Cologne vs. Edinburgh vs. Paris, city comparisons

Hi,

I'm a web designer who works from home and left the US a few years ago to see what life outside the United States might be like. I know some basic French, hardly any German, and obviously speak English natively.

I currently live in Paris, France. I've enjoyed my time here, although I've yet to make any French friends aside from the women I have met and dated. According to most ex-pats, it is extremely difficult to make French Parisian friends (esp. if you do not speak flawlessly fluent French) because they are insular in that way. That's okay with me since I've met enough cool international people (mostly through my roommates) to spend my free time with.

However, I am at a crossroads in terms of where I'd like to settle and put down some roots.

The biggest factors are language, cost of living, social interactions/isolation, and to a certain extent, career prospects.

I recently visited Cologne and found it to be a great city. Although language still remained a barrier, I at least found a few more people who spoke great English, and the cost of living was a lot more affordable. On the other hand, I've spent time in Germany before visiting friends and I have heard living in Germany can become hard and depressing (reserved people, hard to make friends, and not as many international people as say Paris for you to be able to find a niche scene). This is important for me since I don't have work or school to make easy friends with.

I have not yet been to Edinburgh but I heard it's a beautiful, friendly city and the best option in the UK.

Can any of you recommend or give any thoughts/advice on the three cities?

Is Cologne truly a wonderful city to live in or did I just get a tourist glimpse of it?

Is there any of the three you would choose if you were in my position?

Thanks.

I've been to Edinburgh a few times and stayed there for a few weeks, and really love it. It depends on your personal tastes, on your hobbies, what you're looking for. What are your priorities from a city apart from cost of living?

Köln is not that nice in my honest opinion. They did a terrible job of reconstructing it. Attemping a modern look, which now looks awful. I have no idea when the hauptbahnhof was built, but the guy that decided it would be a good idea to build next to centerpiece of the city (that fantastic cathedral) should either be shot out of a cannon, or if he is already dead, dug up and then shot out of a cannon. There are nicer cities in Germany, perhaps you need to do a bit of a tour before making any move?

I wouldn't go to Edinburgh, even though the city is lovely, but thats cause I like the sunshine.

I actually visited Berlin, Cologne, Hannover, Bielefeld, Lubeck, Luneburg, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, and Heidelberg.

Out of all of them, I liked Heidelberg the best, but perhaps because it seemed so friendly (mostly students), open-minded, and English-friendly (because of the US army presence nearby perhaps?)

It did seem quite small though...

Köln is a great city. The nightlife is great, the people are friendly and much more accomodating than the Munich residents. Plus you have Karnival every year and it's close to France and Belgium. English is widely spoken/understood there as well...

I would take Edinburgh, love that place. I find the people extrememly friendly. Köln, just doensn't do it for me. I think you wouldn't like the sedate life after living in Paris where it is so lively.

I come from near Edinburgh and went to school there so I guess I am a wee bit biased. I actually left Scotland at the age of 18 vowing never to come back, but 8 yeras later I met the man of my dreams who persuaded me to move with him back to my home city. And much to my surprise Edinburgh was utterly fantastic!

I had always known it was breathtakingly beautiful, but actually living there you begin to appreciate that very special quality of life is afforded by this charming little city. The standard of living is generally high in the centre with fantastic rental accommodation and relatively central affordable homes. Tennement living is the norm from the fine stone 18th century piles of the 'New' Town to the spiral staircases, turrets and garret windows of the High street and 'Old' town, to the fine red sandstone tennements of Marchmont and the funky warehouse conversions of Leith.

Eating out is generally excellent with seafood in particular standing out - every street has at least one fishmonger selling the very best of Arctic, Atlantic and North Sea fish -much of it caught within 24 hours. The Old Town in particular has some great little restaurants and great wee pubs down little wynds of f the high street. i have to say that the Old Town is my favourite part of the city and I lived there for three of the four years I was there.

The great wide open in the shape of the wild Lamermoors to the south, the Pentland Hills to the West and the sea to the East mean it is easy to get away from the city. And right in the city itself lies the Queen's Park and Arthur's Seat - an extinct volcano!

Every August the world#s largest arts festival takes place in Edinburgh with every pub , basement, church, school or even the occasional sitting room being taken over as temporary venues to house the thousands of theatre groups, bands, orchestras, art exhibitions, happenings and all-what that fill the city for a month. The atmosphere oin the City during August is incredible.

