves.

woof.

Isnt it specifically related to sections of the koran specifically stating that the showing of hair is being the yardstick used to measure that modesty though, rather than merely avoiding attention?

I think covering up more than the hair is probably cultural rather than religious...?

Bad Doggie, this is actually a very good point. Quakers used to have to wear very drab and boring clothing as well, nothign fancy etc partyly out of a wish to avoid vanity. But the traditional Quaker "uniforms" were dropped by many when it was realised they were actually becoming vain about wearing what actually clearly identified them as Quakers.

On the contrary, the "modesty" rule is about covering up their bodies, so they are abiding by it.

yups planetmoni good idea and it's definately never too early to start teaching about different cultures. At the sametime the kid will understand, but not entirely. She's 4 and 4 year olds normally are not able to fully grasp that concept, but nevertheless it's never too early to start teaching about different cultures and how no one culture is correct or better.

Even if they draw more attention to themselves, you still can't see anything.

@mere, yes, I am beseiged by questions all the time now (4 year olds huh!, very wearying) about people's skin colour and clothes. I think the problem was where we lived in Brisbane was almost uniformly caucasian.

I think I will do as planetmoni suggested

You could just say she's wearing it because in her country, woman don't like other men from outside her family to see them, and she believes it should be that way, so she does it here too. And that really would be quite accurately the reason why she wears it, without bringing religion into it.

Damn, MicroX. That's one of the best answers that I've seen on this board in a very long time.

woof.

Thanks MicroX, that is perfect...

Next question from 4 year old...

But why don't the men want other men to see their women???

Exactly my question - would a 4 year-old ask this?

Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khumūr over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards God, that ye may attain Bliss. 24:30-31

from the wiki.

Sorry, that would be an outright lie. Don't tell me that after the Islamic revolution in Iran, for example, women decided to shroud themselves in chadors overnight because all of a sudden they didn't want to be seen by other men. The rule is imposed by the men, not chosen by the women. And let's not even start talking about all those women who were beaten, or worse, for not wearing a burqa in Afghanistan during the regime of the Taleban.

@ Cookie, yes, mine would.

Well, yes and no. The Prophet's teachings say the women should cover their hair, and also wear clothing that does not bring out the curves of the body, and if the girl's face is extremely beautiful, she could optionally cover her face too. So it does have its roots in religion. How far people implement those teachings (and when they start considering themselves "extremely beautiful" :-)) is a cultural thing, or is left to personal choice in some cultures. In Egypt for example, we have the complete spectrum of girls who don't cover their hair, through those who cover it minimally, those who take care not to show their figure but still wear bright colors and leave their face exposed, up to those that wear a full burqa or niqab.

oh yes you can! ... it just requires more imagination

@Chicago, oh, you're one of those are you??

I don't want to go into an argument here about Iran. But in general, no it's not a lie. Usually the women are very much convinced of what they are doing. (I'm an Egyptian Muslim, and I grew up in Kuwait with many male and female Iranian friends, so I should know.) And even if it is the man who imposes it on his wife, then it is still accurate to say that she "doesn't like other men to see her", even if it's just to please her husband. Strictly speaking, it is imposed by the Quran not by the men, the men are just required to advise their wives to abide to the Quran.

Afghanistan is special case, it was a revolt against being forced to do something by the Taliban, and its not the usual healthy Islamic culture, so it's not a valid example.

if you mean "male", then yes

I have an easier suggestion. Next time you meet a woman wearing a burqa, you can tell your daughter to just go over and ask her. :-)

Are you familiar with the expression "You can't have your cake and eat it"?

@Renia, In case religion does come into it, you can point out if you like that covering women's hair was normal for more than just the Muslim religion. Im Catholic. In my family, my generation is the first one NOT to cover their heads going into church because the nuns at the schoold didnt enforce it anymore; however, if your walking around on an early Sunday morning you can still see some of the old Bavarian ladies going into church with their heads covered, not often but sometimes. Its same with the "old country" (irish, italian, polish etc) ladies in my neighbourhood in the US.

It's a real situation experienced by real people, which in my opinion is more than enough to make it a valid example.

The woman they met on the U-bahn was most probably not from Afghanistan. If she was, then according to your argument, there's no reason why she would be wearing the burqa here, since she's gotten away from the Taliban. It's perhaps a valid example to discuss what happens when real people live in a country where an extremist religious regime is in control, but that's not what we're talking about here.

OTOH, Iran could be a valid example, because people there are still living in relative peace.

And again, if you don't believe me, best thing is to go over an ask her. :-)

What about the way men dress?
Can a woman tell her husband: I do not want other women outside the family to see you. Please, cover yourself...Does it work that way as well?

why bring religion into it...just say they are wearing their national costumes like people in dirndls and lederhosen. no need to argue about women being beaten down to believe it and do it.

