11th September 2001

So we have the conspiracy theory thread and we have the "Ooh, weren't those 3,000 people just the bravest people on the planet" thread, and the "Will you be watching CNN" thread.

There doesn't, however, appear to be a thread for people who feel that this is all a little bit OTT, but who also don't believe that the attack was perpetrated by aliens who had previously been kept prisoner in Roswell and sexually abused by George Bush Snr. I got told off for "trampling" on the emotional thread, even though the person who started that thread later admitted it was over the top.

So this thread is purely for people who, like me, think that, yes, it was a tragic event, but so are the deaths of millions of people each year from Aids, poverty, cancer, car accidents etc etc. How can we remember these people when we are obsessing over the 3,000 in New York? Over 2.4 million people died in the USA in 2001; will the remaining 99.875% be remembered today?

Amen to that.
I can't believe the fuss made about this date when you think about all the other tragic events that happen to people around the world.
It's fucking embarrassing.

innit

I

* don't believe *all* the conspiracy theories
* don't believe we know the real truth, or at least all of it yet
* do believe this day is worth remembering; I still remember the shock and paralysis of that day and its aftermarth
* do believe we shouldn't forget the others who have died as a result of this war
* do think that most of the sloppiness is OTT. Remember, yes, but with dignity and respect, without turnign it into a media-spin fight for viewing figures.

Agreed agreed agreed agreed with all of OG's points. Also agree with the fact that it seems unfair to focus on 9/11 when there are so many other tragedies occurring all over the world. But I also realise that most of that is politically motivated.

What about a thread for setting the emotions aside for a moment and looking objectively and impartially at the attacks from a technical perspective and admiring the attacks for their success and effectiveness and the very magnitude of their significance as a world changing event? Regardless of any personal feelings one might have towards deaths on either side. Perhaps in a way similar to that in which one may admire the campaigns of Caesar regardless of ones personal feelings towards either the Romans or their opponents in battle.

/signed

Like the 7th of July perhaps?

Count me in. On the sappy thread someone said,


Propoganda works, apparently. Getting people "all emotional" and keeping them that way has worked brilliantly for the Bush administration over the last five years. Interesting that at a time when the American press and a larger share of the American public are finally (!) starting to question the invasion of Iraq seriously, the networks are pulling out all the stops (again) to pull those sappy emotional heartstrings.

I find it breathtaking how easily the public can be manipulated by government propangada. They're like a bunch of obedient sheep. I mean, the manipulation is not even subtle, and never has been.

Sad, and breathtaking.

I didn't start my thread implying they were the greatest heros of our time, blah, blah, etc. I also don't see the harm in taking today to remember them. You're more than welcome to start a thread commemorating cancer victims, tsunami victims, or landmine victims for all I care, then there's the Hurricane Katrina victims, victims of malnutrition, or naturally also people who have been innocently slaughtered at the hands of the Americans. You can start a thread on whatever your little heart desires- that's the beauty of Toytown. No need to be a shit about it though.

many thanks to the kind mod who removed my fuckwittish posts from the soppy mournful thread

Erm, nope.
Do you mean the London bombings? July 7 is just another date. There are not gazillions of documentaries, websites, movies and forum threads with July 7 as the title, and there won't be. Good point.

You would think that people could just keep their mouths shut for just 24 hours a year.

This is incredible. People bitch all year long about Bush, the US, US foreign policy, Fox News, neo-cons, CNN, Wolf Blitzer, wars for oil, McDonalds, Karl Rove, Starbucks, fat Americans, stupid Americans, evil Americans, the religious right, toothless Democrats, allegedly subservient prime ministers, scheming Republicans, American accents, Israel, $3 Billion a year, American English, Bill O'Reilly, American airport security measures, soccer versus football, southern hicks, American imperialism. Right. Right?

It truly is the end of the world as we know it...

and I feel fine..

I guess there's no point in paying rememberance to anyone who has died. Ever.
We really should do away with all these memorial days that pay homage because lets face it, people die all the time and it's a pointless excercise. In fact, we really should do away with funerals in general, how can we mourn our own personal losses when people contstantly die?
Please stop all this soppy bullshit and behave like emotionless automatons.

@eurovol

I don't. Some people need to get a fucking life and just learn to learn what it means to respect the deceased.

Why?

See post #16.

I'm with Jules.