Likewise at Hogmanay (New Year) and Beltane (May Day) there are other smaller scale festivals.

Temperaturewise it has relatively cool summers but by the same token fairly gentle winters as it is effectively a maritime city. Daylength is a plus though in the summer with the sun not actually setting til after 11pm (in the winter of course the days are very short indeed)

I left because of my work, but one day I do hope to move back. I will be going there on Thursday for a few days and I can't wait.

don't go to Heidelberg. you'll get so bored. it's only English-friendly because of all the damn tourists! because of the military? ha! rumor has it, they're pulling out sooner rather than later anyhow.
why haven't you visited munich? it's cheaper than paris and you'll not need a lick of german to get around. seriously. there are tooooo many expats here who have survived for many o year without more than knowing how to order a beer and haxen.

oh, i should edit. the advantage with Cologne is, you are close to Duesseldorf & Bonn, even Essen is a nice, quiet city. Köln & Dü-dorf are pretty big, so you'll have lots to choose from.

some pictures of Edinburgh Old Town here

Maybe not to get from point A to point B, but to live normally? I disagree.

alot of people have lived here along time in IT or with British Aerospace and don't speak a word, and do just fine.

as long as you don't want loads of sun and warmth then I can definitely recommend Edinburgh

I was curious about one thing. How different did you find your interactions with German men and women before and after you learned fluent German?

I ask because I know speaking only English, I found it extremely difficult to break through and establish good rapport with the Germans I met during my travels in Germany. They're certainly nice, but remain at a distance. Of course, quite a few don't speak any English at all.

In France, most ex-pats will tell you they almost never meet French natives of the same gender for friendship (unless via work). Women ex-pats meet French men, male ex-pats meet French women, for the obvious reasons...

Is this any different in say Cologne?

He works from home so his situation would be very different from that of the people you mention. As he said in his first post:

isn't that what TT is for then?

I can't read his mind, but from reading his posts (not to mention the thread subtitle) I get the impression that he wishes to integrate as opposed to just being part of the expat scene.

no probs. most germans have some if not a lot of english. if you make an effort to learn german & you're insistent, they will be kind & be patient while you're trying to speak their lingo.

yup! live normally i might add.

don't be so naive kay. it's sad, but true. there are too many expats to count than have been here 10+ years with no german and they do live "normal" lives. look at the turks and whatever other ethnic groups who have been year 30+ years & speak pidgin german.

well, if he learned french, then he might have been able to integrate better there. won't be any different here. integration is a state of mind, but we can debate that somewhere else.

i came to germany initially so that i could get to know my then german boyfriend in his own language. learning and understand german helped me understand him a whole lot more. i could then explain his attempt at "bad" humor (in german he was funny) and his argumentative tone, which as an american, i never grew fond of. in fact i despised it in the end.

i got lots of points for speaking german with a cute american accent (from men of course) and lots of laughs when i made mistakes (confusing shimmernd with schimmel, for example), which gets old after awhile. germans don't expect americans, hell, even the british to know foreign languages so any german you can is like you being blessed!

do people open up more? nope. whether or not you speak fluent or not, you'll still need a long time to make friends because in a german point of view, a friend is not something you make in a few months. it's a long, trust testing process.

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. In my view, living in a place "10+ years" without being able to order a meal, phone a plumber, buy a train ticket, etc. does not constitute a "normal" life.

haven't been to Edinburgh or Paris in years but I rate Cologne as one of the party towns of Germany. it is an ugly looking city but people let their hair down and are very approachable (if not friendly) there ...i believe you should get by alright in english as it's quite a media-driven youthful city ...there is the odd multinational there too like Ford cars. and i have to add that the female talent is pretty damn good there

what i also like about the place (also in Frankfurt & Berlin) is the kiosk-culture where you just buy a bottle of lager to swig along the street ...you don't really see that in Munich. the city (cost of living) is cheap compared to Munich and assume so compared to Paris and Edinburgh...

As a (failed) academic I've had plenty of opportunity to travel and (sometimes) meet interesting people. Stop-overs have included London, Paris, Darmstadt, Jena and for the last 5 years, Cologne.
Paris was special because our first daughter was born there, but I sympathise & agree that it's extremely difficult to socialise with Parisians: our contacts came largely through the very active & successful expat mums' club. Cologne is fine for us for various reasons, albeit mainly to do with the kids' school & social lives! It's a cosmopolitan, extrovert and sometimes frivolous place (Carnival drives us up the wall), but also surprisingly anglophile. Have often been wrong-footed by people trying out their English on me after recognising the accent (though it's not that bad, surely). Personally would prefer to live in Bonn, which has a lot to offer for a town of it's size.
I'd say learning German is a must in the long term, but plenty of courses on offer at adult-edu. schools etc because of the large immigrant populations (Italy, Greece, Turkey and us lot).

