Money stolen from a bank account

Hi!

Folks need your advice...

The story (its a big story.. trying to pack it in a nutshell.. but still it would appear long)...

I created an account with Deutsche Bank. They had posted me the debit card and ATM pin, but that did not reach me. I was very new in Germany.. just a fortnight (in Feb06).. and was not aware of anything.. (offcourse I still dont understand german language).

I waited for 2 weeks and after checking at the bank, discovered that the card and ATM had been posted on time, plus came an unpleasant surprise - money had already been withdrawn from my account using the ATM card. IT WAS SHOCKING!! (luckily I had just 1100Euros in my account.. all gone..)

The bank representative was too smart.. and tried to show lot of sympathy for me and I assumed he would help me. He said he would check out.. and revert in 2/3 weeks ..
In the meanwhile i made a police complaint too.. the police did the investigation.. and traced the photgraph of a lady who stole the money from my account via an ATM.. but thats it.. the case was closed.. as they could not trace the lady.(have to confess.. the policeman was very prompt..)

now the bank says.. that since they sent to card and pin.. and since its a normal procedure to send by normal post.. and since i did not receive it.. and since i did not intimate them within 3 days of not receiving the card/pin... and since it was misused.. and since it is not their mistake.. there is nothing they can do.. HOW EASY!!

it was not my fault that I did not receive the card and Pin. Its the banks responsibility to ensure that the customer gets the card and pin... what if i fall ill, have an accident... surely i cannot inform them.. its not a fool proof process..

but no ear to this..

NOW.. is there anything I can do to get my money back.. I am very pessimistic about this.. but when i learnt about Toytown.. i thought there may be some vivid ideas to look for..

the amount may be petty, but its my earned money.. and would surely give a fight to get it back
please advice. please help

bye

Have you already been to a lawyer about this?

the amount was just 1100 euros.. and then not sure what the lawyer would charge..

If you opened the account in February, presumably the shit hit the fan in or around March and considering your comments about "promptness" various bank declarations about not returning money were made soon after. Why have you waited until now to seek help?

Interesting one. I wouldn't go straight to a lawyer as that costs money!

First someone needs to find out how the banking insurance works and the banking code works in Germany. I would expect that there are set procedure for unauthorised withdrawals on an a/c i.e. who is responsible etc.

Anyhow, good luck working it out but I suggest you find out what the Banking rules are before making a decision on your next step. Not easy when you don't speak German but maybe someone here will be able to help...

ya that a very obvious query...

actually i was going through a different patch.. i mean i had to focuss on something else.. my wife was pregnant.. delivery was planned in may..but it was a premature delivery in april.. a bit of complications.. but all is well now.. no problems..

which branch of Deutsch Bank was it? call them or go in and make an appointment to see the branch manager. when you go to the appointment, take along a native German speaker with you, as well as all documentation (police reports/correspondence between you and the bank) tell the bank you want your money back else you will go to a lawyer.

Try asking them how much?

Sorry, but you don't seem too bothered/serious about losing this money.

been there.. done that...
unfortunately ..no positives

I'd definitely go to a lawyer then, if it will cost more than 1100€ (which they will tell you outright) then I'd abandon it. if not definitely worth chasing, if not only for the principle.

This site seems to be a cheap and quick way to find out if you have any chances of retrieving your money or not: http://www.frag-einen-anwalt.de/

u right.. principally if you see...

the entire process is faulty..
the bank sends the card and pin by normal post.. which gives opportunity for committing such thefts..

They always do - but seperately. First the card and a few days later the pin.

Didsbury's Daftest

thanks for the URL.. i will see how it can help me..

We've talked about this a few times (and it seems we are normally in the dark to these big shitty companies). So finally I am ringing now to find out where I stand; since we could all find ourselves in the same boat - imagine 5,000 Euros stolen from your a/c and no compensation!!!

The banks are terrible - I am on the phone with Citibank UK and the first person didn't help the 2nd person is better but when you want the rules written down in black and white - they don't seem to be very helpful...it's like they don't want the customer to know exactly where they stand...

Finally...here is the info.

Citibank UK: - No time limit on notification - fraud allegations goes to fraud dept. They send out a fraud form...you state which transactions are disputed and then you are refunded in 48 hrs.. Sounds good in theory..

Term and conditions - See protecting your a/c Will have to read this myself...

I will also find out for my Citibank Germany a/c as well...

Stanford,
Thanks for this update.. interesting reading...
as i see it ... need to be well informed and only then approach the bank which gives the confidence to discuss/negotiate effectively...

Did you have your name on your letter box..?

Do you have a copy of the Photo from the ATM?
Does the Photo look like your Post lady?

Has it been determined how this woman got hold of both your card and your PIN number? Were they sent to her by mistake or did she somehow get access to your letterbox or through some other method.

If you can prove that it wasn't you, then surely the Bank has to cough up !!
My vISA was stolen in the POST and it was 4 Week till I noticed. I got a statement and couldn't believe my eyes !!!

