The "Freizügigkeitsbescheinigung" residence permit

would appreciate it if anyone had an idea on this one. I am starting a new job and need a freizügigkeitsgenehmigung. The old Aufenthaltserlaubnis will not suffice because it no longer exists for EU citizens as Im sure many of you know. I went to the Ausländeramt to get this yesterday with my passport, and my meldeschein and other documents and I was told that they needed by old green aufenthaltserlaubnis document in order to process the freizügigkeitsgenehmigung. My aufenthaltserlaubnis has expired a few months ago and despite looking everywhere today, i cant find the damn thing. They are insisting that I have it tho. Can they insist that I supply them with an expired aufenthaltserlaubnis? Is not my passport and meldebescheinigung enough? I thought the whole reason for getting rid of the aufenthaltserlaubnis in the first place was to make things easier for EU citizens? Whats the bloody point if you have to go through all this pain again!!

Whats one of those - and why would one need one?

It says that EU citizens are allowed to move freely within Germany. My last employer didnt care about it but my new employer does. I can't sign any contract until I provide it. Crazy stuff.

I've been here 25 years and never heard of such a thing.

Nor has the German Wikipedia: Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung

This is the new law since 2005 which says EU citizens have to have this document. I presume its fine if you have been here for 25 years and have an unlimted aufenthaltsrecht but all my new colleagues here have had to get this.

http://www.aufenthaltstitel.de/freizuegigkeitsgeu.html

... ... tell them you lost your Aufenthaltserlaubnis and ask them what you need to do to get a new one ... they'll probably then just issue you with the Freizügigkeitsschein. I mean, it's not like they can reissue you an Aufenthaltserlaubnis.
stupid thing about the Freizügigkeitsschein is that it's an A4 print out and that they expect you to carry it around with you with your passport. don't understand why they just can't put a decent stamp in the passport.

See paragraph 5 of the Act

Sounds like your new employer is a tosser. I hope it's a contract and not a perm job.

Thanks britMUC. I thought that was the best idea. I have no idea though why they are insisting on this. Why make life sooooooooo complicated

My new employer is the civil service. I have had to supply them with crates of documents over the past couple of months including things like my birth cert. Trying to explain that in every country in the world you need a birth cert to get a passport, and asking why my passport alone will not suffice, was like trying to create a revolution. I am convinced that this bureaucracy exists to keep people in jobs

Oh - so you have seen the light?

It's bollocks. You register your address on arrival (show your passport) at your local Amt. They then give you an A4 piece of paper to say that you may live here and that you don't need any other documentation. End of story.

true. but all i have got when i say this is shaking heads. I have decided that the easier option is just to go along with what they say. I will take the "I lost my green document, what do I do now?" approach. Thanks

... bureaucracy exists so that uneducated lazy wankers in such positions can assert power over people with prospects of real jobs !!!
when i got my Freizügigkeitsschein, I was asked all sorts of questions as to my income (wasn't yet working here), my health insurance, how I was going to survive here, bla bla bla ... I more or less told them to mind their own business and that as an EU citizen I have a right to live here. I lived here before, I can speak german, so I wasn't intimidated by their antics. They got pretty pissed off, made me wait ages, disputed some of my documents, but in the end they had to issue me with the Freizügigkeitsschein. I refuse to play game with these tossers !!

When I registered in Hamburg, I brought my passport & a job contract (at that point it was only an offer, that didn't seem to matter). In theory I think they have the right to check that you can support yourself, but I don't know if they have the right to stop you getting a permit... anyway the Hamburg guy photocopied stuff, took 5mins, asked no other questions & I got the piece of paper in the post a week later.

Then of course they mispelt my middle name but I just popped back in & he printed me another copy...

There is a section on it in the handbook for germany I think?

It's also, some places, called a Freizuegigkeitsbescheinigung - may be worth googling that (also with/without umlaut).

Graham

When I registered here and got my Meldeschein they asked me if I also wanted the Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung. I asked what it was and she told me and said I really don't need it as being an EU citizen no one would ever ask me for it. She said if I ever did need it I just had to come by with my Meldeschein and they'd issue it. I once got asked by some passport guy at airport security if I had one and I said yes, he said do you have it with you and I said no and he smiled and said ok, how nice that you speak German and that was it. I guess it sounds like you just have a really anal employer as it seems to be a completely pointless document but still, you should be able to get it with your Meldeschein.

