Guenter Grass served in the Waffen-SS

He tried to enlist with the submariners when he was 15... too young. Two years new sub crews weren't that needed anymore. He didn't try once over but enlisted himself with (no draft - his own words) the SS tank corps, a new division called "Frundsberg" (german knight 15th century). That's what most the papers and Grass in an aired interview with Wickert stated.


Ah, only a few people like Adenauer (for his politics when he was chancellor), Kiesinger (late 1960s he was accused of having been an active member of the NS political elite, in fact he was an administrative in the Foreign Ministry and later on the Propaganda Ministry), Kohl (for visiting a grave yard-with I think Bush sen. (or was it Reagan?) were US and German soldiers are burried, about 50 of these were SS slodiers)... only a few incidents... mainly any conservative politician who was born before 45.

Obviously everybody wants to kick Grass in the balls now because he has always tended to occupy the moral high ground in Germany. I think it was the Süddeutsche that had an article putting forward the theory that even during the war he applied only to elite or those seen as elite units.

? Does that mean everything is fine as long as you're with the elite?

I hate that film ... watched it back in Uni and almost to a head lads were goin "Man this is the most messed up thing I've ever seen" , it's like the Omen with Damien thinking he's Aretha Franklin...

The point is that Grass wouldn't have even had a career as a typesetter had he been honest about his background. He was smart and played his cards right - what else can you say?

@Helterskelter

No by no means, but Grass would appear to hanker after being in the elite. During the war the Waffen SS not only had an reputation as an elite unit but they were also clothed with the myth of heroic sacrifice coupled with willingness of their commanders to decimate units in fierce uncompromising fighting. The submarine force was also seen as an elite and was used by the NS for propaganda purposes with the image of daring secretive warriors against the numerically superior foe blah blah blah.

Since the war Grass has staked out his claim to being a force above and beyond the normal German mentality and belonging to the moral high ground, in itself a form of elitism.

Even now he can once again claim to never have hidden or lied about his past and to the bravery of bringing an open secret once again into the public light. He can't lose. People will either admire his openness or his selfproclaimed openness, argue that it all happened so long ago and he has since redemmed himself or attempt to condem an old man looking back at a life as a giant of modern German literature.

hmm, I didn't know that. However, having checked, he criticised each of those individuals for being eager supporters of Nazi ideology. Something he has never been. Membership of the Waffen SS for a 17 year old does not imply a passionate belief in Nazi ideology surely?

It is weird that no one he ever served with ever came out and said anything, especially considering how high and mighty he's been about this kind of stuff...


The problem is that membership in the SS was a dark cloud over a lot of people's heads right after WWII, and especially anyone who would've gotten involved in the arts.

i partly disagree.
grass was 15 when he joined the reichsdienst, 17 when he joined the SS. he was teenager.

as to why he only "going public" now... i am not sure and i don't really care as grass is not important to me. he is an old man now.

I'll just say, sometimes I'll wake up at three in the morning with a cold sweat having had my dreams invaded by scenes from The Tin Drum. Shudder.

And the frenzy has been growing...
Spiegel first reported this story with little fanfare August 15th. There wasn't much excitement back then especially as this information was generally available and also


.
Then there was the Stern cover.

Now Spiegel gets stuck in.

don't be ridiculous. By that argument, most postwar German politicians, writers, film directors and academics would have been disqualified.

Even in 1945, there was a realisation that there was a big difference between the ideologues driving policy and the ordinary German participants. It was an absolute principle of the Quakers when they defied the hypocrisy of the Allied powers and provided food and shelter to the refugees across Germany and it became the guiding light of the new West German state that arose from the ruins.

In the immediate postwar period there was very much a conspiracy of silence - companies that traded with the Nazis like Seimens and Volkswagen continued to trade and other than those tried at Nurnberg, most other people continued in their positions.

I daresay if Grass had said something then he would have likely been ignored or advised to shut up. But Tin Drum is a masterpiece that transcends who he was - I really don't think a revelation of this sort would have either stopped it being published or stopped people reading it.

I was referring specifically to the arts. How many members of the SS made it even in the other fields you mentioned (writing, film, politics, etc.)?

Adenauer was part of the resistance - guess no Nazi supporter.
Kiesinger had dossiers on him by the Nazis stating he is not a relieable "Volksgenosse" - most likely no Nazi.
Kohl was born 1930 and was drafted as a Wehrmachtshelfer in 45 - too young.

Just because they are members of a conservative party it doesn't make them Nazis... but Grass volunteered for the Waffen SS.

Umm Herbert von Karajan (most recorded conductor in history) signed up with the Nazis in 33 and was shat upon for a long while (probably deserved it tho) after the war- curious fact - married a Jewess in 42 - guess he didnt agree with all of their shtuff.

What would most of us have done if we were around back then ? A 17 year old, most of whose life had been overshadowed or dominated by the NS regime ? Not knowing any alternative worldview unless some parent or friend had taken the risk of showing us another side of the coin.

I'm pretty sure I would have been swept up in the whole thing as much as anybody.

Why join some bog standard unit when you can go to one with more prestige, and better rations ? What else do you know when you are 17 ?

@ Yeti... uh 17 ... didnt they have porn back then?

There are probably many who did not make it public but those who did are as follows:

Martin Heidegger, philosopher
Herbert von Karajan, NSDAP member, conductor
Carl Schmitt, philosopher
Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, NSDAP member, soprano singer

The only people in the arts that I can find that were ostracised because of their Nazi pasts are Albert Speer the architect and Leni Reifenstahl the film-director. But then their involvement was much much more prominent than most Germans


actually he wasn't shat on in any particular way other than be criticised by some leftwingers and Jewsih groups. He joined the Berlin Philharmonic in 1938 and stayed with it continuously until he was made Musik Direktor for life in 1956. Some of his most memorable performances and recordings are during the period immediately after the War.

@Parnell

Course they did, you'ld be drooling over your BDM poster while getting shelled on. Although I think the threat of sudden violent death might focus your mind on getting the real thing as opposed to just reading the documentation.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/clas...t99/karajan.htm

But fate was to deal a cruel blow when the young conductor applied for Party membership in the Germany of the Nazis. That stigma was to stay throughout his entire life and it brought him absolutely nothing in return.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_von_Karajan
In 1946, Karajan gave his first post-war concert, in Vienna with the Vienna Philharmonic, but he was banned from further conducting activities by the Russian occupation authorities because of his Nazi party membership. That summer, he participated anonymously in the Salzburg Festival. The following year, he was allowed to resume conducting.

I agree with all that parnell. But he was not shunned and excluded for any considerable length of time (the Russian occupation was very shortlived after all) and his carrer did not go down the toilet in the way Jules seemed to be implying would have happened to Grass had he bared his own soul in 1946.