I could prove that I wasn't in the UK at the time, so I had to pay nothing, and got my money back!!

Sorry Guys,

But the detail of why and how it happened are academic! Especially as most fraud procedure don't require you to be a detective and work these things out.

So what the issue here is who is liable and how do you go about kicking in the Bank's procedures...there should be some but alas Big Companies and Banks are notorious at using customer ignorance to line their bloody pockets...

Working on Citibank Germany still - Contract german is not my strong point..

Its quite easy to obtain/ retain a post box key.

I still have one from my old flat.. I could quite easily keep checking the new residants mail waiting for something that looks like bank info!

Grinner

since i was new in Germany.. and put up in a Hotel for the first month... I had given the company address.. so that was not the issue.. also i had initially received a post from the bank that my account has been activated plus other details... so not posting issues as such.
yes.. the policeman managed to get the photo of the lady... through their network.. and then he did investigate at my office, bank and post. But he could not get any further links..

As it was never in your possession, I don't think that this rule applies. Most real banks wave this rule anyway if you have reported the lost card in a timely fashion from when you discovered it missing.
I would raise all hell at your local branch and threaten to go to the press about such irreprehensible actions on the part of the bank. You should also determine from the Post that it was in fact delivered to the correct address. I would also follow up with the police on the lady who stole it. Get a picture of her, make copies, post them around your building and neighborhood, take one to the bank with you and to the press when the bank refuses to give in.
Get loud! Make them blink first!

Not really. If it can be shown that you are a victim of fault due to your own stupidity (e.g. carrying your PIN along with you card) then the banks/credit card companies aren't liable. If you haven't done anything wrong then they are at fault.

My friend who works for the Sparkasse München, said the best way to get your money back is to write to the Vorstand (CEO etc) of the bank, giving them 7 days to return your money or you will contact Bild, or one of the consumer TV progs, they normally back down as they dont like any publicity that makes their system look unsafe.

his problem is, he waited so long.

the same thing happened to a friend in berlin, but with credit card. seems there is a theft-protection thing included in the credit card.

why is the bank at fault? they sent out the letters and the matter is closed. unless you know the standard bank procedure and you can prove that the bank didn't follow them, nobody is really at fault.

i think it is more the system that card and pin gets mailed to you and there is no system to ensure that the right person receives them. ie in england i had to pick up my card at the branch and only the pin was sent to me.

(what about complaining to the post service?)

SleeplessinMunich,

But in this case it was already said that the Police proved she hadn't taken the money so those comments should be taken in light of this discussion.

If the police have already done that then the question is what are the Bank procedures not a game of trying to find the lady!!! Anyhow...still working on Citibank Germany...There normally are in such things Banking regulation and codes (but again hard to find such things) as it seems the industry doesn't like informed customers...

Things like bank cards and credit cards really should be sent per einschreiben.

I had 900 Euros "stolen" from my account a couple of years ago, by someone apparently using my EC card and PIN in Bulgaria, even though I have never been to Bulgaria and neither has my card. It seems this was part of a major operation where criminals had obtained the card details and PIN codes of thousands of bank customers (presumably using gadgets like fake keypads that fit over the real ones on the ATM machines and record your PIN as you type it in) and used this info to make duplicate cards with which they then withdrew as much cash as they could from ATMs in Bulgaria. This activity was noticed by some organisation (don't remember what it's called) that oversees international money transfers, who alerted the banks of the victims. So my bank (HypoVereinsbank) phoned me immediately, and blocked my card. I got the missing amount refunded by the bank, but before they could/would do this, I had to report the crime to the police and get an "Aktenzeichen" (what's that in English? - police file registration number?) as the bank needed this in order to claim the loss from their insurance.

So my understanding is that banks are insured against customers' losses due to fraud, if the customer can show convincingly that there was no negligence on his/her part.

I wonder though, in AZIF's case, how did it happen that both the card and the PIN went missing? They are mailed separately, on different dates. I could imagine one perhaps going astray in the post, but not both - the postal service is very reliable here. Was someone stealing mail out of AZIF's mailbox? Not much the bank can do about that, I guess.

Guys,

It is a red herring to talk about who is at fault as I've said there are Banking Regulations and Codes on this things which effectively are on the side of the customer as the Banking system works on customer confidence...i.e. like Deposit insurance etc.

I would expect that the sytem is similiar to a credit card...i.e. there is fraud - it is no one's fault but the criminal but still you get your money back... And we are all happy to take and use credit cards knowing that!

Anyhow, lets do some digging and speak from a position of knowledge about the rules rather than speculation...

GT - "case number" would be the closest translation, I reckon.

Just Spoke to my Citibank Germany... Not as successful as the UK one. And as usual - They wouldn't direct me to the terms and conditions in their written form via the internet (he claims it would help the criminals!). I will have another check anyhow...

The system is similiar for Citibank Germany - there is a fraud Department and you would have to follow a similiar process. However he would not say if there is a cut off period of when you must claim but did say you should check your a/c weekly and that they wouldn't necessary pay the money back in 48hrs.