It IS a pointless doccument, they know it and they don't normally issue them.

Only when employers are being total tossers as in this case for example.

Correct. When my Aufenthaltserlaubnis expired they asked me if I wanted one of these green bits of A4 (a.k.a. Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung) or not. They said it's not necessary to have one (let alone carry it around with you), but I said yes please, I might as well, not knowing whether or when it might come in handy to show to some mighty important twat or other who demands to see it.
I've never needed it and I'm buggered if I know where it is now...

I was at the KVR yesterday and was told to go and get that document from one of the offices.

I showed up with my passport and as the guy was processing it i said i thought i didn't need one as i am european, the guy replied that i don't need it and did i want him to continue, i said no, not really and the guy just said ok fine see you.

Why are they processing documents that they and we don't need ?

You DO need them in some case.
Like the above mentioned employer being a tosser.

Also, if you apply for a visa to visit somehwere, the issuing state often demands you apply in your "home" country. Then you need one of these bits of paper that roves germany is your "home" despite not being a citizen.

The freedom of movement law reflects EU directive 2004/38/EC "Right of Union citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States"

You don't actually have an unlimited right to live in another country. Initially at least you need to prove that you will not be a burden on the state in which you choose to live, e.g. you have enough cash & insurance, you have a family member to support you, or you have a job.

You aquire an unlimited right to remain in a country once you have been there legally for 5 years.

The "Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung" proves that you comply with these conditions. Now if you have a job, then it is obvious that you do so, but the form could be useful if you rely on one of the other possible conditions.

To anyone who has one of these useless pieces of paper, just what exactly is the information that is included on one? Does it have marital status on and such like?

It's not a useless piece of paper - I would not have been able to register
my German car without it (change of ownership). They needed my passport as well.
It's a simple letter with a stamp on it .
Contents :- Name, Forename
DOB
Nationality
Address (i.e. where you are officially registered as living)
Date of registration
A statement saying you are an EU citizen and have the right of abode in the BRD
and the right to enter the country.
A statement saying that the document is only valid in conjunction with passport no. ???
For Brits you need a new one every 10 years - when you renew your UK passport.

You definitely do not need a Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung to register a car if you are an resident EU citizen. Your Anmeldung (or Meldebestätigung) and passport are all that are required. I don't have one (and see no need to have one) and regularly register vehicles.

Sounds like a license to get your bits out in Public!

Yorkshirelad6 - Maybe not where you live. I was asked for mine in Hamburg
and it was carefully perused - my Meldebestätigung was not asked for however.

That's merely a sign of incompetence on behalf of the person asking to see it.

Ms Nosey - The lady perusing my Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung was the Abteilungsleiterin,
so one can assume she knew what she was doing.
Probably the Meldebestätigung would have been just as good.
My Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung was needed again last week when I applied for a Gewerbeschein
at the Handelskammer (behind the Rathaus - well worth a look around).

You applied for a Gewerbeschein at the Handelskammer? Hummmm...

You're making the fatal mistake of assuming that someone in charge of a local government department knows what they are doing. This is rarely the case and your example proves the point.

Yorkshirelad6 - Yes, I did apply at the Hamburg Handelskammer and was courteously received
and within 30 minutes my Gewerbeschein was issued to me.
Perhaps things are different in the Frei und Hansa Stadt.
MrNosey - I have no reason to believe that that local government officials in Germany
(or for that matter in the UK) are other than generally competent.
(Having worked in Local Government, the Civil Service and the private sector in the UK
and for the public and private sectors in Germany, I find your slur unwarranted).
Considering that your boss in the public services is a succession of politicians
it's a miracle that the public services work at all.

I live in Berlin - could somebody please tell me how I go about getting this Frezügigkeitsbescheinigung? Can I download the form from somewhere and where do I go to get it officially registered?
Many thanks

One Google search later...

Thanks but I suppose things are much easier when you actually speak and understand German!! Googling in a foreign language is never so simple!!!

