Opening a pub in Germany

Hi,

I've been working in IT now for 8 years and I've really had enough of it. The only thing that makes me get up and go to work is that fact that it pays the bills

A mate of mine brought up the topic of owning a pub a few weeks back and I've been thinking hard about it. We got talking about it last night again and I've more or less convinced myself why not. The job I have at the moment just bores me and this would be a new challenge for me. I've always wanted to own a pub later on in life, but now is as good a time as any!

Now the problem, where to begin??? The only experience I have is on the customer side of the counter and my mate is not much more experienced. Anyone have any experience in opening a business here and where to start?

Where do you want to open the pub?
What kind of pub?
Do you have capital or do you need investors?

more info...

Get yourself a business plan.

Get a fair bit of money!
ie: Tens of thousands of Euros.

You should bear in mind that there are "too many" pubs in Munich so you need to get yourself in a decent section of the market.

No good asking me! But clearly Hazza seems to have got this pretty much correct, and from the little I know the guys at the Twisted Bavarian pretty much wrong.

But my tuppence worth would be under no circumstances do a business plan relying on TT punters 'cos in reality they would be a tiny percentage of the business you need - and being blunt (with all due respect being one of them) are a fairly fickle bunch.

Location would be Hamburg, not the Keets though. We were thinking Altona. There are a few nice bars there that are busy most nights and a few bars that are also empty. But we think their is potential for taking some of that custom.

We are sure on the style yet, while we are Irish we are not convinced that's the way to go. But what we are aiming at is a nice relaxed/chilled atmosphere with music and good food, not your typical bar food though - more bagel/baps - aiming more at the German taste!

We would need some Investors as well.

We are still at a very early stage here, just looking for a head's up on how to approach a business plan. Also are there any types of grants funds available for this sort of business?

When I lived in Norderstedt, just outside Hamburg, one of the waiters from the local Greek restaurant decided he wanted to open a wine bar/cocktail bar. He rented a place and done it all out himself and as far as I know he is doing pretty well. I know he had a bit of savings but to be honest I don't think it was that much and he did it all on quite a tight budget.

I don't get there much, but there is a quite popular Irish pub in central Augsburg that serves Mexican grub. So clearly this is a possible winning combination!!

My issues/concerns with a pub type business is the same issues I had in the early 90's when I owned a small estate agency. These are both businesses that are almost 100% reliant on their location, and the needs/desires of the local population.

So for example if business is quieter than you would like (isn't it always) you are reliant on appealing to the local punters. You cannot branch out in any way - nobodoy is gonna travel very far just to get to your bar for a pint (plus the drink/drive issues). So if the locals don't like your style/management/beer/ you are ****ed.


http://www.startups.co.uk/Restaurant.cPtqJhdoS63Ijg.html

So I don't wish to be a misery, but the restaurant/pub business has a pretty high risk of failure.

On this thread: Thoughts on starting a small business

Was chatting about opening an internet/gaming cafe as an idea, and funnily enough a good mate of mine in New Zealand has just taken one over, and seems to be doing quite well.

Might kinda combine your skills a little?

Guinness and Doom combined.

I hear you! That's the first thing I said to my mate. It's all about the location. We are aware it's a big risk but we are willing to give it a gamble. I think with enough research and a good business plan there is potential there.

I can give you some advice.

I came out of the same sort of background as you to open a pub. I have no time at the moment, but I'll send you a PM at a later stage.

Thanks Hazza, was only just after sending you a PM!!

Just make sure its a no-smoking pub.

The Irish pub here in Berlin at Europacentre is pretty popular. They do karaoke on mondays which is popular among crowds... there was also this one pub in Dresden which went by the name Irish Pub and it was also pretty nice - the owner was from London or Manchester or something, nice fellow.

If you are familiar with a niche, get into it. I suggest against opening yet another generic bar!

There are already three Irish pubs in Hamburg as i'm sure you know and another tried to open up in 2005 just along and opposite Altona rail station in 2005 ( can't remember the name) but went bust in about 3 months of opening.