He said I should go into a bank for more info*...so I shall continue to chase as I'd like to know where I stand on these issues...

But the devil in these things is in THE DETAILS of the contract!!! Contracts are bitches

* The conversation was in German but I think I got the info that I wanted...

Having a photo of a woman taking cash out the ATM is irrelevant because AZIF cannot prove that he did not provide that woman with the card and PIN number. The odds of guessing the correct PIN number is so small that banks assume all withdrawals are genuine unless the customer can prove otherwise.

I have wondered in the past about German banks sending out bank cards in the normal post. As ER said, sending them registered would be safer. I consider sending cards through the post unregistered to be negligent on the part of the banks, but presumably they don't see it that way.

Given the time that has lapsed since the incident (and your wife expecting a baby in May does not prevent you going to the bank in March), I think you have now lost any chance of reclaiming the funds. Given that you consider the sum to be "only" €1100, I think you had best forget about it.

How can you ever prove that you didn't give someone your pin. As fas as I am aware to prove a negative is nearby impossible - oder And if that was the burden of proof we'd hardly get anything back from the banks in case of fraud. If I am wrong, can anyhow tell me how you prove such a thing?

I think it is incumbent on us (as customer) to get informed and learn our rights. As for the time lapsed, I've found out for Citibank UK they say there is no time limit on it and the German Chap at Citibank wouldn't say there is a cut off period...

Don't let the bank's get away with it...they make enough money as it is!!!

Small Town Boy

i accept all your comments in good will... atleast something to cheers about.

and your argument is very genuine.. that the lady could be my "partner in crime".. and since that lady could not be traced.. the policeman closed the case.

i have roamed the world.. and to the best of my knowledge, banks in most countries send cards/pin by courier service.. however.. in germany its by normal post...

i would consider not to discuss about why i did not initiate correct action in first place.. i was in a real mess... thats what i can tell.. and ACCEPTED that i was passive in persuing this issue..

and i was lucky that my advance salary was not credited to my account.. else i would have died of shock!!.. so in comparision 1100 would be a little less shocking..

This document (in German) lists court rulings related to the misuse of EC-cards:

https://www.kartensicherheit.de/shared/data...g_warentest.pdf

The rulings sound complicated and partially contradictory. The case of "never having received the EC card in the first place" does not seem to be covered, though.

Sparkasee not only send the PIN and card seperately but you have to take the letter into your branch and sign it to get the card activated.

Or even better, adopt the same system that other Banks/CC Companies use in the UK and send the cards out unactivated. You need to call a number on the sticker and answer several security questions first, then they activate it. Simple, effective, safe !

I found that Germany is a nation of penny pinchers, always looking for a cheaper alternative, hence the reason why they don't want to adopt a different system.

1. It would cost more money to arrange a call centre team for card activations.
2. Registered post costs a couple of Euros more than normal mail.

I think if there was a similar small claims procedure in Germany as there is in England, the banks would soon change their tune. They know fine well that Otto normalburger can't afford to involve a lawyer for 1000 euros. A small claim could be defended on its own, the claimant recieves "guidance" and leeway from the judge in such matters. And the overall cost, £35.

@Azif,

I think - especially after my phone call they will use the time lapse as an extra way of weasling out of paying but I think you still may have a leg to stand on...just a case of finding all the relevant info. and then contacting the correct people in the bank.

I think your case is a wake-up call to us all. I talked about this a month ago with colleagues and no one knew (me included) where they stood in such fraud cases...so thanks for a least warning the rest of us to get informed.

2 weeks is not long at all.


The bank isn't at fault, but neither is the customer. Banks have insurance for theft and fraud protection and more often than not eat the losses in order to keep goodwill. The insurance company is the one that tells the bank how long the customer has to report lost or stolen cards and that is based on the premiums that the bank wishes to pay. Give the customers more time, then the bank will have to pay larger premiums and vice versa.

Heed my advice-complain until they give in. Get the picture of the lady using your card and threaten to go to the press with it if they don't eat the loss. Your hands never touched the cards so the cards really have nothing to do with it. The bank was robbed using your access rights. Most banks give you x number of days after you get your monthly statement to question any and all charges made to your account.

Stanford and people
thanks for your opinions/tips/recommendations/perspectives...
would keep you posted on this...

I have a Commerzbank account and the procedure there is unless I call/write to them that I have received the card, they do not enable the card. Surely banks should have such procedures when they send cards and pins on unsecured ordinary posts. I would suggest, keep bugging them, more so in English . Keep writting about this to all the fax numbers of the bank's people. They sure have to eat this...

...just for sake of update... u know what

I GOT MY MONEY BACK!

as suggested by jellyone, wrote to the CEO, and I did get a reply in 2 weeks that your case would be investigated. After a month, I found my account credited.
Thanks everyone for your support.

Thanks for letting us know what happened and glad to read that you got the cash back.

Thanks for the update - good to know you were successful.

edit:irrelevant post

Thanks for the update. Hopefully this will move the banks one step closer towards sending their cards by registered post.