For heavens sake, it's not rocket science. I Googled for "Frezügigkeitsbescheinigung" and "Berlin". Rather than actually type it myself I copied and pasted "Frezügigkeitsbescheinigung" from your post, but you spelled it wrong. Google cleverly corrected it to "Freizügigkeitsbescheinigung" and searched again. The link I entered was second in the list. The links on the target pages are the paperwork. You don't need to be a cunning linguist to do that...

[quote name='jeremyhay' date='Jun 29 2008, 10:00 pm' post='1322696']
MrNosey - I have no reason to believe that that local government officials in Germany
(or for that matter in the UK) are other than generally competent.
(/quote]

*Bangs head against brick wall*
Just go to the relevant HH website for details on documents necessary for registering a car or phone them up. You'll find that you do not need that doc for registering your vehicle. Perhaps she just read it out of interest because you handed it to her.

http://fhh.hamburg.de/stadt/Aktuell/behoer...sung/start.html

MrNoey

"Für die Zulassung eines Fahrzeuges für eine Privatperson ist die Vorlage eines gültigen Personalausweises oder des gültigen Reisepasses in Verbindung mit der Meldebestätigung Ihrer Einwohnerstelle erforderlich."

I did not have my Meldebestätigung with me. My passport and Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung sufficed.
Naturally the info on the Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung links up on the computer with my Meldebestätigung details.

Do not make the mistake of underestimating folk - the lady clearly knew what she was doing.

The lady clearly did not need the Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung, as you were previously saying. She bent the rules and accepted it because you turned up unprepared and without the correct documentation. Good on her for being flexible. Next time you'll know which are the correct documents to take.

I was not unprepared and without the correct documentation. My German partner told me what to to take
and it worked. The Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung and passport is clearly equivalent to a Meldebestätigung.
In fact my Meldebestätigung predates my passport by years so the Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung is effectively not
just the same thing but more up to date.
Try and get a Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung without a Meldebestätigung at the same address and you will have more than
a few problems

This is definitely not the case. The Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung is quite simply a confirmation that a person can enter, travel and reside freely within the EU. It does not need to be specific to an address, or even Germany. Even with a passport it is not definitive proof of your address, only that you exist, and are allowed to live here. A Meldebestätigung is a registration of domicile and is required to prove you actually live at a specific address, clearly a requirement when registering a car (for example in case you later commit an offence and the police need to find you). Notwithstanding that if you have a recent Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung and can prove your address the folks in the Zulassungsstelle might look kindly on you, but they are definitely bending the rules.

Just to reiterate the point, my Freizügigkeitsbescheinigung has an old address on it and is issued by a different Landkreis to the one I am currently living in - which doesn't matter as it is referenced to my passport number and is therefore valid until I need to get a new passport.

I don't think I'd have much luck trying to use it as a proof of address (which is in effect all the Meldebestätigung is) when registering a car.

What are you talking about? The Meldebestätigung must always be current. If you move, you re-register to your new address. I'll not bother explaining what purpose the Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung serves because other people have already done this clearly.

He's probably confusing "Anmeldung" with "Meldebstätigung". The former is the original registration when moving into a new home, and is perfectly valid for the use of registering a car for 2, possibly 3 years after it's issued, depending on the person completing the formalities in the Zulassungstelle. After that time you need a Meldebestätigung which is simply a supplementary document confirming your residence at the same address. I've registered 3 vehicles in the last 12 months, and never had a problem with my Meldebestätigung, and certainly have never needed or been requested to provide a Freizügigkeitsbescheinugung, which is fine given I don't have one, as they are an optional extra here.

So far as car registration is concerned, personal papers required are
Gültiger Personalausweis mit aktueller Anschrift bzw. aktueller Meldebestätigung oder gültiger Reisepass mit aktueller Meldebestätigung (Source)
No mention of the Freizügigkeitsbescheinugung - but if it's recent and has your address on it (does it? - I've never seen one). Then I guess, at a pinch, it'll do.

MrNosey - I took the documents my (experienced in the ways of German bureaucracy) German partner told me to.
It worked.
No bending of the the rules as clearly a Freizügigkeitsgenehmigung and Meldeschein are virtually the same thing.

They're not even close.