Location definitely the key and if you could get one opened somewhere around Altona bahnhof platz near to Mercado and the serve yourself Asian / Thai place i'm sure you would do ok. There is a bar directly above it that gets busy even though the service is atrocious.

Get in touch with some investment companies, get together a convincing business plan and see if they will look for investors for you. But you have to be very convincing and professional for people to risk their capital on you.

I'm not very familiar with this part of the business. What sort of control would investors have over the business, if any?

None at all, that's the beauty. You form a Limited Partnership where you are the General Partner and hold the majority, they are Limited Partners entitled to dividends once the place starts paying. But that is a very amateurish explanation, call them for more detailed info. I don't know any companies in Hamburg, unfortunately.

Good to know! Thanks for the tip!

Yes, that would be brilliant in Germany. Go for a niche market of sanctimonious californians. Genius.

You could just serve tofu too ...and imported lagers.

The Kiez is already over-krauted so any new business that's not out of the ordinary won't be long-lived there. You should find better opportunities in places like Eimsbüttel, Eppendorf, Winterhude, Schanzenviertel - depending on which clientele you want to attract. An Irish copy of Christos & K (Stellinger Weg) could go down very well, serving beers, Irish stews, ulster fries, oysters, dublin bay prawns etc..

The Irish bar in Altona was Brodericks. I think the location was poor and they didn't have Sky TV for the footy/rugby etc. I think these things are key as it was actually a nice place and had good Guiness & food.

The bar above the Thai place (Bok) is called Morty's and like Dave says is busy although the service is bobbins. If you give people good service in HH, you'll be laughing.

As Didsbury mentioned, I'd definitely check out the outskirts of town like Eimsbüttel, Damtor etc. The Uni is at Damtor and you'd have a steady stream of students (as long as you gave a discount). Would be great if you picked Stellingen as we need a decent local.

Best of luck, pal.

Isn't Dammtor close to the St. Pauli grounds? That would be a good crowd, they're close frieds with Celtic and like anything Gaelic/Irish/Scottish.

Nope. Dammtor is between Gänsemarkt and Rotherbaum, St. Pauli is more or less the Reeperbahn area.

Yup, and St. Pauli already has an Irish Pub, the Shamrock.


Sure it's about the location... but it still doesn't guarantee it'll be a success - look at e.g. the Naked Turtle: good location, very nice interior, genuine and nice bar staff, excellent food - but veeery quiet most of the time. I really don't know why.
There's a few people who used to go to Finnegan's who drop in there sometimes, and they try to keep the place busy by having some do's there, even Finnegan's Golf Society meets there after tournaments...
Doesn't help much, tho.

The Naked Turtle is in a nice place near the lake but it's still a bit off the beaten track imo

Finnegans is in a superb location though right near the Rathaus and benefits from the fests held on the rathausplatz which is why i think somewhere on the platz at Altona would also do well, not to mention all the brits getting off the bus there from Airbus.

Turtle: There's still a lot of other places round the corner which keeps people going to the area..., could also be that the area is a bit too posh for a down-to-earth-pub...dunno.

Finnegans: correct, the location is superb - but Finnegan's is also a very good example for how important a good barstaff/management is. It's pretty quiet (compared to former times, and even compared to last summer) these days, even though the Weinfest is on the Rathausmarkt at the moment.
So you can see: there's certain people who are the glue that keep things together, and if these people leave...
Well, at least the quiz was a bit more crowded yesterday, we are slowly getting back to normal amount of teams (14/up)...

Sorry, I was thinking Millerntor. Haven't been to HH for 9 years, much too long! I did, however, have a great time at Finnegan's Wake.

Just stumbled across this thread and got curious:
Any news here?

Still planning to open a pub?

@Jester - if you still planning to do this... have you ever run a pub before or even worked in one... I ran and worked in pubs for about 10years in the UK and I can tell you its not the sort of job you retire into later in life... its bloody hard work! Fun, but bloody hard work all the same.