Just curious, what do you mean by surprisingly anglophile? Do you mean there's a segment of the population that's quite good in English and enjoy speaking it with foreigners?

And how did you find London by the way? I found it enormously expensive and the quality of life not very high in general...

To Q1: Yes, they do like to show off their English, but are also quite proud to tell you of their holidays in Scotland & Wales (ie. countries which are not the same thing as England), and that the best beaches are to be found in Cornwall.

To Q2: These days London is a tough place to live without a 6-figure salary. Still have friends & colleagues there who struggle on their London-weighted lecturer's pay (anywhere from 25-40k depending on experience). Just visited as a tourist last month during the heat wave and was simply hemorraging cash on food & drink. I lived there as a student for 5 years but was only able to stay reasonably central (Notting Hill) by sharing a house with half a dozen others. Commuting range stretches as far as Bristol or Cambridge these days, which are not cheap either.

Any of you guys know if ex-pats are happy with their experiences in the Netherlands versus Germany?

Hey confused chuck...you should pm fellow Toytowner butterbean. a fellow native American, well not Native American as in pow wow American but you get my drift. Anyway butterbean spent a few years in Munich and has recently relocated to Paris. Probably has some good insights for you.

I know different people who *love* many of the cities you've mentioned, for different reasons. What is it exactly your looking for? If its friendly, welcoming, affordable and English speaking why not move back to the US? Can't stand the US politics - hell think about Canada. They've got beautiful cities and great cost of living, allegedly. Canadians are hot too.

The Netherlands & Germany are no so different. Well, the Dutch have better English than the Germans

My sister used to live in Amsterdam and loved it. Have you gone off Edinburgh then?

For now, I've sort of scrapped Edinburgh, only because it's a bit isolated from the rest of Europe and I'd have to pay for things in pounds (bad when you make dollars).

It is on my list of places to check out though.

I'm narrowing it down to Cologne, Paris, and I may go check out Amsterdam again even though I found it terribly touristy when I last visited.

I guess if I get a real job, London's a possibility...but it just doesn't appeal to me that much right now.

hi. just caught on to this thread. read with interest as i just moved to munich after almost 6 years in cologne. i have to agree with a lot that has been said: cologne really is an ugly city, but has a lot to offer in terms of nightlife and city-life. i found the people to be quite friendly and open. as an american working at an american company, i was lazy with my german and i think that did limit my interactions a bit, but i still managed to make quite good friends--male and female, german and other nationalities--and i think quite a few will be friends for life.
though i never lived in paris, i visited often and--as much as i enjoyed cologne--would think that cologne might be a bit of a come-down after "the city of lights." cologne is not nearly as international as i feel paris is. finding a good variety of restaurants, for example, is harder in cologne. but maybe that´s because the french put a higher priority on food than, well, anyone...
amsterdam was also a frequent weekend destination, and i really enjoy that city. aside from its shady/touristy areas, it really is beautiful place. full of cafes and small boutiques along the canals. and yes, it always was a relief to know that using english there was never a problem.
that´s my 2 cents. if you want to know more about cologne, you can pm me. i have often asked myself similar questions about location and future (as many expats have, i´m sure), and i think that in the end the location matters less than we think. i think it´s more about our readiness to take on a new life and new challenges. every place will have its pros and cons (after i´ve already gone on and on about the cities... )

a jml- you are the best!

There is a huge immigration boom going in Canada at the moment for those in construction and building/design if anybody is interested.

The point is that in Munich, you can do all these things without speaking German..

I know nothing about Cologne, but I think you should check out a few cities before deciding to stay in any one. Certainly in Munich you could very easily meet other expats due to this forum.

Hi Tiim,

Thanks a lot for your thoughts on Cologne. I appreciate it.

What are your thoughts on Munich compared to Cologne by the way? Do you find the better more closed and more foreigner-weary than the Koeln folk?

I have to admit, I really loved Cologne when I visited for a weekend. While I did pick up the traditional German reserve from the men and women, it seemed quite friendly (again, compared to the rest of Germany). Heidelberg still remains my favorite friendly little town in DE though.