I dont see what the problem is, yes women in Islam and stories about how they are no one in that society abound. dressing down or walking naked doesnt make you liberated? so when is it enough...to just have some leg showing/ clevage perhaps? friggin topless?

they may be forced to follow whatever and this maybe the feeling you carry bear in mind that usually women in these countries are the first to jump when another woman discards her burqha! I have seen this plenty of times.

Yes it does. It's just that the parts of a man that will arouse a woman are different. In most abiding Islamic families, if the man wears anything that draws attention to the features of their body or goes around wearing shorts, the wife will object.

But you're still not getting it. I said "women don't like other men from outside her family to see them". I said nothing about their husband telling them anything, and this is what you don't want to accept. Ask any Muslim girl why she covers her head or wears a niqab, and she'll point out to you the verses in the Quran that someone quoted in an earlier post. She won't say that her husband makes her do it.

Perhaps the "to young children" in the thread title should be removed. Seems to me there is a lot of misunderstanding out there in general.

Its so funny watching western women feeling so concerned for the liberation of muslim women who choose to adopt a modest approach, when the very same western women go to such great, expensive and often uncomfortable lengths to attempt to please their men by striving to adopt an image of beauty thats been concocted by the fashion industry for purposes of making money. Liberation indeed! Start by burning your own vogue magazines and free yourselves from that opression before trying to pull other cultures, who have a much simpler solution to the fear of their own appearance, into your own delusions.

How does one explain lipstick or high heels to a child?

I'm not attempting to argue but rather would like a clarification.
What does someone's hair or face have to do w/ arousal? I don't understand how a guy could become arroused by a woman's hair or face. Fine, perhaps I can, but how is that different than a female seeing a male's face or hair and being intrigued?

@Keydeck: That's funny, but very true.

That's because whenever they asked the question as young children, they got answers from other people who assumed they knew (drawing on stereotypical perceptions of a foreign culture), and nobody ever bothered to go and ask the said woman herself.

Which western women are you referring to? The only posts of that nature have been from men.

Personally *as a western woman* I have absolutely no issue with it and I'm glad we live in a society where we can wear what we want which includes chadors, burqas, miniskirts and crop tops.

Further, why are men so egotistical to think woman are the only ones who work on their personal appearance to please the opposite sex? Have you checked out the gyms and tanning salons lately, you'll find just as many men there as women. You'll find extensive ranges of beauty products tailored specifically towards men. Superficiality is not a female phenomenon.

Well, like with most religions, everything is down to the interpretation.
Many Quran readers will interpret the verses to imply modesty, others to imply full coverage for women only, just as how in other religions, interpretation of the relevant Holy text will define dress and other behaviour.
Renia, you can tell your kid that people believe lots of different things. This lady covers herself because that's what she believes she should do and other people believe other things as well.
The whole niqab = opression thing isn't probably fitting for a four-year-old.
I like the idea of asking as well.

Just tell your kids it's because she's a Jedi.

@Kza
Western women can still choose wether they comply to the beautyand clothing standards or not. In my experience, the range of freedom for muslim women is a lot more narrow. Honestly, you cannot really compare them.

FFS...telll her that she is a superhero and that is the costume she uses to hide her identity!!!

they are young children after all!!!

Well we can discuss that for ages, but the ultimate answer is, because the Quran said so.

The Quran says a woman's whole body except her face and hands is seductive to a man, while a man has only to cover the area from his belly button down to his knees and otherwise not protray his body in a seductive way, regardless of what he is covering or not.

As Muslims, we cannot start to question whether that difference is valid, because we already accepted the Quran to be the direct words of God based on other evidence. But we can try to understand why the Quran says what it says.

Having said that, I do not think that a female is attracted to a man by his face or hair as much as men are attracted to a girl with a pretty face or hair. It's been demonstrated by studies (and I've noticed mentioned by women even here on TT over and over again) that women are first attracted to a man by what is in his head rather than his body, while a man would fall for an attractive-looking woman any time.

Basically anything that is taboo or hidden becomes more attractive and arousing. There was a time when in western society the ankle of a woman was considered the most arousing feature.

I would agree with that too as a clever unbiased answer, if you don't want to tell her about religion just yet, and it still leaves it open for her to explore that culture and others if she's interested as she grows up.

@ Keydeck, no won't wash, she has seen all the Star Wars movies and knows full well what a Jedi is

Jawa perhaps?

If your child has seen the *spit* new Star Wars films then explaining Muslim dress codes are the least of your problems.

No, she's seen the old ones only... (its her father's religion). She also comes to me with questions such as "How did Luke know there was some good left in his father?"... (true!)

I hope you told her, "Because that's what it said in the script". Can't be misleading the young ones now.

What do you mean that's what it said in the script...isn't it based on a true story ?