Small German town needs money to keep Nazis out

Check this out, the Wilhelm Tietjen Foundation for Fertilization LTD, a group that promotes "racial purity", is seeking to buy a hotel in Delmenhorst for Neo-Nazi "research", activities and conferences. The group has offer 4.2 million for the building, the townspeople have come up with 2.6. Anyone with spare million or two lying about pony up eh. Its a good cause.

Full story from Deutsche Welle: Small German Town Unites to Battle Neo-Nazi


Related topic: German town says no to Nazi hotel

Couldn't the city just refuse a permit for such a center?

see: http://www.fuer-delmenhorst.de

according to this morning's independent they only managed to raise €625k, and the way is clear for the right-wing scum to buy the place

Give them their building, what harm could the Nazis ever be?

I think it is great what they have organized in such a short time. It just shows how much these groups are disliked. However, I think it may be a done deal between the owner and the Nazis. The reports are that the owner has had enough - (there is no love lost between him and the Stadt Delmenhorst) and the owner just wants to off load his debt of around €2m.

It is also my understanding that the Stadt had first right of refusal. I too wondered why the Stadt just can't refuse the appropriate Genehemigung. Perhaps that's yet to come... Then I suppose it will end up in the courts...

What exactly is the problem? If they're not hurting anyone or breaking any laws they should be allowed to buy whatever property they like.

Disallowing one group of people the same freedoms that another can enjoy based their beliefs alone is pure discrimination and is in essence doing exactly the same thing that people hate the nazis for doing. I'm glad they didn't come up with enough money to keep them out.

agreeing with ER

In principle I agree with ER. However, I suspect the townspeople might not want this in their backyard. What did they ever do to make their town's name potentially synonymous with neo-Nazis in future?

I suspect the place will require a lot of money from the town for police to provide security, besides all the other potential nuisances. That's why I'm surprised the town government didn't refuse them a permit.

If the locals really needed the cash, why didn't they ask their most famous resident? That's singer Sarah Connor btw (not the character in the Terminator films).

Yup, you're sooo right ER.
It's time that we show these bloody foreigners that they are not wanted here. And if we have to beat up a few of them to get the message across, so what?
First we'll clean Delmenhorst and then the rest of Germany.
We belief that only a dead foreigner is a good foreigner and we've got the right to express our beliefs. Let's start "expressing".
[/irony]

Well I think cinzia makes a good point on the security costs ... on the other hand - Northern Ireland - Orange marches - load o bigots and all kinds o rubbish - In places like the Garveaghy road the Cafflicks get all upset and mayhem ensues - which guarentees the loonies exposure and year on year it gets even bigger - whereas in Donegal they just sit on a hill , sell them cheap booze and laugh at them marching in the summer heat.

(PLenty of scummers on de Cafflick side too albeit).

The problems in Northern Ireland have gone on for decades now, though.

Obviously Northern Ireland and other places could stand as an example of why the people of Delmenhorst would rather it didn't even start in their town.

I think in this case people are happy to discriminate.

Delmenhorst is a small town. I am sure they don't want to be a magnet for the Rechtscene, Skinheads, neo-nazis and whatever else falls into that category. Democracy is all very well and good but how democratic are the Nazi philosphies? As they are planning to use the building as an educational/conference faciity just what do you think the Nazis are going to be teaching?? Lets learn how to get on with our fellow Ausländers??? Get real, these people are dangerous and it is a pity that the law makers still haven't figured out a way to stop them preaching their messages of hate.

Are you completely unaware of the blatant hypocrisy in your post?

It's like saying you're only racist against racists. You either think discrimination is right or wrong, there aren't any degrees to which discrimination is right. It either is or it isn't and if you think it is then you have something in common with the group you are denouncing.

there are Arabs moving in to my neighbourhood! Muslims to boot! I don't want my neighbourhood being synonomous with islamic fundamentalists who bomb innocents! Will anyone help me raise the funds to buy up all the property in my neighbourhood so I can stop these pesky Arabs moving in?

Be happy they're not Jehovah witnesses mate ... now that crowd you don't want...

A question for ER: If it was al qaida who wanted to start a training center there, would your arguments still be the same?

Yes absolutely, under the law everyone should be treated equally. There can be no exceptions or we errode the basic foundations of democracy.

As soon as a person or organisation does something illegaly or breaks the law then that's another issue completely but you can't convict someone of a crime just because they believe differently than you.

OG, you know better than to compare Arabs and Muslims with neo-Nazis. Catastrophe's comparison of al-Qaeda and neo-Nazis is a little closer.

It's not like neo-Nazis have any legitimate, peaceful social agenda.

ER: The problem is that the buyer/donee, Mr Rieger, has been convicted for hate speech and using Nazi symbols in the last years. So if he's planning a right-wing education center, people have every right to be asked first on the same grounds as they're asked whether they'd like to have brothels, airports, or waste dumps in a particular area of their town.

I don't see it as being any different to campaigning against, for example, a motorway or nuclear dump. As long as the law isn't broken to prevent this racial purity group buying the hotel then I guess its ok

Are people really thinking the government should step in and prevent this guy from selling his hotel? What if he has to sell it to help fund a family members operation or something? As soon as you let something like that happen, property values will plummet as property ownership, a fairly well understood legal concept, suddenly means something different.

Anyway germany already has its anti-free speech laws preventing neo nazis from doing certain things, and this obviously doesnt come under that law, so its basically a bunch of hysterical left wing extremists, not so much attacking nazism, but attacking property rights.

Still, if they had managed to raise enough money, if they thought it was that important to them, then good on them. They didnt though, all parties have put their money where their mouths are and obviously it wasnt as important to the community to keep them out as it was to the buyer to buy the hotel. Thats the free market in action, and it has worked perfectly in this case.