I'd rather disregard the obscene language, if you don't mind. As for the rest, I don't see why talking about the events of September 11th, their aftermath and worldwide implications would be in any way disrespectful to those that died in the attacks.

Why? No one dictates what other dates people are allowed to discuss things on.
I think of it the other day around. Every other day of the year I'll watch/absorb or disregard the absolute saturation of media coverage about this event. I respect the deceased, but they don't deserve more respect than anyone else who has died in tragic circumstances or those affected by bigger disasters.
The anniversary of events is always a time people will discuss all aspects of it. What makes this any different apart from the fact Sept 11 it gets extreme publicity the rest of the year also?

The only thing I see disrespectful in this thread is that discussing Sept 11 just got likened to discussing McDonalds or Starbucks, simply because it happened in America.
Astonishing.

REM dude, REM.

I could possibly feel more compassion for the WTC victims, if only there was more acknowledgement of the legitimacy of the pentagon attacks (being a military target etc), but most people seem happy enough to lump them both together, so I guess I can too.

I just wish it wasnt Al Qaida or any other terrorists being the only ones with the balls to stand up to the US though. Theres clearly a need for some sort of international justice against the US, but the UN aint gonna do it, (I would love to be supporting the UN in this I really would). Any other sovereign nations or coalitions of nations arent gonna do it, due to the inevitable reduction in quality of life it would bring to their citizens due to the huge military muscle of the US, and their vast WMD stockpile. I really wish there were other options, alternatives to terror, that were just as effective, and I really really wish there were other heroes we could look towards other than terrorists like Al Qaida, but until then, its a less than trivial matter of the lesser of two evils, and I am sorry, but when I think about the threat of the US vs the threat of Al Qaida, then you cant really blame anyone for sitting on the fence, at least until the attacks. The American response to the attacks however should help people decide one way or the other, you either believe the response was helpful, productive and appropriate, or you dont.

Its a shitty shitty situation, the Americans had a chance to bring about a more peaceful world after the attacks, but they didnt, they chose war, violence, xenophobia and death, and shunned freedom, respect, dialoge, openness and peace, and thats what this anniversary means to me.

why? so that the US can indulge in a day of self-righteousness? terrorism is something that plagues many nations 365 days a year. by asking people shut up, you seem to be implying that your sole day of terrorism is somehow more important and gives america the right to suppress any dissenting voice. many people have had to put up with terror for periods much longer than just one day back in 2001.

btw, did anyone see "Für alle Fälle Fitz" on ZDF yesterday evening? ... an interesting theme, how 9/11 has 'overshadowed' other struggles against terrorism, specifically northern ireland. one day's terrorism on u.s. soil has rendered the 30 odd year ulster struggle as insignificant, deflected media attention away from it, distracted politicians from home affairs & has left those impacted feeling cheated & abandoned!!! no one is singing the praises of the forgotten heroes in that struggle. food for thought ...

It's just showing respect for the deceased by refraining from commenting on the circumstances surrounding their death for just 24 hours - especially considering the issue is discussed ad nauseam all year around. Apparently even this is too much to ask some people and it frankly puts them on the same level as those on the other side of the political spectrum who will manipulate the emotions September 11th stir up to jusitfy the war on terror and US foreign policy in general. Today just is not appropriate for any kind of politics, in my humble opinion.

Today is the most appropriate day for discussing the issues. We went to war in their name's and attacked Iraq because the Bush Administration insinuated over and over again that Saddam had a hand in this day. At least half of them were likely Democrats and disapprove of them being used as pawns in Bush's TWAT. Did anyone see the Cheney smoke and mirrors interview yesterday? Now there is a twat!

As you wish, you're just lowering yourself to their level.

@Jules

we come from opposite ends of the political spectrum but I agree with you absolutely on this point

Surely you can see that this event means different things to different people, it may even mean just as much, but in totally different ways. Sure people who knew the victims are going to concentrate on that aspect, some Americans caught up in the politics are going to look at it with that angle as being the most important. Citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq are going to have a rather different, but equally valid view. Why should the views and feelings of only one group of people be the only valid one?

If anyone were to pick one single valid way to look and react to these events, which I dont believe is the right thing to do, as everyones voice deserves to be heard, then surely its those who are the most uninvolved, impartial, and unconnected to the events, those who didnt lose any loved ones, arent citizens of any involved countries, and who dont have any political capital invested in one side or the other, those who lack an emotional vested interest in the subject and are in the best position to comment from an objective point of view.