On the other hand, I also noticed that Cologne not that big of a city, and it certainly didn't have the energy and variety you find here in Paris. I don't know, guess I'm still in turmoil.

I added Vienna to the list to check out and will be spending a few days there this weekend. Have any of you been?

Thanks!

As UK citizen I have now been living 25 years in Northern Germany...

It is easy to make friends here? Not so easy - but then I dont make
friends that easy in UK either.

But I consider myself integrated to a fair extent - I learnt to speak (but no write)
Germany by joining a local sporting club & whilst learning the sport I also
learnt German (but I cannot really write it). Upshot was, I made a lot
of friends in that club, and represent Schleswig-Holstein for the sport on national
committees... (glutton for work).

A couple of years later I met a Hamburg girl who became my wife - in fact we
speak German at home even though she speaks good English. 22 years later...

So its worth the effort to integrate but it takes time - or rather took me
quite a lot of time... At least through the sport I make freinds whereever
I turn up even though my accent causes curious looks & questions...

An yes - I enjoy visits to Munich although I havnt been there for a couple of years.

Great story HEM.

I suppose you and others are right.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter where you are, it's what you make of it.

Guess I keep thinking things might be greener and a little bit more fun in the city just yonder (e.g. Cologne or Vienna) right now.

And I was talking about people being or not being able to do those and other everyday things in the language of the country
they are living in.

since it sounds like you are bound by nothing, you may even try brussels. by train it is 2 hrs from koln, 1.5 hrs from paris, and 3 hrs from london, so you could take some time to check them all out. plus they speak a lot of languages there.
i think koln, paris and edinbugh are all great. thing about edinburg is it is less central, and even colder, although beautiful and lots of fun. brussels is like a cheaper paris, not so exciting and pretty but the food is even better than paris.
the thing about paris is it has everything. you can buy the ny times there. i don't know where else you can buy the ny times in europe. you may want to look into this important factor.

I come from Edinburgh but I left because of the weather. Otherwise the place kicks ass. just depends

The Germans are reserved whether you speak the language or not. I am completely fleunt, and if anything that hinders.

I live in Bonn, and after I finish my current incredily lucrative contract I wouldn't stay here in a million years. Friendship as we might understand it doesn't exist. If you get yourself a German partner then life can be pretty good as it would be if you lived in a cabin on the serengetti, as long as you see the Germans as wildlife rather than human beings who might want to form a sincere friendship with you. I find 85% of other foreigner agree with my assessment.

DO NOT COME TO GERMANY!!! unless you are prepared to live amongst other foreigners!

I guess I'm one of the 15% then . .

paris is the most beatifull, but expensive and the people are difficult to get along with.

cologne is friendlier, cosmolplitan as well but not like Paris

I prefer to live in Cologne and enjoy Paris on a vacation once in a while

but there are more better cities for you I guess:

London (you cant get cosmopolitan more than here)
Dubai (international, cheaper living costs, wonderfull weather, great job opportunities)
Munich (if you think about germany, actually its better looking than Cologne but more expensive and people are a known to be arrogant)
Toronto, Montreal (I just like Canada and canadians)

I'm in the other 15%.

I've been in the Bonn area for 13 years now and haven't found it unfriendly.

Hi,

I can only state my personal experience.

I have French education, from Canada, France, mostly Paris was my target to move to permenantly one day, every summer I went to Paris for vacation and dreamt of my move. In the meantime, I had visited Cologne as a tourist, and after few days of visit I was bored and changed my destination. in 1998 I had a job opportunity in Cologne, and I was very discourraged and disappointed that my Paris application didn't come through. I came to Cologne, expecting to be miserable for 3 years during the contract, and not too long afterwards I fell in love with it. Once you live outside the tourist area, I find people are more friendly than in Paris or even Montreal, I did not speak the language, but I did make friends. 3 years after I moved here, we opened a branch in Paris, and I was frequently going for meetings, and I thought perhaps it would be more practical if I moved there, so I went to observe the city I love so much, how is it when I live there and not only a tourist, and that's when I knew Paris will not be a home for me, even if I speak the language fluently and I do have ex-colleagues and childhood friends.

In my 9 years of living here, I have had only 1 incident of discrimination. At the moment I too work from home as a designer, it is tough to make new friends when you are mostly indoors, so you will definetly have to join some clubs and activities.

Good luck with your plans