Thats a very subjective statement one could make about any religous, artistic, political, business, or cultural group one might be opposed to.

Since when is having a legitimate peaceful social agenda the only relevant grounds for propety ownership anyway?

I'd care to disagree, it's not very subjective at all, more a fact based on historic evidence. I sincerely doubt one could make that statement about any group one opposes. For instance I may think vegans are bizarre, but I seriously doubt their agenda is spreading hatred and intolerance of eaters of animal products!

I'm not under the impression that the issue is who owns the hotel. The issue is what use the owner wants to put it to.

Maybe you're aware of some agenda the neo-Nazis have that doesn't involve ethnic cleansing or Aryan supremacy, Kza? I myself view these as anti-social, but maybe you don't.

A lot more people have died at the hands of the Catholic Church than those of Neo-Nazi's. I guess we should stop churches from being built as well?

@Hams...what about PETA. They can be quite vicious. Like a starving dog with a bone, just not an animal bone. Just kidding, in case its not clear.

Fair enough. But it's not as if the whole purpose of the Catholic Church is to kill, say, non-Catholics.

ah now you are just trying to stir the pot a bit too much here?

Sorry to be really lame and cliche but:

@jml - PETA/vegans very bizarre all round!

I'd have to agree with ER, they should not be banned from buying the property, but should be closely monitored/bugged/infiltrated and as soon as they step out of line with re. to the law, closed down and operations suspended.

@ER

Who said that? as he scurriously stores it in his memory bank for use at a future date..

I also discovered that i am very slow at typing and cannot use the quote function correctly.

Yeah pretty much what hams says, except you cant monitor or spy on them because thats illegal. (Well it might be legal to a certain extent but I wouldnt want to see taxpayers resources being wasted on trying to catch them out) But definitly, as soon as any law is broken it should be handled according to the law.

I am not even convinced the label "neo-nazi" is appropriatly applied to this group. Heck they might just be producing pro-white literature, which I dont have much of a problem with, just like I dont have any problem with pro black, pro asian or pro communist or pro woman or anything literature. Its all free speech innit, and if it helps someone identify better with their race, religion or culture then thats gotta be a good thing. Too many young kids around these days without anything to identify with, without anything to stand up for because its bad to be a member of a race and be proud of it these days.

Sure, no one's granting them immunity from the law. I'd imagine it will be watched very closely anyway, not only by law enforcement officials but by the many citizens against their origanisation. Common sense would tell me that if they really were planning on having illegal operations take place they wouldn't be drawing so much attention to themselves and this property. i'd be much more worried about the underground operations that no one knows about.

Voltaire (if my memory of grade 9 social studies is correct)

Voltaire.

Guess I was just beaten to eat it. It has been rumored that it isn't an exact quote, sort of like Churchill with "blood, sweat and tears"...

Probably Voltaire didn't say it in English, either.

i think until you actually have proof that what they want to use the building for is illegal you have no right to make assumptions based on their beliefs. Just as no-one has a right to assume that an Arab and/or a Muslim is a fanatical fundamentalist islamic suicide bomber with the intent to kill innocent westerners.

Kza: "Too many young kids around these days without anything to identify with, without anything to stand up for because its bad to be a member of a race and be proud of it these days"

So true, because of some crappy law, there was a family (loads probably) in England who were threatened with prosecution during the World Cup because they were flying the St. Georges flag outside their house. Planning to scrap that law now tho

@cantthinkofawittyname

I was in the UK during the world cup and I saw loads of flags flying from Shops to Bars to Houses. The Sun did run a campaign to stop petty objections to flying of the St. George flag...in place like Bars or Schools - highlighting the offending establishments.

Not sure what law you were refering to or where you got your information from! But it would be wrong to leave the impression if it is not true that 1. a law exists in the UK 2. that people were threatened with prosecution if no law exists.

Anyhow maybe you could enlighten us...

but the people haven't been suggesting that the person be banned from selling it or that the prospective purchasers are banned from buying. The people were just trying to raise enough money to buy the property at the going market rate as the local government has a first option on the property - where is the talk of bans etc?

@Boomtown_rat


One person suggested that the local Council should step in and stop the sale or withhold a permit or something but other than that I think most were supporting the sentiments of the town in trying to buy the property...

As was said there is nothing wrong with the Neo Nazi trying to buy the property just as there is nothing wrong with the town people trying to stop their plans by buying the property first or at a higher price...

Edited: Quote Added

Stanford...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5211952.stm

I'd say the BBC is a fairly reliable source

@Cantthinkofawittyname,

Thanks for supplying the link - I did see a documentary a few weeks back about the a man whose job it was to inspect the flags around London since there are all sorts of rules/bye laws about how they should be flown...i.e. in which order...Union Jack before a the Naval flags etc.

As regards the article...it didn't say they were being threatened with prosecution because of the flag per se but because (at least according to the Council):

[Quote] The council had claimed that a single vertical pole would have been fine but because two St George flags were flown at an angle to the house they were classed as advertising. [Quote]

So it would be wrong to leave the impression that it was the flag per se or that loads of people were threatenend just because of this one incident... sounds more like petty bureaucracy from a jumped up council nothing more nor less.

Edited:
I saw more flags on Cars, Shops, Schools and Bars in the London/Manchester than I saw in Munich...which was largely interperted as a good thing (within the press generally according to my readings) especially with the Sun's campaign!!!

More than one incident...

"The rule means thousands of football fans were technically breaking the law during the World Cup by displaying the Cross of St George"

But yeah, I see your point, fair enough.

Related topic: German town says no to Nazi hotel