Everyone else is biased, and possibly has their judgement clouded by emotion, and their views should be taken with that bias in account, but their views should still be heard, and are just as important and valid as those who take a more objective approach.

Agree with Jules, should we not be allowed to remember the dead from this tragedy. They still remember the enniskillen bombings, and that was only 11 people and almost 20 years ago. This was the biggest attack on american soil in modern times, and over 3000 people were killed. If this had happened in any country or city in the western world, it would have been the same. There are plenty of things to complain about CNN and americans, but this is not one of them. If it affected people to the extent where they want to remember and mourn the dead, then why not let them.

Oh I agree people should be able to do that, but thats not what Jules seems to be saying, he seems to be saying thats ALL people should be allowed to do. Incidentally, there is a whole thread left alone for people who wish to concentrate on that aspect, so they should be happy with that, and should refrain from this thread as we have refrained from theirs.

All I am saying is that anyone going on the thread created for reminiscing etc. and making comments about over-reaction is showing a remendous amount os disrespect. Think about doing it at the rememberance service in New York itself, you would either get beaten up or arrested.

Agreed, thankfully the moderators seem to have done a great job keeping the other thread clean, for the couple of off-topic posts that did end up there.

i find it disrespectful to all victims of terrorism that we can get carried away with the drama & hype of 9/11 just because it was the biggest, most visual & the first on american soil. you know, that's the sort of reaction that will challenge those terrorists to plan something bigger & more visually fantastic next time. they now know how to get your attention.
the images of 9/11 as it happened were just like a hollywood movie with special effects. and because the events of bali, jakarta, madrid, london etc. etc. have less dramatic appeal, we're perhaps more likely to forget them, though the victims are as innocent as 9/11 and as equally deserving of rememberence. perhaps we should remember them today too!
as for not having a moan about americans or cnn on this day, i disagree. what is it about u.s. foreign policy that provoked 9/11 ? today is the day for rethinking foreign policy!

Perhaps people just need to be quiet so Jules can go back to sleep.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world will keep moving forward.

Yeah that is a good observation, it would have been the same if it happened anywhere in the Western world, and probably not so if it happened in less significant or non-oil-rich parts of the world. That's probably one of the truly the saddest aspects of the events of that day. That's my mild cynicism for ya.

Why? They're dead! I think JW needs redirecting to the soppy thread.

Oi, people shouldn't refrain from commenting about things, that's just human nature.

We already have a sub-forum for masturbating about TT; there should be a new sub-forum for expressing commentary, opinions, beliefs, thoughts, and other stuff which should be properly and easily ignored.

9/11 was not the first terrorist attack on US soil, throughout history there have been many in the US - conducted by both domestic and international terrorists. Apparently, you just don't know of them. For instance: the Oklahoma City bombing, the first attack on the world trade center, the embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya.

Here's a picture of the Wall Street bombing which happened back in the 1920s:



9/11 was the most visual attack ever conducted globally (for that matter), this was the intention of terrorists (shock and awe). And I don't think anyone would ever deny that other victims of al-Qaeda are not to be equally as remembered.

Talk about a country having a 400 year macabre obsession with terrorism: Guy Fawkes.

Guy even sort of resembles osama

On the subject of Guy Fawkes, which I know we are really not, I reckon that there are more injuries caused by the english larking about with rockets once a year than there were caused by Hezbollah's utterly shit aim in the recent jewish/arab spat.

It has nothing to do with showing respect for the dead. This may be your version of showing respect but not other peoples. Perhaps you could show respect for those that died on that day by exhibiting tolerance for others. Who knows, maybe if we all learned to tolerate each other better such things wouldn't occur in the first place.
Telling others they are of a lower level than you because you don't agree with allowing Sept 11 discussion today shows more disrespect and conceit than any other comments to me.

Today is just not appropriate for any kind of intolerence, in my humble opinion.


Like the thousands who flock to Gallipoli to drink and party on the site itself every anniversary at the rememberance services? Like I said, it should be more about tolerence and not dictating behaviour. If you want to show your respect, do so, but have respect for the living as well as the dead.

I will not tolerate intolerance!

Exackery.
Tell me what to do and I'll tell you where to go. Misery in circles.

I might go over to the remembering-the-dead thread now and talk further about disrespect.

I lost 15 pounds! Oh wait this isnt the weight loss thread...

Topic closed by admin.