Good luck in your venture if you still doing it.

Might be an idea to try working in one first. To see if it suits and to learn how it all works. Well run pubs are hard work plus it's unsociable hours. Don't let me put you off.

No, don't let them put you off.

I'd love to have a good new pub in town, in a nice area, which is easy to reach with public transport, but maybe also offers a few parking spaces...

Just to update you on the situation in Altona:
There's Titanic, as far as I know run by an Irishman (Mat, correct me if I'm wrong, Michael's Irish?) but not exactly a traditional Irish bar.
It's not the neatest pub, but I like it, higgledy-piggledy of furniture, some old sofas, quite comfy, the food is great, live-music on weekends - but as far as I know not so many native speakers there (at least not on the occasions we've been there).
Think they're doing quite well, maybe because it's a St. Pauli / Celtic pub
(Well at least I know a few St. Paulianers who go there)

There's also McLeans Scottish Pub.
The pub is very nice, also some nice sofas. Didn't taste the food, but it's supposed to be good.
Have only been there on one occasion, an expat meet up, so it was quite crowed, but it seemed to me as if it's not really crowded normally. Correct me if I'm wrong.
They are close to Fabrik, but still a bit off the track, that might be the reason.

Jester-If you opened a pub somewhere here i would definitely pop in regularly!!!
If you have a good business plan than do it!No one can guarentee success with these things-my parents owned a restaurant in SA and i am quite familiar with the ins and outs that...-but if its what you want to do than plan the best you can and see how it goes!

Still looking into it, taking our time as we don't want to half do it! The other lad in this with me actually lives beside McLeans. Nice looking bar, although I've yet to venture in there myself! It's just down the street from Fabrik. Anytime I've walked passed there have been very few people in there, even on weekends. It's very much off the beaten track, i'm surprised they are able to operate!

We had a look at one location in Altona, owner is thinking of selling. Would need a lot of work and they have no draught system installed. But it's a very good location with good potential!

You need a gimmick to pull the punters in. Naked barmaids springs readily to mind.

And why not naked barmen??

Exactly what I thought - it's really nice, but it kinda puts you off going there, if nobody's in there, doesn't it.
I was also asking myself how they survive on that corner.


Sounds good, as Dave said, if you're close to Altona station, bingo...!

As mentioned earlier, this bar "Broderick's" in Altona was quite nice, but also just a bit off the tracks not really far from Altona station, but not in the area where all the other pubs and restaurants are, and that was the major hickup I suppose. The bar (imho) was quite nice, huge and also a big stage - but the two times I've been there, there were abt. 8-10 other people, even when they had live music.
One other thing: the bar staff was really crap. They had to serve 10 people, and it took them AGES! And there were three of them!!!
So apart from the location, a well trained and organised, friendly and efficient bar staff is essential.

That would be an idea!
Marktlücke gefunden!

Coz I don't need a job, and coz I don't think that way.

Well then at least we are spared that sight!!

I have it on good authority that me naked smeared with Marmite is the ultimate knee-trembler to Bavarian birds. You ask don riina's missus.

Bavarians. Yepp.

But we are talking about a pub in Hamburg...

Well ... what do the non-Bavarian birds say? There ain't too many of them here in HH where Jester is thinking of opening his pub!

Do you think these non-Bavaria birds have no tastebuds and wouldn't go for Marmite?

Who said anything about tasting the marmite? I know their eyes are pretty good-so i am not convinced that they (or you) would make to the tasting part!

You mean???

You mean???

You mean that you would have all that Marmite in front of you and WOULDN'T have a taste???

I'm not really a marmite girl-i'm more for Bovril...(Not sure if thats only available inSA).
But hey...think of all those Bavarian ladies..

If I'm drunk enough I'll lower my standards and use Bovril.

If I'M drunk enough i'll lower my standards and waste my good bovril on you!